It is impossible to convince a Mormon that he is wrong!

[Wittenberger]

First, you have to correctly interpret what you are reading and Lutherans do not do that in regard to this subject. They simply lack understanding of Biblical context and thus They distort, misrepresent and pervert the scriptures in order to make it fit their man made traditions that they read into the scriptures. I am not being harsh. I am simply telling the obvious truth.






Here is another text jerked and twisted out of its context and made to mean something it has nothing to do with. Do you think the Apostle John was addressing LITERAL infants when he addressed his READERS as "little children" in his epistles? You simply do are incapable of understanding metaphorical language. Jesus commonly addresses full grown men "as" little children and in the presence of literal little children applies them as a SIMILE to all his disciples.

If we all follow your line of thinking, we should all throw out our Bibles, and just ask you to send us your own spiritual thoughts for the day. YOU are the final authority on God's Word. We cannot trust our Bibles.

Your calvinistic approach to the Bible based on sixteenth century human logic and reason, which completely denies any need for historical evidence that anyone in the first 800 years of Christianity held your western-European, industrial revolution, individualist, non-familial conversion paradigm is false teaching!

No one believed this stuff until almost the end of the first millenium AD! No one! You have carefully constructed a new doctrine that re-interprets the simple, clear doctrine of our Lord, into a literary work so difficult to understand that only a theologian or scholar can understand it.

Matthew 11:25 says "little children"! The idea that you take it upon yourself to reinterpret the Word of God is outrageous!

Similar statements were made in Luther's day by theologians and Popes. Luther let them have it for confusing the common people. You are doing the same.

 

[The Biblicist]

Matthew 11:25 says "little children"! The idea that you take it upon yourself to reinterpret the Word of God is outrageous!

The problem here is your failure to study the immediate context of this verse and the overall context and usage of the terms "little children" by Christ and His apostles. This is a regular used metaphorical expression of endearment especially by spiritual leaders toward their followers and it is also a proper description of the spiritual relationship between believers and God.

I will help you in both cases to see the immediate and overall context. First, the overall contextual usage of this termonology as terms of endearment and actual spiritual relationship to God:

Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

CONTEXT: Those who fit all the other beattitudes - responsible believers

Mt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one

CONTEXT: The proper term to describe the spiritual relationship between true believers and God

Mr 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

CONTEXT: His apostles

Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

CONTEXT: The word "as" denotes he is using a simile or comparison. He is speaking to adults and telling them they must become "as" children or a child like submission and faith

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

CONTEXT: Addressing His Apostles in upper room discourse

Ga 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

CONTEXT: He is addressing those who had been led astray by false teachers. Literal infants can hardly fit this context.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

CONTEXT: He is addressing those able to READ his letter and who can and do sin. Literal infants can hardly fit this context.

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

CONTEXT: He is addressing those who are able to express mature spiritual love for one another. Literal infants can hardly fit this context.

1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

CONTEXT: In all the above passages the words "little children" is a metaphorical term of affection used to describe ALL His readers regardless of their literal age. This is so obvious that only the blindness of paedobaptism could not see it.



Now for the immediate context of your so-called proof text:

1. In Matthew 13 where he addresses the very same ones - His disciples - he says:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mt. 11:25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


2. However, let us look more closely at the verses that precede and follow Matthew 11:25 to see how Jesus actually applies this statement:

a. Who is he addressing? Those who had REJECTED Him:

Mt. 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

b. Who is he applying this too? All those whom He reveals himself to, who are burdened and laden with sin and who are ABLE to come to Him by faith:

Mt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The immediate context makes it clear he is addressing ADULTS and this is a rebuke to their unbelief whereas the immediate following context makes it clear he is applying this to ALL who come to him BY FAITH under the burden and yoke of sin as characterized in verses 28-30. Literal infants are not burdened and weary of their sins because they are not even cognant of sin or that they are even sinners. The application is exactly as in Matthew 13:10 and it is obvious to anyone not wearing paedobaptist blinders.

Similar statements were made in Luther's day by theologians and Popes. Luther let them have it for confusing the common people. You are doing the same.

You come to the scriptures wearing the BLINDERS of the traditions of YOUR FATHERS - who were neither inspired by God but were Roman Catholics who never intended to leave Romanism but only make reforms that were neither deep enough or transforming enough.

However, again, notice the language in the following verses which is directed toward ADULT APOSTLES:

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Joh 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.

