If the Church is spiritual Israel...

[thomas15]

Who is Israel ....God's servant in this passage.....if it is physical jews..how are the formed in the womb? how do physical jews do the work.of God...and gather themselves when God says he will gather them.

I believe this passage makes no sense unless you understand it as I posted earlier. You explain to me what you got on it

That Israel, defined everywhere in the Bible as the decendents of Abraham thru Isaac thru Jacob are the servant of Jehovah is not a matter for dispute in the passages above. Many passages talk about this. That Jehovah has placed a veil over their eyes is also not in dispute. That Jehovah has reserved a remnant is clearly Biblical. The idea that Jehovah, who when outlining the New Covenant in Jeremiah ch 31:35-37 states that the decendents of Jacob, inspite of their disobedience will remain a nation forever should not cause you so much gas but it seems to...

Jeremiah 31

35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):

36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

37 Thus says the Lord:

“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.



But you want to say that Israel is the Church but you cannot because it makes no sense.

 

[AresMan]

The idea that Jehovah, who when outlining the New Covenant in Jeremiah ch 31:35-37 states that the decendents of Jacob, inspite of their disobedience will remain a nation forever should not cause you so much gas but it seems to...

Jeremiah 31

35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):

36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

37 Thus says the Lord:

“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.



But you want to say that Israel is the Church but you cannot because it makes no sense.

I believe that the promise includes that God will preserve the physical descendants of Abraham from being wiped out.

Now, it seems that v. 36 is talking about God preserving a geopolitical entity. He said that "the seed of Israel shall also [not] cease From being a nation before Me forever." However, what God means is clarified in v.37 when He says "I will also [not] cast off all the seed of Israel." What is of concern here is that God will not let the people die, not a functioning geopolitical nation. When Israel was led into captivity, they were still the "nation" of Israel even though there was no king ruling from Jerusalem.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

What "nation" was this? Was a specific Gentile nation given "the kingdom"? Or was the "nation" the Christian diaspora?

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

What "nation" is this? The specific people to whom Peter wrote were "strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia." If "nation" must be a functioning geopolitical entity, then "strangers scattered throughout" could not be considered a "nation." However, the people of God can be "a nation before Me forever" because they are a "nation" in God's eyes.

This "holy nation"--the subjects of the New Covenant--are the remnant of Jews promised by God that He would preserve (true Israel) AND faithful Gentiles "grafted in" to Israel (Rom 11:17 c.f. Jer 11:16). This is the new "holy nation." This is Israel under the New Covenant--Jew and Gentile equal.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe that the promise includes that God will preserve the physical descendants of Abraham from being wiped out.

Now, it seems that v. 36 is talking about God preserving a geopolitical entity. He said that "the seed of Israel shall also [not] cease From being a nation before Me forever." However, what God means is clarified in v.37 when He says "I will also [not] cast off all the seed of Israel." What is of concern here is that God will not let the people die, not a functioning geopolitical nation. When Israel was led into captivity, they were still the "nation" of Israel even though there was no king ruling from Jerusalem.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

What "nation" was this? Was a specific Gentile nation given "the kingdom"? Or was the "nation" the Christian diaspora?

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

What "nation" is this? The specific people to whom Peter wrote were "strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia." If "nation" must be a functioning geopolitical entity, then "strangers scattered throughout" could not be considered a "nation." However, the people of God can be "a nation before Me forever" because they are a "nation" in God's eyes.

This "holy nation"--the subjects of the New Covenant--are the remnant of Jews promised by God that He would preserve (true Israel) AND faithful Gentiles "grafted in" to Israel (Rom 11:17 c.f. Jer 11:16). This is the new "holy nation." This is Israel under the New Covenant--Jew and Gentile equal.

Makes a lot of sense. I would go further and call this "holy nation" the Church!

 

[Iconoclast]

That Israel, defined everywhere in the Bible as the decendents of Abraham thru Isaac thru Jacob are the servant of Jehovah is not a matter for dispute in the passages above. [/B


But you want to say that Israel is the Church but you cannot because it makes no sense.

