Featured If the Church is spiritual Israel...

There were many saints before the nation of Israel.

The Ot theocracy was God's people at that time. Everything about the worship was in type and shadow.Hebrews 8-10.

Israel is five things in scripture.

Jacob was called Israel.

The 12 tribes were called Israel

The ten northern tribes were called Israel

The Servant of the Lord is called Israel

The church is called the Israel of God.
Anyone belonging to the church is part of the Israel of God.
The promised seed is Jesus. Anyone who is in the church is In Jesus.

 

Which part of that answered my question?

 

Pitchback

I have asked this before but you continue to refuse to indicate whether you are referring to our spiritual perfection, all born again believers have been made, past tense, perfect, or to our resurrection in glorified bodies. You continue to mix and match these very different concepts to muddy the water. Are you trying to obscure truth?

As indicated in many scriptures, to be made perfect is to be placed spiritually in Christ and undergo the circumcision of Christ. Do you deny this basic truth? Did you read Hebrews 12:23?

 

Agree. There is only one physical Israel, and they will inherit the land. There is only one spiritual seed, and that includes Gentiles who become heirs of God.

John McArthur puts it well:

The spiritual promise of eternal salvation and blessing given to Abraham belongs to all those who belong to Christ. They are all heirs according to that promise, which is fulfilled in Christ. This is not a reference to the promises given to Abraham regarding the land (Gen. 12:1; 13:14-15; 17:8), but refers to the spiritual blessings that come to all who, being justified by faith just as Abraham was (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:3-11), will inherit the spiritual promises given to Abraham. Not all the physical seed of Abraham will receive the promises of salvation (Rom. 9:6-11), but many who are not physical seed of Abraham will receive them by coming to God by faith as he did, thereby becoming his spiritual offspring.
Those who are children of God are "heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:17). Christ's inheritance belongs to "all those who are sanctified" (Acts 20:32), His fellow "heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7). They are "sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Eph. 1:13), the promise of inheriting God Himself. "The Lord is the portion of my inheritance and my cup, exulted David (Ps. 16:5).
In his vision on Patmos, John "heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, 'Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them, and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son"' (Rev. 21:3-4, 7).
John Stott lucidly summarizes his comments on this passage in the following words: "We cannot come to Christ to be justified until we have first been to Moses to be condemned. But once we have gone to Moses, and acknowledged our sin, guilt and condemnation, we must not stay there. We must let Moses send us to Christ" (The Message of Galatians [London: Inter-Varsity, 1968], p. 102).MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Galatians.

 

I thought you had followed the whole thread and was building upon the other posts...let me piece it together, and post some of the sections from Hebrews that answer your question.Notice I am not saying it...scripture is.:thumbsup:
Jesus is The True Israel. There is only one church throughout all time that will assemble on the last day. it is made up of all elect saints since Adam, since hebrews Israel was a theocracy, and since Christian Israel[church] is still being assembled as the gospel goes world wide.
To seperate Hebrew Israel from all other saints now is contrary to scripture.
__________________
You are correct in quoting Jesus in mt 18. Indeed he is building His church.
Everything that happened in the OT was the shadow of the reality.


23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Jesus and the Apostles were foundational to the final building of the church. which extends to include all believers who were already in the Kingdom...having entered in times past-

Quote:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.



all come into the Church...the Christian Israel...even those from the shadow ...hebrew Israel....

3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Ot saints and Nt saints...form the church.

Ot saints looked forward through faith to the time Jesus builds His church...
we all form the one true Israel because Jesus is the True Israel ,the Covenant Son....
Ot Israel is the type-

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Jesus the reality;

Quote:
And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

it all happens according to plan;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
There were many saints before the nation of Israel.

The Ot theocracy was God's people at that time. Everything about the worship was in type and shadow.Hebrews 8-10.

lets take a look:

These carnal ordinances stood until the time of reformation.....notice...we as gentiles do not fawn over Ot Israel...they looked forward to our time. The root promises are fulfilled in Jesus.....not Moses.....saved gentiles will not be serving jewish people in an earthly millenium....there is one new man in Christ.

Israel is five things in scripture.

Jacob was called Israel.

The 12 tribes were called Israel

The ten northern tribes were called Israel

The Servant of the Lord is called Israel

The church is called the Israel of God.
Anyone belonging to the church is part of the Israel of God.
The promised seed is Jesus. Anyone who is in the church is In Jesus.

 

Originally Posted by Bronconagurski
No, the OT believers are not in the church that Jesus built. When Jesus returns, Israel will get the land that God has promised.

exactly! that is why isreal and the Church are NOT same in the plans of God!

Joshua says it happened already:thumbsup:

:wavey::wavey: Looks clear here in Joshua.....land promises were conditional.

 

Thomas....

We do not have to replace it.....we just have to understand how the writers used it correctly..... I showed how Israel has meant 5 seperate things in scripture...correct????

When the passage speaks of Ot Israel we let speak about OT Israel....


When ex4 says-

How can the nation be spoken of as God's Son, God's servant, God's firstborn...as if it was an individual????

God called His Covenant Son ...out of Egypt...Pharoah resisted...what happened????....the first Exodus

In the NT...