 

[The Biblicist]

Now for the immediate context of your so-called proof text:

1. In Matthew 13 where he addresses the very same ones - His disciples - he says:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mt. 11:25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


2. However, let us look more closely at the verses that precede and follow Matthew 11:25 to see how Jesus actually applies this statement:

a. Who is he addressing? Those who had REJECTED Him:

Mt. 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

b. Who is he applying this too? All those whom He reveals himself to, who are burdened and laden with sin and who are ABLE to come to Him by faith:

Mt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The immediate context makes it clear he is addressing ADULTS and this is a rebuke to their unbelief whereas the immediate following context makes it clear he is applying this to ALL who come to him BY FAITH under the burden and yoke of sin as characterized in verses 28-30. Literal infants are not burdened and weary of their sins because they are not even cognant of sin or that they are even sinners. The application is exactly as in Matthew 13:10 and it is obvious to anyone not wearing paedobaptist blinders.




You come to the scriptures wearing the BLINDERS of the traditions of YOUR FATHERS - who were neither inspired by God but were Roman Catholics who never intended to leave Romanism but only make reforms that were neither deep enough or transforming enough.

However, again, notice the language in the following verses which is directed toward ADULT APOSTLES:

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Joh 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.

The Old Covenant was a covenant of SHADOWS or TYPES (Heb. 10:1-4; Col. 2:14-16). The circumcision of babies was a SHADOW or TYPE of new birth under the New Covenant. Such "new birth" typology fit the OLD MAN Nicodemus (Jn. 3:3-6). Experiential entrance under the new covenant is by spiritual cutting off of the flesh or new birth. All who are under the New Covenant do not need to be LATER "confirmed" or taught the gospel in order to become believers [as all paedobaptist infants must be] but at their ENTRANCE into the New Covenant God revealed Himself to them in connection with the preaching of the gospel (1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13-14) and they know him by faith from the start.


Jer. 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is contextually defined as the New Covenant in Hebrews 8-10

Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Sure, we can teach children of God many things but one thing we can never reveal to any human being is God that comes by direct revelation to their minds and hearts from God Himself at the point of regenerative faith:

Mt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

CONTEXT: Jesus is directly referring to Peter's personal confession of faith in Christ. This confession came as a direct result of revelation from God to the heart and mind of Peter.

Mt 11:25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

CONTEXT: This is a rebuke to those who REFUSED TO BELIEVE in Him. Saving faith is by direct revelation of God to the human soul that no human can reveal to the soul .

Gal. 1:15 [B] But when it pleased God, who [/B]separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:on

CONTEXT: This is a direct reference to the personal revelation of Jesus Christ to Him on the road to Damascus. No human mediator revealed Christ to his soul although he had heard the gospel with his ears from many of Christ's disciples.

Jn. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If we all follow your line of thinking, we should all throw out our Bibles, and just ask you to send us your own spiritual thoughts for the day. YOU are the final authority on God's Word. We cannot trust our Bibles.

Your calvinistic approach to the Bible based on sixteenth century human logic and reason, which completely denies any need for historical evidence that anyone in the first 800 years of Christianity held your western-European, industrial revolution, individualist, non-familial conversion paradigm is false teaching!

No one believed this stuff until almost the end of the first millenium AD! No one! You have carefully constructed a new doctrine that re-interprets the simple, clear doctrine of our Lord, into a literary work so difficult to understand that only a theologian or scholar can understand it.

Matthew 11:25 says "little children"! The idea that you take it upon yourself to reinterpret the Word of God is outrageous!

Similar statements were made in Luther's day by theologians and Popes. Luther let them have it for confusing the common people. You are doing the same.

Not to speak for Biblicist, but all of this is just false. And your attempt to attach this viewpoint to Calvinism is a deflection and untrue.

 

[Wittenberger]

The problem here is your failure to study the immediate context of this verse and the overall context and usage of the terms "little children" by Christ and His apostles. This is a regular used metaphorical expression of endearment especially by spiritual leaders toward their followers and it is also a proper description of the spiritual relationship between believers and God.

I will help you in both cases to see the immediate and overall context. First, the overall contextual usage of this termonology as terms of endearment and actual spiritual relationship to God:

Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

CONTEXT: Those who fit all the other beattitudes - responsible believers

Mt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one

CONTEXT: The proper term to describe the spiritual relationship between true believers and God

Mr 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

CONTEXT: His apostles

Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

CONTEXT: The word "as" denotes he is using a simile or comparison. He is speaking to adults and telling them they must become "as" children or a child like submission and faith

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

CONTEXT: Addressing His Apostles in upper room discourse

Ga 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

CONTEXT: He is addressing those who had been led astray by false teachers. Literal infants can hardly fit this context.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

CONTEXT: He is addressing those able to READ his letter and who can and do sin. Literal infants can hardly fit this context.

