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Featured Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by awaken, Aug 14, 2012.

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  1. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    You come here with an agenda which is of course your right but you also expect us to take you seriously right from the get go and then basically make it clear that if we dare disagree with you then we are being judgemental.

    What one person calls "manifestations of the Holy Spirit" others call speaking gibberish. If you want to turn us all into tongues speakers and so forth you will have to make the (impossible) Biblical case for it, not play the victim.
     
    #61 thomas15, Aug 29, 2012
  2. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    My only agenda is to reconcile what I was taught under Baptist (which I still am)...and what I am finding in scriptures.

    1 Corn. 12 explains the manifestation of the Spirit....a chapter that was never brought up my Baptist heritage.

    Judgemental is not to disagree...you can disagree and it is not judgemental!
     
    #62 awaken, Aug 29, 2012
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Nobody speaks in tongues today...nobody, The rhyming noise is not tongues...
    it is nonsense.There are no apostles on earth today, they were foundational.
    Sign gifts have ceased.Signs of the Apostles have ceased.
     
    #63 Iconoclast, Aug 29, 2012
  4. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    What scripture did you use to determine this?
     
    #64 awaken, Aug 29, 2012
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Here are some more from an article by robert brace:
    he phrase 'signs of an apostle' is taken from 2 Corinthians 12:12 and is a reference to the fact that miracles were a major sign identifying the ministry of the first century apostles. In short, God enabled the apostles to perform various miraculous signs. Let us consider 2 Corinthians 12:12, then look at examples of this in the Book of Acts:

    “Here is God's 'bottom line' on signs for our present age: He has already provided one through the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ!
    '...A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.' (Matthew 12:39-40). ”

    'The things that mark an apostle - signs, wonders and miracles - were done among you with great perseverance.' (2 Corinthians 12:12, NIV throughout).

    'Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles.' (Acts 2:43).

    'The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people.' (Acts 5:12).

    '...People brought their sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed.' (Acts 5:15-16).

    'So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.' (Acts 14:3).

    'The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.' (Acts 15:12).

    'God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.' (Acts 19:11-12).

    Neither can we leave out Hebrews 2, which confirms that the first century was a very special time in which the apostles - witnesses of the ministry of Jesus - were granted the ability to perform special signs:

    'How shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.' (Hebrews 2:3-4).
     
    #65 Iconoclast, Aug 29, 2012
  6. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    So you are saying only apostles can manifest the Holy Spirit? Are they the only ones that are baptized in th Holy Spirit?
     
    #66 awaken, Aug 29, 2012
  7. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Signs and miracles and spiritual gifts were not limited to the apostles:

    "Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people." (Acts 6:8)

    "When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed." (Acts 8:6-7)

    "During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)" (Acts 11:27-28)

    "Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." (Acts 21:8-9)

    Some people believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were given to the apostles in order to confirm their authority, yet all of these other people (above) had miraculous gifts as well. And Paul specifically pointed out that all of the gifts of the Spirit were present in the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:7).

    Not only did these people (who were not apostles) prophesy and do amazing signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit, but at Pentecost the apostle Peter said that according to God's Word all Christians have the opportunity to do similar things:

    "Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: ... "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."" (Acts 2:14-18)

    God specifically said that He will pour out His Spirit on all types of people, and notice that He did not put any time limit on this. God did not say "I will pour out my Spirit for 60 or 70 years until the last apostle has died." Instead, God said that He will pour out His Spirit on people regardless of gender, age, social position, or time period.
     
    #67 awaken, Aug 29, 2012
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    All sign gifts were done by the apostles or around them.

    Peter says.....THIS IS THAT...spoken of by Joel in verse 16...The last days started at the cross. Some believe it was speaking of the last days of the Jewish theocracy.

    MK16:

    14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

    15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

    20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
     
    #68 Iconoclast, Aug 29, 2012
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    #69 Iconoclast, Aug 29, 2012
  10. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    The Bible notes many gifts. The modern tongues movement focus on one or two "sign" gifts which are easy to fake. Go out and raise someone from the dead like Paul did or perform great wonders like Steven, then we can have this discussion you want to have.
     
    #70 thomas15, Aug 29, 2012
  11. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    #71 awaken, Aug 29, 2012
  12. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Looks like the verse reads that the ones that believe their teaching the signs will folllow them...that would be us!

    I see you added around them...They were done by other than the apostles.

    Not only was there no time limit placed on the gifts of the Spirit (except that when we are transformed atHis coming), but neither Jesus nor the apostles ever took back, canceled, or in any way softened any of the things that they said about spiritual gifts. Take a close look at what they said:
    "But eagerly desire the greater gifts." (1 Corinthians 12:31)

    "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." (1 Corinthians 14:1)

    "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy." (1 Corinthians 14:5)

    "Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church." (1 Corinthians 14:12)

    "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues." (1 Corinthians 14:39)

    "Do not quench the Spirit." (1 Thessalonians 5:19, New King James Version)

    "do not treat prophecies with contempt." (1 Thessalonians 5:20)
    Not a single one of these statements was ever taken back or canceled!
     
    #72 awaken, Aug 29, 2012
  13. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    So you have to see before you believe what the word says?
     
    #73 awaken, Aug 29, 2012
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No one denies that gifts were there when the apostles were there.Paul regulates them in 1 cor 12


    No ..it is not us. It was those who saw and heard the apostles....the Lord confirming their word...with signs following...We have that word now.

    Meanwhile you keep trying to force the false ideas of todays false teachers on us.

    What was wrong with the you tube videos...they ,like you ,said they were
    "moving in the Spirit". How can you tell them they are not???
     
    #74 Iconoclast, Aug 29, 2012
  15. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Exactly.

    One of my former pastors said one time that if the gifts were operating today, then raising the dead ought to be a normal occurrence.

    He said, I tell you what. If Oral Roberts raises one, I'll raise the next one.

    He also said if the healing gifts were operational today, then let's go clean out the hospitals.
     
    #75 Tom Butler, Aug 29, 2012
  16. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    A better question to ask is do you have to experience "sign gifts" in order to believe the Bible? What happens if you don't have a regular tongues speaking session, does your faith suffer? And did you know that as mentioned in Revelation ch 13 the devil will use signs and wonders to fool many into thinking he is worthy of praise?

    An excerpt...

    Rev 13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
     
    #76 thomas15, Aug 30, 2012
  17. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I was taught the same way you are teaching me now, but I need scriptures to back up what I was taught and I can not find them. I am presenting scriptures with what others are teaching me. To reconcile this I need to see in His word that the manifestation/power of God is not here today. Do you have scriptures to back up what you are teaching! This is what I need! You can either help me or judge me...
     
    #77 awaken, Aug 30, 2012
  18. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    THat was a point that I brought up too...but...


    If the New Testament tells us to clear out hospitals then that's what we should do.

    What I found in the Gospels, however, is that Jesus didn't always heal everyone around Him, nor did He go out in search of people to heal. He healed everyone who came to Him. He healed a lame man at the pool of Bethesda, but apparently He didn't heal any of the other disabled people there (John 5:2-9). He went in and out of the temple gate many times, yet He never healed a beggar there who was crippled from birth (Acts 3:2-8). There are a number of passages which say that Jesus healed all of the sick people in various places, but these were people who came to Him or who were brought to Him. These were not people whom Jesus sought out to heal.

    Since Jesus didn't automatically heal everyone around Him, and since He didn't seek out people to heal, and since there's no record of Him going around emptying out leper colonies, we have no Scriptural precedent for trying to empty out hospitals.

    If the Holy Spirit leads us to visit a hospital and go around healing people then that's what we should do. But otherwise it's not likely to be fruitful if most of the patients have not had their hearts prepared to respond in faith
     
    #78 awaken, Aug 30, 2012
  19. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Once more...I was raised and still am Baptist! I believed before seeing or experiencing anything! Including salvation!

    My search was to disprove what I am now believing..if that makes sense?
    I was in search to disprove everything that I am asking you now. But I was presented scriptures that Baptist did not and still do not touch on.

    Tongues seems to be a big issue with you...so lets leave that out for now. What about the other gifts?

    I believe we are going to need all the manifestations/power of God in the last day! Discernment being one of them along with word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles prophecy etc.
     
    #79 awaken, Aug 30, 2012
  20. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    Go ahead awaken and give us a recounting of the prophesy you speak of.


    Actually, I don't wonder why satan attackes the "sign gifters" and their advantures. But I do know why satan attackes the truthfulness of the Bible because the Bible tells us why he does these things. Show me where the Bible teaches why satan attackes the modern "sign gifters" and we will use that as a jumping point into further discussions into your agenda.

    A true statement that does not prove your point, it actually argues against it.
     
    #80 thomas15, Aug 30, 2012
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