Your theology cannot understand Isa 49;1-8...I asked you to explain Isa 49,

Not jer 31:laugh:....I say what the bible says....if you think isa 49 says something else ...explain how it can...,if you can.....the nation failed as the servant...as Adam failed as the federal head of mankind.

Jesus answers to both problems...He is the answer. My theology gets that:thumbs:
Now ....show me how you believe Isa 49 speaks of the nation rather than Jesus...

I do not mind if you cannot answer.....but do not divert away like an ostrich and hide from the passage.If your theology cannot speak to the passage it is time for a change.

 

[thomas15]

That was the faith Abraham saw and died in and is the faith by which Abraham will be able to receive the promises, because God the Father gave them to his Abraham's and His God's Son.

Before the faith came, under the schoolmaster, the law, concluded under sin subject to eternal death. After the faith came, death of Jesus who paid the penalty for sin, God gave him the promise see Titus 1:2 then now we are are under the grace of eternal life that is in the resurrected Son of God.

Question percho, do you believe that we will be physically resurrected from the grave?

 

[Iconoclast]

Makes a lot of sense. I would go further and call this "holy nation" the Church!

You might as well OLD REGULAR....because God does:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[percho]

Show me one place in the Bible where there is even a hint that Abraham understood that God almighty would become a man and sacrifice himself on the cross then come back from the grave. Your understanding of what John 8:56 actually teaches needs work, sorry to offend.

And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son], Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Abraham offered the seed of promise, Isaac (a picture of Christ) before this seed was married or had children, thinking being God had made a promise through him then he must going to raise him from the dead. I believe this is what Jesus meant when he said Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad.

I am checking commentaries to see if anyone agrees. Here is Barnes:
Abraham was permitted to have a view of the death of the Messiah as a sacrifice for sin, represented by the command to offer Isaac, Genesis 22:1-13. Comp. Hebrews 11:19. The death of the Messiah as a sacrifice for the sins of men was that which characterized his work-- which distinguished his times and his advent, and this was represented to Abraham clearly by the command to offer his son. From this arose the proverb among the Jews (Genesis 22:14), "In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen," or it shall be provided for; a proverb evidently referring to the offering of the Messiah on the mount for the sins of men. By this event Abraham was impressively told that a parent would not be required to offer in sacrifice his sons for the sins of his soul--a thing which has often been done by heathen; but that God would provide a victim, and in due time an offering would be made for the world.

John Gill on John 8:56
and he saw [it] and was glad;
he saw it with an eye of faith, he saw it in the promise, that in his seed all the nations of the earth should be blessed; and when it was promised him he should have a son, which was the beginning of the fulfilment of the other, he laughed, and therefore his son was called Isaac, to which some reference is here made; he saw him in the birth of his son Isaac and rejoiced, and therefore called his name Isaac, that is, "laughter": he saw also Christ and his day, his sufferings, death, and resurrection from the dead, in a figure; in the binding of Isaac, in the sacrifice of the ram, and in the receiving of Isaac, as from the dead; and he not only saw the Messiah in his type Melchizedek, and who some think was the Son of God himself, but he saw the second person, the promised Messiah, in an human form, ( Genesis 18:2 ) ; and all this was matter of joy and gladness to him. This brings to mind what the Jews say at the rejoicing at the law, when the book of the law is brought out F26

 

[percho]

Question percho, do you believe that we will be physically resurrected from the grave?

from what I posted in post 22.

I have stated in another thread of how man has negated the importance of the resurrection to life of Jesus the Christ and therefore in reality he also doesn't believe his own resurrection is of any importance, but for a body.


We had better be resurrected as he was or if alive at his coming quickened as he was/is. ! Cor. 15:50----


I do not see eternal life in the word of God outside of resurrection and or instant change to eternal life, at the appearing of Jesus.

We by the gift of the Spirit (life) of God: That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 by having had: by the Holy Spirit: end of 3:5 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:6

Through Jesus, means Jesus received first then was shed on us. See Acts 2:33 which says the exact same thing as Titus 3:5,6

 

[percho]

I believe that the promise includes that God will preserve the physical descendants of Abraham from being wiped out.

Now, it seems that v. 36 is talking about God preserving a geopolitical entity. He said that "the seed of Israel shall also [not] cease From being a nation before Me forever." However, what God means is clarified in v.37 when He says "I will also [not] cast off all the seed of Israel." What is of concern here is that God will not let the people die, not a functioning geopolitical nation. When Israel was led into captivity, they were still the "nation" of Israel even though there was no king ruling from Jerusalem.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

What "nation" was this? Was a specific Gentile nation given "the kingdom"? Or was the "nation" the Christian diaspora?

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

What "nation" is this? The specific people to whom Peter wrote were "strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia." If "nation" must be a functioning geopolitical entity, then "strangers scattered throughout" could not be considered a "nation." However, the people of God can be "a nation before Me forever" because they are a "nation" in God's eyes.

This "holy nation"--the subjects of the New Covenant--are the remnant of Jews promised by God that He would preserve (true Israel) AND faithful Gentiles "grafted in" to Israel (Rom 11:17 c.f. Jer 11:16). This is the new "holy nation." This is Israel under the New Covenant--Jew and Gentile equal.

How about these are called out of the world into the church which is Jerusalem above, Mt Zion, the mother of us all, which gives birth to the nation at the appearing of Jesus and then they will rule with him as kings and priests?

 

[Iconoclast]

How about these are called out of the world into the church which is Jerusalem above, Mt Zion, the mother of us all, which gives birth to the nation at the appearing of Jesus and then they will rule with him as kings and priests?

:thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

[Bronconagurski]

:thumbs::applause::thumbs:

How about this scripture that says God is not done with the physical Israel?

Ezekiel 36:24-38 (HCSB)
24 “For I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances.
28 Then you will live in the land that I gave your fathers; you will be My people, and I will be your God.
29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will summon the grain and make it plentiful, and will not bring famine on you.
30 I will also make the fruit of the trees and the produce of the field plentiful, so that you will no longer experience reproach among the nations on account of famine.
31 “Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and detestable practices.
32 It is not for your sake that I will act”—the declaration of the Lord GOD—“let this be known to you. Be ashamed and humiliated because of your ways, house of Israel!
33 “This is what the Lord GOD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the ruins will be rebuilt.
34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of everyone who passes by.
35 Then they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden. The cities that were once ruined, desolate, and destroyed are ⌊now⌋ fortified and inhabited.’
36 Then the nations that remain around you will know that I, Yahweh, have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I, Yahweh, have spoken and I will do ⌊it⌋.
37 “This is what the Lord GOD says: I will respond to the house of Israel and do this for them: I will multiply them in number like a flock.
38 So the ruined cities will be filled with a flock of people, just as the flock of sheep for sacrifice is filled in Jerusalem during its appointed festivals. Then they will know that I am Yahweh.”

Ezekiel 37:1-28 (HCSB)
1 The hand of the LORD was on me, and He brought me out by His Spirit and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones.
2 He led me all around them. There were a great many of them on the surface of the valley, and they were very dry.
3 Then He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” I replied, “Lord GOD, ⌊only⌋ You know.”
4 He said to me, “Prophesy concerning these bones and say to them: Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5 This is what the Lord GOD says to these bones: I will cause breath to enter you, and you will live.
6 I will put tendons on you, make flesh grow on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you so that you come to life. Then you will know that I am Yahweh.”
7 So I prophesied as I had been commanded. While I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8 As I looked, tendons appeared on them, flesh grew, and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
9 He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man. Say to it: This is what the Lord GOD says: Breath, come from the four winds and breathe into these slain so that they may live!”
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me; the breath entered them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, a vast army.
11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Look how they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished; we are cut off.’
12 Therefore, prophesy and say to them: This is what the Lord GOD says: I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them, My people, and lead you into the land of Israel.
13 You will know that I am Yahweh, My people, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.
14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I am Yahweh. I have spoken, and I will do ⌊it⌋.” ⌊This is⌋ the declaration of the LORD.
15 The word of the LORD came to me:
16 “Son of man, take a single stick and write on it: Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him. Then take another stick and write on it: Belonging to Joseph—the stick of Ephraim—and all the house of Israel associated with him.
17 Then join them together into a single stick so that they become one in your hand.
18 When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you explain to us what you mean by these things?’—
19 tell them: This is what the Lord GOD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel associated with him, and put them together with the stick of Judah. I will make them into a single stick so that they become one in My hand.
20 “When the sticks you have written on are in your hand and in full view of the people,
21 tell them: This is what the Lord GOD says: I am going to take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land.
22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one king will rule over all of them. They will no longer be two nations and will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.
23 They will not defile themselves anymore with their idols, their detestable things, and all their transgressions. I will save them from all their apostasies by which they sinned, and I will cleanse them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God.
24 My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances, and keep My statutes and obey them.
25 “They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live in it forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.
26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will establish and multiply them and will set My sanctuary among them forever.
27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.
28 When My sanctuary is among them forever, the nations will know that I, Yahweh, sanctify Israel.”

You can not deny this refers to the physical nation of Israel. Not the church, but Israel. And this has never happened in the history of Israel. Read the promises. Let the Holy Spirit guide you, not your mistaken views of how smart you are. Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[percho]

How about this scripture that says God is not done with the physical Israel?

Ezekiel 36:24-38 (HCSB)
24 “For I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances.
28 Then you will live in the land that I gave your fathers; you will be My people, and I will be your God.
29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will summon the grain and make it plentiful, and will not bring famine on you.
30 I will also make the fruit of the trees and the produce of the field plentiful, so that you will no longer experience reproach among the nations on account of famine.
31 “Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and detestable practices.
32 It is not for your sake that I will act”—the declaration of the Lord GOD—“let this be known to you. Be ashamed and humiliated because of your ways, house of Israel!
33 “This is what the Lord GOD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the ruins will be rebuilt.
34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of everyone who passes by.
35 Then they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden. The cities that were once ruined, desolate, and destroyed are ⌊now⌋ fortified and inhabited.’
36 Then the nations that remain around you will know that I, Yahweh, have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I, Yahweh, have spoken and I will do ⌊it⌋.
37 “This is what the Lord GOD says: I will respond to the house of Israel and do this for them: I will multiply them in number like a flock.
38 So the ruined cities will be filled with a flock of people, just as the flock of sheep for sacrifice is filled in Jerusalem during its appointed festivals. Then they will know that I am Yahweh.”

Ezekiel 37:1-28 (HCSB)
1 The hand of the LORD was on me, and He brought me out by His Spirit and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones.
2 He led me all around them. There were a great many of them on the surface of the valley, and they were very dry.
3 Then He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” I replied, “Lord GOD, ⌊only⌋ You know.”
4 He said to me, “Prophesy concerning these bones and say to them: Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5 This is what the Lord GOD says to these bones: I will cause breath to enter you, and you will live.
6 I will put tendons on you, make flesh grow on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you so that you come to life. Then you will know that I am Yahweh.”
7 So I prophesied as I had been commanded. While I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8 As I looked, tendons appeared on them, flesh grew, and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
9 He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man. Say to it: This is what the Lord GOD says: Breath, come from the four winds and breathe into these slain so that they may live!”
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me; the breath entered them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, a vast army.
11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Look how they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished; we are cut off.’
12 Therefore, prophesy and say to them: This is what the Lord GOD says: I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them, My people, and lead you into the land of Israel.
13 You will know that I am Yahweh, My people, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.
14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I am Yahweh. I have spoken, and I will do ⌊it⌋.” ⌊This is⌋ the declaration of the LORD.
15 The word of the LORD came to me:
16 “Son of man, take a single stick and write on it: Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him. Then take another stick and write on it: Belonging to Joseph—the stick of Ephraim—and all the house of Israel associated with him.
17 Then join them together into a single stick so that they become one in your hand.
18 When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you explain to us what you mean by these things?’—
19 tell them: This is what the Lord GOD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel associated with him, and put them together with the stick of Judah. I will make them into a single stick so that they become one in My hand.
20 “When the sticks you have written on are in your hand and in full view of the people,
21 tell them: This is what the Lord GOD says: I am going to take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land.
22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one king will rule over all of them. They will no longer be two nations and will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.
23 They will not defile themselves anymore with their idols, their detestable things, and all their transgressions. I will save them from all their apostasies by which they sinned, and I will cleanse them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God.
24 My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances, and keep My statutes and obey them.
25 “They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live in it forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.
26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will establish and multiply them and will set My sanctuary among them forever.
27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.
28 When My sanctuary is among them forever, the nations will know that I, Yahweh, sanctify Israel.”

You can not deny this refers to the physical nation of Israel. Not the church, but Israel. And this has never happened in the history of Israel. Read the promises. Let the Holy Spirit guide you, not your mistaken views of how smart you are. Let God be true and every man a liar.

I believe Israel in part is presently blinded.

I believe all Israel shall be saved.

You may ask. You mean those folks who rejected Jesus as their king?

That was done a long time ago as God told Samuel, "they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them".

Long before the passages you showed were written.

I believe it is the firstfruits that are being called now. You put first in front of a word it implies there to be others of a same kind later.

And she brought forth her firstborn son and they names him Jesus. Did she have at the least one other son?

 

[Iconoclast]

How about this scripture that says God is not done with the physical Israel?

Ezekiel 36:

You can not deny this refers to the physical nation of Israel. Not the church, but Israel. And this has never happened in the history of Israel. Read the promises. Let the Holy Spirit guide you, not your mistaken views of how smart you are. Let God be true and every man a liar.

Let the Holy Spirit guide you, not your mistaken views of how smart you are. Let God be true and every man a liar

You can remain in your ignorance. You have not responded to what I posted , but I see now. You are specially guided by the Holy Spirit...the rest of us are not......sure. I have heard this before... ezk 36 is fulfilled in the New Covenant at regeneration for the rest of the church. You can post to John Hagee...or jack van impe for any further instructions....or just listen to the Holy Spirit....you will have it all infallibly:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Bronconagurski]

You can remain in your ignorance. You have not responded to what I posted , but I see now. You are specially guided by the Holy Spirit...the rest of us are not......sure. I have heard this before... ezk 36 is fulfilled in the New Covenant at regeneration for the rest of the church. You can post to John Hagee...or jack van impe for any further instructions....or just listen to the Holy Spirit....you will have it all infallibly:thumbs::thumbs:

I don't listen to Jack Van Impe or John Hagee, but study and read my bible. If Ezekial 36 were fulfilled, then somewhere in the N.T. we would be told that. That is logical, don't you think? I mean, something that big. All of Israel saved, the Holy Spirt indwelling. Jesus as their king. The throne of David is NOT in heaven. BTW, you didn't have question in the post I responded to, only thumbs up to percho, so I don't know to what you refer. Nothing special about being filled by the Spirit if you are saved, but what do you want me to say? You boys can dish it out, calling us blasphemers and what not, but you can't take it. I understand now.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't listen to Jack Van Impe or John Hagee, but study and read my bible. If Ezekial 36 were fulfilled, then somewhere in the N.T. we would be told that. That is logical, don't you think? I mean, something that big. All of Israel saved, the Holy Spirt indwelling. Jesus as their king. The throne of David is NOT in heaven. BTW, you didn't have question in the post I responded to, only thumbs up to percho, so I don't know to what you refer. Nothing special about being filled by the Spirit if you are saved, but what do you want me to say? You boys can dish it out, calling us blasphemers and what not, but you can't take it. I understand now.

Think reformed bethren seem to be arguing against hyper Dispy, as I don't know any "normal" one that states that jews are saved today apart from coming to yeshua as their messiah!

Again, just that Dispy hold to a literal view of bible, and that God is not done dealing with nation isreal, just not now, but will be in end times!

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't listen to Jack Van Impe or John Hagee, but study and read my bible. If Ezekial 36 were fulfilled, then somewhere in the N.T. we would be told that. That is logical, don't you think? I mean, something that big. All of Israel saved, the Holy Spirt indwelling. Jesus as their king. The throne of David is NOT in heaven. BTW, you didn't have question in the post I responded to, only thumbs up to percho, so I don't know to what you refer. Nothing special about being filled by the Spirit if you are saved, but what do you want me to say? You boys can dish it out, calling us blasphemers and what not, but you can't take it. I understand now.

I have not called you a blasphemer have I. I answered you in post 29/ I asked about 4 sections of scripture. You did not respond to anything I posted, but instead made an unfounded accusation. Answer post 29 first...then we can proceed. If you just want to make a personal attack...i am not interested.If you want serious bible discussion , lets try that. You can correct"all my errors" scripturally if you can. I likewise will respond to what you post scripturally.

 

[Bronconagurski]

double post, didn't know how to delete

 

[Bronconagurski]

Icon, if you want people to answer, then use references

I have not called you a blasphemer have I. I answered you in post 29/ I asked about 4 sections of scripture. You did not respond to anything I posted, but instead made an unfounded accusation. Answer post 29 first...then we can proceed. If you just want to make a personal attack...i am not interested.If you want serious bible discussion , lets try that. You can correct"all my errors" scripturally if you can. I likewise will respond to what you post scripturally.

You gave verses, not books or chapters. Sheesh. And you are the one with the smart aleck reply about me thinking I'm special or whatever nonsense you posted.

 

[Iconoclast]

You gave verses, not books or chapters. [ Sheesh. And you are the one with the smart aleck reply about me thinking I'm special or whatever nonsense you posted.

You posted this:

Let the Holy Spirit guide you, not your mistaken views of how smart you are. Let God be true and every man a liar

Was this given for my edification?

You gave verses, not books or chapters.

okay..fair enough...I will repost it here with the scriptural address...respond to them please:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronconagurski View Post
Really? Then why did Jesus say, "upon this rock I will build my church"? If the church has been established since Adam, he would have said "upon this rock I have built my church".
Bski,
You are correct in quoting Jesus in mt 18. Indeed he is building His church.
Everything that happened in the OT was the shadow of the reality.

Hebrews9:23
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Jesus and the Apostles were foundational to the final building of the church. which extends to include all believers who were already in the Kingdom...having entered in times past-
Quote: Eph2:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


all come into the Church...the Christian Israel...even those from the shadow ...hebrew Israel....
Hebrews3:
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Ot saints and Nt saints...form the church.

Ot saints looked forward through faith to the time Jesus builds His church...
we all form the one true Israel because Jesus is the True Israel ,the Covenant Son....
Ot Israel is the type-
Exodus 4:
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Jesus the reality;
Quote:
Isa49;3-8
And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
it all happens according to plan;
Eph3:
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

here is one other section:

The Ot theocracy was God's people at that time. Everything about the worship was in type and shadow.Hebrews 8-10.

lets take a look:
Quote:
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Quote:
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things
Quote:
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away


Quote:
Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary
Quote:
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present
Quote:
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

These carnal ordinances stood until the time of reformation.....notice...we as gentiles do not fawn over Ot Israel...they looked forward to our time. The root promises are fulfilled in Jesus.....not Moses.....saved gentiles will not be serving jewish people in an earthly millenium....there is one new man in Christ.
Quote:
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Quote:
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Israel is five things in scripture.

Jacob was called Israel.

The 12 tribes were called Israel

The ten northern tribes were called Israel

The Servant of the Lord is called Israel

The church is called the Israel of God.
Anyone belonging to the church is part of the Israel of God.
The promised seed is Jesus. Anyone who is in the church is In Jesus.
__________________

 

[Bronconagurski]

Icon, I will go back to 29

That last post of yours didn't show up right when I tried to answer it. BTW, when I said let God be true and all men liars, I presume you knew I was included in that statement. Sheesh.

But, you are right, some of my comments have not been civil, so let's start over. I will go to 29 and try to answer your post by finding the references with a search feature in my bible program. Just from a preliminary look, I don't think we are going to convince each other, but I will answer nevertheless.