Abraham has not received the promise. Paul says the promise made to Abraham was that he should be heir of the world. (that makes me think of another thread, what world?) That within it self would require eternal life, and Abraham has yet to receive the promise, however the promise was to Abraham and to his one seed, Christ Gal. 3:16, therefore it was his seed Christ who has inherited the promise, see Gal. 3:18,19 and it was through faith he received the promise, which I have been trying to tell you all for some time, see Gal. 3:22-25 Before the faith came, the elect were under the law , a schoolmaster which concluded them under sin subject to death. After the faith came, then the elect were no longer under the schoolmaster, under the law and are now under grace which is the eternal life God the Father resurrected his Son Jesus with never to die again.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
If the Church is spiritual Israel...
- Thread starter thomas15
- Start date
Abraham has not received the promise. Paul says the promise made to Abraham was that he should be heir of the world. (that makes me think of another thread, what world?) That within it self would require eternal life, and Abraham has yet to receive the promise, however the promise was to Abraham and to his one seed, Christ Gal. 3:16, therefore it was his seed Christ who has inherited the promise, see Gal. 3:18,19 and it was through faith he received the promise, which I have been trying to tell you all for some time, see Gal. 3:22-25 Before the faith came, the elect were under the law , a schoolmaster which concluded them under sin subject to death. After the faith came, then the elect were no longer under the schoolmaster, under the law and are now under grace which is the eternal life God the Father resurrected his Son Jesus with never to die again.
Originally Posted by Van View Post
Hi Thomas15, Hebrews 11:39-40. And all these [OT Saints] having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised because God had provided something better for us [NT Saints] so that apart from us, they should not be made perfect.
This is what Hebrews 11:39-40 says: Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
Heb 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. NKJV
If you go back and read Genesis as revmitchell urges, you see the actual promises that Jehovah made to Abraham. I asked the question before, what did Jehovah promise Abraham?
Hebrews 11:39-40 is saying that Abraham and his seed (and those saints also mentioned also in Hebrews) died without receiving their promises, that is the land and the nation. The land. In order for Abraham to finally receive the land as promised he must be resurrected. How else could he receive the promise as made to him by Jehovah? He has to be resurrected.
The question in my mind is, are we looking to be resurrected as Jesus was or is there no resurrection as the sadducees taught Luke 20:27-39 ?
From my post about Melchisedec.
I have stated in another thread of how man has negated the importance of the resurrection to life of Jesus the Christ and therefore in reality he also doesn't believe his own resurrection is of any importance, but for a body.
We had better be resurrected as he was or if alive at his coming quickened as he was/is. ! Cor. 15:50----
Jesus is The True Israel. There is only one church throughout all time that will assemble on the last day. it is made up of all elect saints since Adam, since hebrews Israel was a theocracy, and since Christian Israel[church] is still being assembled as the gospel goes world wide.
To seperate hebrews Israel from all other saints now is contrary to scripture.
To seperate hebrews Israel from all other saints now is contrary to scripture.
Jesus is The True Israel. There is only one church throughout all time that will assemble on the last day. it is made up of all elect saints since Adam, since hebrews Israel was a theocracy, and since Christian Israel[church] is still being assembled as the gospel goes world wide.
To seperate hebrews Israel from all other saints now is contrary to scripture.
Aww man, I was going to nail you on this but then I remembered you agreed with me on the other post. So now I feel obligated to give you a pass. Oh well, maybe next time.
convicted1
Guest
Jesus is The True Israel. There is only one church throughout all time that will assemble on the last day. it is made up of all elect saints since Adam, since hebrews Israel was a theocracy, and since Christian Israel[church] is still being assembled as the gospel goes world wide.
To seperate hebrews Israel from all other saints now is contrary to scripture.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Bronconagurski
New Member
Jesus is The True Israel. There is only one church throughout all time that will assemble on the last day. it is made up of all elect saints since Adam, since hebrews Israel was a theocracy, and since Christian Israel[church] is still being assembled as the gospel goes world wide.
To seperate hebrews Israel from all other saints now is contrary to scripture.
Really? Then why did Jesus say, "upon this rock I will build my church"? If the church has been established since Adam, he would have said "upon this rock I have built my church".
convicted1
Guest
Really? Then why did Jesus say, "upon this rock I will build my church"? If the church has been established since Adam, he would have said "upon this rock I have built my church".
Not all Israel is Israel(Romans 9:6). Only a remnant of Israel was saved, eventhough the number of Israelites that came out from Egypt was in the millions. And even those who were born during their 40 years in the wilderness, only a remnant was saved. This remnant was the church in the wilderness(Acts 7:38).
Acts 7:31:38
31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,
32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Greek word used for church in Acts 7:38: ekklēsia ἐκκλησία
G1577
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
b) the assembly of the Israelites
c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
d) in a Christian sense
1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
Jesus had the church in mind from the "get go". The "called out assembly" of Israelites constituted the church in the wilderness, just like the Church(again, a called out assembly) of today. In the OT, only a remnant was saved(the church in the wilderness), and in the NT, only a remnant is saved(the Church). Jesus' works on the cross brought this to fruition. He didn't go to the cross, and afterward set the church up. It was set up before He died and was risen, and He brought it to pass when He came forth from the grave and ascended back to the Father in the Cloud.
Aww man, I was going to nail you on this but then I remembered you agreed with me on the other post. So now I feel obligated to give you a pass. Oh well, maybe next time.
Mitch,
You can offer scriptural correction at anytime....I welcome it.
Let me know what I can clarify for you :1_grouphug:
I was also taught the premill scheme originally...but I understand that historically others have seen it this other way.
Last edited by a moderator:
Really? Then why did Jesus say, "upon this rock I will build my church"? If the church has been established since Adam, he would have said "upon this rock I have built my church".
Bski,
You are correct in quoting Jesus in mt 18. Indeed he is building His church.
Everything that happened in the OT was the shadow of the reality.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.[/B]
Jesus and the Apostles were foundational to the final building of the church. which extends to include all believers who were already in the Kingdom...having entered in times past-
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
all come into the Church...the Christian Israel...even those from the shadow ...hebrew Israel....
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Ot saints and Nt saints...form the church.
Ot saints looked forward through faith to the time Jesus builds His church...
we all form the one true Israel because Jesus is the True Israel ,the Covenant Son....
Ot Israel is the type-
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Jesus the reality;
And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
it all happens according to plan;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Last edited by a moderator:
Mitch,
You can offer scriptural correction at anytime....I welcome it.
Let me know what I can clarify for you :1_grouphug:
I will when you do. Have not seen it from you yet.
I will when you do. Have not seen it from you yet.
We posted at the same time...I just answered bski:wavey:
Bski,
You are correct in quoting Jesus in mt 18. Indeed he is building His church.
Everything that happened in the OT was the shadow of the reality.
Are you suggesting that the OT church was a shadow of the NT church?
This is what Hebrews 11:39-40 says: Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
Heb 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. NKJV
If you go back and read Genesis as revmitchell urges, you see the actual promises that Jehovah made to Abraham. I asked the question before, what did Jehovah promise Abraham?
Hebrews 11:39-40 is saying that Abraham and his seed (and those saints also mentioned also in Hebrews) died without receiving their promises, that is the land and the nation. The land. In order for Abraham to finally receive the land as promised he must be resurrected. How else could he receive the promise as made to him by Jehovah? He has to be resurrected.
The question in my mind is, are we looking to be resurrected as Jesus was or is there no resurrection as the sadducees taught Luke 20:27-39 ?
What has waiting to be made perfect according to the promise have to do with the land and nation?
Lets look at Acts 3:25-26 (NASB):
25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning you from your wicked ways.”
Thus according to scripture, the promise that through Abraham's seed (singular) all the nations would be blessed is the promise of salvation. Thus Genesis 22:18 reads:
18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
To be made "perfect" is to be made faultless, i.e. body of sin removed in the circumcision of Christ. See Hebrews 12:23.
Bronconagurski
New Member
Greek word used for church in Acts 7:38: ekklēsia ἐκκλησία
I love the way the preterists use the ESV usually, but when they want to make a point that uses the exact word they are looking for, they use the KJV.
The NASB translate the Greek word congregation. It is the Hebrew equivalent of the word in this verse. Exodus 12:3 (NASB)
3 "Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, 'On the tenth of this month they are each one to take a lamb for themselves, according to their fathers' households, a lamb for each household.
Hebrew Word: עֵדָה
Transliterated Word: edah (417a)
Root: from 3259;
Definition: congregation:--
List of English Words and Number of Times Used
assembly (5),
band (2),
company (13),
congregation (126),
congregation's (1),
herd (1),
swarm (1).
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.
While the Greek word can be translated church, it is not always, and you have erred in this case.
I love the way the preterists use the ESV usually, but when they want to make a point that uses the exact word they are looking for, they use the KJV.
The NASB translate the Greek word congregation. It is the Hebrew equivalent of the word in this verse. Exodus 12:3 (NASB)
3 "Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, 'On the tenth of this month they are each one to take a lamb for themselves, according to their fathers' households, a lamb for each household.
Hebrew Word: עֵדָה
Transliterated Word: edah (417a)
Root: from 3259;
Definition: congregation:--
List of English Words and Number of Times Used
assembly (5),
band (2),
company (13),
congregation (126),
congregation's (1),
herd (1),
swarm (1).
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.
While the Greek word can be translated church, it is not always, and you have erred in this case.
Genesis 35..NKJV
Gen 35:10 And God said to him, "Your name is Jacob; your name shall not be called Jacob anymore, but Israel shall be your name." So He called his name Israel.
Gen 35:11 Also God said to him: "I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body.
Gen 35:12 The land which I gave Abraham and Isaac I give to you; and to your descendants after you I give this land."
There it is right there.
I tie that promise into the one God made, as to having isreal reborn as a spiritual nation in Ezekiel...
When Yeshua returns, and sets up His reign on the earth,m, that full land promised to them gets to tham at that time!
Greek word used for church in Acts 7:38: ekklēsia ἐκκλησία
I love the way the preterists use the ESV usually, but when they want to make a point that uses the exact word they are looking for, they use the KJV.
The NASB translate the Greek word congregation. It is the Hebrew equivalent of the word in this verse. Exodus 12:3 (NASB)
3 "Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, 'On the tenth of this month they are each one to take a lamb for themselves, according to their fathers' households, a lamb for each household.
Hebrew Word: עֵדָה
Transliterated Word: edah (417a)
Root: from 3259;
Definition: congregation:--
List of English Words and Number of Times Used
assembly (5),
band (2),
company (13),
congregation (126),
congregation's (1),
herd (1),
swarm (1).
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.
While the Greek word can be translated church, it is not always, and you have erred in this case.
Are the OT believers in the Church that Jesus built?
Are they part of the heavenly Body, or will they be in the kingdom yeshua gives to isreal when he returns?
What has waiting to be made perfect according to the promise have to do with the land and nation?
Lets look at Acts 3:25-26 (NASB):
25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning you from your wicked ways.”
Thus according to scripture, the promise that through Abraham's seed (singular) all the nations would be blessed is the promise of salvation. Thus Genesis 22:18 reads:
18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
To be made "perfect" is to be made faultless, i.e. body of sin removed in the circumcision of Christ. See Hebrews 12:23.
Can one who has been made faultless walking around in an earthly house of tabernacle subject to corruption be construed as, "perfect?"
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. This being relative to inheriting the kingdom of God.
What does it mean to inherit the kingdom of God?
How are all the nations of the earth, blessed in his seed? That is just what all must needed to have taken place for all the nations to be blessed?
Bronconagurski
New Member
Are the OT believers in the Church that Jesus built?
Are they part of the heavenly Body, or will they be in the kingdom yeshua gives to isreal when he returns?
No, the OT believers are not in the church that Jesus built. When Jesus returns, Israel will get the land that God has promised.
No, the OT believers are not in the church that Jesus built. When Jesus returns, Israel will get the land that God has promised.
exactly! that is why isreal and the Church are NOT same in the plans of God!
convicted1
Guest
No, the OT believers are not in the church that Jesus built. When Jesus returns, Israel will get the land that God has promised.
God's promise is to seed, not seeds. There are not two seeds that get two promises, but one seed gets the one promise.