This is the second ,final and true Exodus....The first born Covenant Son, does not fail as the nation did in the first exodus....Jesus is the true manna, the living water, the true tabernacle,, all the shadows find fulfillment in Him.

Thomas...what else would Hosea, or Mt 2:15 be talking about ???

Thomas .....Jesus and the One true church is the goal of all redemptive History.....we do not go back to the shadow...we go ahead to the eternal state....:thumbsup:

 

Can you answer yes or know?

 

There is Old Covenant Israel and New Covenant Israel.

Old Covenant Israel was a geopolitical entity in which the covenant was by physical birth. Those under the covenant comprised both regenerate and unregenerate individuals.

New Covenant Israel is a dispersive entity in which the covenant is by spiritual rebirth. Those under the covenant comprise only regenerate individuals. "They shall all know me, from the least to the greatest." It began with Jews on the day of Pentecost--encompassing the "remnant"--with "the house of Judah and the house of Israel." Geopolitical Israel was "blinded in part." "The election hath obtained it, but the rest were blinded." What the election obtained was "the election of grace, and if by grace then it is no more of works..." The "natural" branches are broken off and the faithful Gentiles are "grafted in" to Israel (Rom 11:17 c.f. Jer 11:16). Therefore, New Covenant Israel is manifested first by the Jewish remnant, then by Gentiles added to it.

 

I do. Now do you agree that this was the understanding of Paul concerning that?
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Rom 4:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises Heb 11:13

Today Abraham is dead and has yet to receive the promises. Some like to take these verses from the gospels and say Abraham is alive today, Luke 20:37:38 even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
That verse 37 begins with the words: Now that the dead are raised,

This is about a resurrection from the dead and it is about a resurrection from the dead different from the resurrection of Lazarus in that at this resurrection there will be no more death, see verse 36: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. This taks place at the coming of the Lord.

But the promise that was made to Abraham was made to him and his seed, Christ, singular. The Son of Man who was conceived by the Spirit God in a virgin woman.

He also died. And he died just as dead as his father Abraham.

How was this dead Son of Man able to inherit the promises?

Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Gal. 3:18,19 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham (and his seed, see v16) by promise. Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Jesus inherited the promises by inheritance through resurrection from the dead. Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten (born) thee. A name above all names see Rom. 1:4 Heb 1:1-8

Jesus inherited by resurrection and so shall we inherit by resurrection and or instant change if alive at his coming.

Van, does not understand this. The being made perfect of Heb 11:40 is relative to a better resurrection see verse 35 which is different from say the resurrection of Lazarus. This better resurrection is to life within oneself (like Jesus see John 5:26) in a spiritual incorruptible body from which there is neither death nor incorruption. The perfect of Heb 12:23 is speaking of the same perfect of 11:40 see commentary of JFB and Robertson. Hope Van reads this thread.

As I said before Christianity today negates the necessity of the resurrection of Jesus the Christ, the Son of God and also negates the necessity of our resurrection/change into his image at his appearing. They are so hung up on Jesus the Christ being God that they cannot understand that God had a human Son with a woman to die for the sin of the world by having the sin of the world put on him the sinless one, the Just One.

And if ye Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Heirs to inherit by resurrection/change at the appearing and kingdom of Jesus.

 

No, but Gal 3:16 says the promises were to Abraham and his one seed Christ and v18,19 make it clear that the promise even to father Abraham comes through his son the Christ who also is the Son of God. It comes by resurrection/regeneration.

The faith of Abraham wasn't what he believed, it was what he understood about what God was doing.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

What did Jesus mean here. Abraham saw the death of Jesus as a sacrifice. He also saw the resurrection of Jesus.

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son], Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where [is] the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

That is the faith that Abraham died in. That the Son of God was going to be the sacrifice, And that God his Father would raise him from the dead.

Gal. 3:23-25 speaks of before the faith came and then after the faith did come.

That was the faith Abraham saw and died in and is the faith by which Abraham will be able to receive the promises, because God the Father gave them to his Abraham's and His God's Son.

Before the faith came, under the schoolmaster, the law, concluded under sin subject to eternal death. After the faith came, death of Jesus who paid the penalty for sin, God gave him the promise see Titus 1:2 then now we are are under the grace of eternal life that is in the resurrected Son of God.

 

Why would you want a yes or know answer to something that is progressively revealed. the question is not specific enough for a yes or no answer. It starts with a wrong premise.
The church is the goal of redemption.God has always had the church in mind.Everything in the 66 books speaks of God redeeming His people....
the church.....

There has never been two seperate plans.That theology is completely anti -scriptural. The church is not the heavenly people and physical Israel the earthly people. It does not hold up...

All these saints are mentioned together as saints.

 

Stop with this yes and no stuff,,,,,

Explain your understanding of this passage....This will save alot of time...

Who is Israel ....God's servant in this passage.....if it is physical jews..how are the formed in the womb? how do physical jews do the work.of God...and gather themselves when God says he will gather them.

I believe this passage makes no sense unless you understand it as I posted earlier. You explain to me what you got on it:thumbs::thumbs: