If the Church is spiritual Israel...

[Iconoclast]

That last post of yours didn't show up right when I tried to answer it. BTW, when I said let God be true and all men liars, I presume you knew I was included in that statement. Sheesh.

But, you are right, some of my comments have not been civil, so let's start over. I will go to 29 and try to answer your post by finding the references with a search feature in my bible program. Just from a preliminary look, I don't think we are going to convince each other, but I will answer nevertheless.

BSKI,
Sounds good ...We can start fresh. I resisted some of these ideas when I first heard them also. I argued against them as herseies.:wavey:
I studied through the book of hebrews for more than two years....I found that some of what I believed seemed to contradict what I had been taught was true.
I am still learning. I do not claim any special knowledge. I am a truck driver. But even a truck driver can be Spirit filled:thumbs:
God has His people everywhere.
You should only believe what God's word teaches,as should I. the purpose of interacting here should be to help each other.
Christians have and do believe different things at different points in their lives. At the end of the day when it comes to end times......I do not think ones endtime calendar is as important as what we are called to do in LK 1;

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Bski,
You are correct in quoting Jesus in mt 18. Indeed he is building His church.
Everything that happened in the OT was the shadow of the reality.

Sorry, but I don't agree. He said he would build his church, future tense. You can't spiritualzie future tense to mean past tense.


23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.[/B]

The above scripture you used from Heb. 9:23 . Nothing there to prove the church was being built in the O.T.

Jesus and the Apostles were foundational to the final building of the church. which extends to include all believers who were already in the Kingdom...having entered in times past-


all come into the Church...the Christian Israel...even those from the shadow ...hebrew Israel....

There are no scriptures that affirm your assertion without isogesis. Once again, I disagree.

3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Ot saints and Nt saints...form the church.

the above Scriptures are from Hebrews, chapter 3. They merely compare Moses and Jesus, and exalt Jesus as better than Moses. It has nothing to do with proving the O.t. saints are included in the church without isogesis.

Ot saints looked forward through faith to the time Jesus builds His church...
we all form the one true Israel because Jesus is the True Israel ,the Covenant Son....
Ot Israel is the type-

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Jesus the reality;

Nothing to do with building the church, sorry once again.


it all happens according to plan;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

So you are proving my point that the church was a mystery to man, but not to God. What is so hard to understand that Christ can be both wife to the Nation of Israel, as the scriptures attest, but the church is the bride of Christ? Wife and bride are two different things. Christ's eternal purpose was to die for the elect of the church, but it also was to rule on the throne of David in a physical kingdom with the nation Israel as his people.

 

[Bronconagurski]

BSKI,
Sounds good ...We can start fresh. I resisted some of these ideas when I first heard them also. I argued against them as herseies.:wavey:
I studied through the book of hebrews for more than two years....I found that some of what I believed seemed to contradict what I had been taught was true.
I am still learning. I do not claim any special knowledge. I am a truck driver. But even a truck driver can be Spirit filled:thumbs:
God has His people everywhere.
You should only believe what God's word teaches,as should I. the purpose of interacting here should be to help each other.
Christians have and do believe different things at different points in their lives. At the end of the day when it comes to end times......I do not think ones endtime calendar is as important as what we are called to do in LK 1;

Agreed. And nothing wrong with truck drivers. My wife's dad and my dad were truck drivers, and I spent almost 10 years driving myself. My dad only had an 8th grade education but he was one of the smartest men I have ever met. He was a shop steward for the Teamsters and knew the contract forward and backward, and he knew his bible as well.

 

[Iconoclast]

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The above scripture you used from Heb. 9:23 . Nothing there to prove the church was being built in the O.T.

Jesus and the Apostles were foundational to the final building of the church. which extends to include all believers who were already in the Kingdom...having entered in times past-


all come into the Church...the Christian Israel...even those from the shadow ...hebrew Israel....


next you say;

all come into the Church...the Christian Israel...even those from the shadow ...hebrew Israel....

There are no scriptures that affirm your assertion without isogesis. Once again, I disagree.

Hebrews 11 speaks about OT saints...then finishes with this;

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Bski.

The above scripture you used from Heb. 9:23 . Nothing there to prove the church was being built in the O.T.

BSKI....if there is a shadow....there is a reality
If you hold out your hand on a sunny day, and see the shadow of your hand on the ground.....the shadow is not the reality....but it exists because of the real hand....not vise versa...Ot Israel, the priests sacrifices, laws, are a shadow of the heavenly reality.Jesus as the head of the body...the church

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

 

[OldRegular]

Icon

The Apostle Paul's letter called Hebrews is a wonderful book and puts the Old Testament system in its proper perspective relative to the revelation and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I believe a serious study of Hebrews could clear up many problems for those trained in dispensational thought!

 

[Bronconagurski]

Icon

The Apostle Paul's letter called Hebrews is a wonderful book and puts the Old Testament system in its proper perspective relative to the revelation and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I believe a serious study of Hebrews could clear up many problems for those trained in dispensational thought!

I don't believe the Apostle Paul wrote the epistle of the Hebrews. I used to think that, but Hebrews 2:3 tells us that the writer was a second generation believer that received the message of Christ from those who heard Christ. Paul claimed his gospel was revealed directly by the Lord. See I Cor. 15:8 and Galatians 1:12.

The book of Hebrews, imo, tells us how much better Christ is than angels, Moses, etc, etc, etc. It also gives warnings against not enduring or persevering. Dr. Fowler called it the carrot and stick method. But it doesn't refute dispensationalism at all imo. However, I will do another study and see what comes of it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon

The Apostle Paul's letter called Hebrews is a wonderful book and puts the Old Testament system in its proper perspective relative to the revelation and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I believe a serious study of Hebrews could clear up many problems for those trained in dispensational thought!

Yes. The book of Hebrews speaks to the current reign and activity of our Lord.
As our Great High Priest we are told to consider Him.
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

I believe as showing His superiority as Bski mentioned...it also explains to persecuted saints what he is doing currently as He reigns.

In Revelation 20 we are told he reigns for a thousand years. It does not say the reign is on earth.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
These saints who were beheaded, lived and reigned with him for the full time period.

To try and have a future thousand year reign on earth...people appeal to Isa 11.....and yet Paul quotes that in Romans as happening now.

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Yeshua1]

Icon

The Apostle Paul's letter called Hebrews is a wonderful book and puts the Old Testament system in its proper perspective relative to the revelation and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I believe a serious study of Hebrews could clear up many problems for those trained in dispensational thought!

perhaps, but a careful study of Romans could help those in Covenant theology see the truth of Dispy views better!

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't believe the Apostle Paul wrote the epistle of the Hebrews. I used to think that, but Hebrews 2:3 tells us that the writer was a second generation believer that received the message of Christ from those who heard Christ. Paul claimed his gospel was revealed directly by the Lord. See I Cor. 15:8 and Galatians 1:12.

The book of Hebrews, imo, tells us how much better Christ is than angels, Moses, etc, etc, etc. It also gives warnings against not enduring or persevering. Dr. Fowler called it the carrot and stick method. But it doesn't refute dispensationalism at all imo. However, I will do another study and see what comes of it.

Again, those holding to Covenant views think we hold to 2 salvations, one to jews/other gentiles!

In THIS age, BOTh saved by the cross. period!

but also the truth that when jesus returns, and during end time leading up to that event, that god will once again work at reddeming out spiritual isreal, as ALL jews alive then will be reborn again....And a nation shall bespiritually reborn, as all isreal at that time saved, as per Zechariah and paul stated and Ezeckiel!

 

[OldRegular]

perhaps, but a careful study of Romans could help those in Covenant theology see the truth of Dispy views better!

And the parable of the Olive tree in Romans 11 refutes classic dispensational doctrine of the Church.

 

[Yeshua1]

And the parable of the Olive tree in Romans 11 refutes classic dispensational doctrine of the Church.

Do you build theology upon parables?

or upon the whole word of God?

 

[percho]

Icon

The Apostle Paul's letter called Hebrews is a wonderful book and puts the Old Testament system in its proper perspective relative to the revelation and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I believe a serious study of Hebrews could clear up many problems for those trained in dispensational thought!

You are not saying, the Old Testament system, was a dispensation, are you?

 

[OldRegular]

Do you build theology upon parables?

or upon the whole word of God?

I always thought the parables in Scripture were part of the Word of God. Am I mistaken?

I thought the literalist believed even parables taught a literal truth. Am I wrong again?

 

[OldRegular]

You are not saying, the Old Testament system, was a dispensation, are you?

Some writers, others than dispensationalists, sometimes speak of the Old Testament as a dispensation, though I don't believe in the same sense that dispensationalists speak of a dispensation.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I believe Israel in part is presently blinded.

I believe all Israel shall be saved.

Are not all who do not believe living in the darkness of spiritual blindness?
Please define "ALL Israel". Will all of the physical descendants of Abraham, who was not a Jew, be granted salvation based upon their genealogical lineage? What does "all" mean to you? All Jews who happen to be alive at Christ's return? What about the millions & millions of Jews have been slaughtered over the centuries just for being Jewish? Will God grant them all salvation?

"ALL Israel" can only be in harmony with Scripture if it applies to spiritual Israel through the seed of Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

Are not all who do not believe living in the darkness of spiritual blindness?
Please define "ALL Israel". Will all of the physical descendants of Abraham, who was not a Jew, be granted salvation based upon their genealogical lineage? What does "all" mean to you? All Jews who happen to be alive at Christ's return? What about the millions & millions of Jews have been slaughtered over the centuries just for being Jewish? Will God grant them all salvation?

"ALL Israel" can only be in harmony with Scripture if it applies to spiritual Israel through the seed of Christ.

Those who call themselves Jews or Israelites, but are not true believers in jesus Christ, occupy the same relationship with God as all other people in the world be they Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, and lost people in general. That relationship is changed only through faith in Jesus Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Those who call themselves Jews or Israelites, but are not true believers in jesus Christ, occupy the same relationship with God as all other people in the world be they Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, and lost people in general. That relationship is changed only through faith in Jesus Christ!

yes, in this present Age of the Church, but once it is removed, than God goes back to dealing with them as a people!

 

[OldRegular]

yes, in this present Age of the Church, but once it is removed, than God goes back to dealing with them as a people!

No! Not at all! God finished with Israel as a people when they crucified Jesus Christ.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

yes, in this present Age of the Church, but once it is removed, than God goes back to dealing with them as a people!

So, you are saying that He will suspend the New Covenant & reinstitute the Old Law for a few Jews. Dealing with them as a group, instead of as individuals, means that you believe in a collective salvation based upon genealogy instead of the blood of Christ. That is not Biblical.

The Church is not limited to an Age, it is an eternal Body that will never cease.

 

[OldRegular]

So, you are saying that He will suspend the New Covenant & reinstitute the Old Law for a few Jews. Dealing with them as a group, instead of as individuals, means that you believe in a collective salvation based upon genealogy instead of the blood of Christ. That is not Biblical.

The Church is not limited to an Age, it is an eternal Body that will never cease.

Sounds good to me, and Biblical!