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

CONTEXT: He is addressing those who are able to express mature spiritual love for one another. Literal infants can hardly fit this context.

1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

CONTEXT: In all the above passages the words "little children" is a metaphorical term of affection used to describe ALL His readers regardless of their literal age. This is so obvious that only the blindness of paedobaptism could not see it.



Now for the immediate context of your so-called proof text:

1. In Matthew 13 where he addresses the very same ones - His disciples - he says:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mt. 11:25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


2. However, let us look more closely at the verses that precede and follow Matthew 11:25 to see how Jesus actually applies this statement:

a. Who is he addressing? Those who had REJECTED Him:

Mt. 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

b. Who is he applying this too? All those whom He reveals himself to, who are burdened and laden with sin and who are ABLE to come to Him by faith:

Mt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The immediate context makes it clear he is addressing ADULTS and this is a rebuke to their unbelief whereas the immediate following context makes it clear he is applying this to ALL who come to him BY FAITH under the burden and yoke of sin as characterized in verses 28-30. Literal infants are not burdened and weary of their sins because they are not even cognant of sin or that they are even sinners. The application is exactly as in Matthew 13:10 and it is obvious to anyone not wearing paedobaptist blinders.




You come to the scriptures wearing the BLINDERS of the traditions of YOUR FATHERS - who were neither inspired by God but were Roman Catholics who never intended to leave Romanism but only make reforms that were neither deep enough or transforming enough.

However, again, notice the language in the following verses which is directed toward ADULT APOSTLES:

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Joh 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.

This situation is a perfect example of the term "jumping the gun"!

I read a verse that seemed to fit into my theology and I jumped on it with out any further study of Scripture or reviewing what the Church Fathers or my church teaches on this verse.

I am wrong! I jumped the gun!

This verse is directed to Christ's disciples who he was addressing as "little children". I made a mistake. In my enthusiasm I jumped to a wrong conclusion. I apologize.

I appreciate Biblicist's gracious reply. He could have accused me of acting foolishly and would not have been out of order!

 

[The Biblicist]

This situation is a perfect example of the term "jumping the gun"!

I read a verse that seemed to fit into my theology and I jumped on it with out any further study of Scripture or reviewing what the Church Fathers or my church teaches on this verse.

I am wrong! I jumped the gun!

This verse is directed to Christ's disciples who he was addressing as "little children". I made a mistake. In my enthusiasm I jumped to a wrong conclusion. I apologize.

I appreciate Biblicist's gracious reply. He could have accused me of acting foolishly and would not have been out of order!

I appreciate this honest response that demonstrates you are attempting to be objective.

However, I have one question for you. What if your traditions and church supported what your first impression???

 

[The Biblicist]

I appreciate this honest response that demonstrates you are attempting to be objective.

However, I have one question for you. What if your traditions and church supported what your first impression???

I may have edited in that question to late for you to see. Again, my question is, what IF your church, the ECF's and traditions had supported your first position?

I presented you with none of my teachers, church or traditions but only with the Bible and its context! Would that have been totally sufficient for you IN SPITE of what anyone, any other source may have said to the contrary??

 

[Wittenberger]

I appreciate this honest response that demonstrates you are attempting to be objective.

However, I have one question for you. What if your traditions and church supported what your first impression???

What I would now recommend from this error on my part is this: if one is reading along in the Bible and a verse jumps out at them as a "new discovery", hold off on forming a conclusion until you have thoroughly researched the subject.

First I would recommend that one finish reading all of the four Gospels before jumping to a conclusion. If I had done this, I would have seen how often Christ refers to his disciples as little children.

After doing the above in regards to Scripture, I would also recommend reading what the Church Fathers said about this topic. I would then read what the Lutheran "fathers" said on this topic.

The bottom line, however is this: if the plain, simple interpretation of a passage of Scripture, in context with surrounding Scripture and in context with other verses on the same topic does not agree with the interpretation of the Church Fathers or the Lutheran "fathers", the Bible trumps all and must be held as the final authority.

I didn't check with the Church Fathers or with the Lutheran Church after you pointed out my error. I went to the rest of the Bible to prove that you were correct. The simple interpretation of the Bible on this subject demonstrates that you are right and that I was wrong. I jumped the gun.

I should have realized this when I "discovered" a verse that so convincingly proves my theology, but a verse that I have never heard a Lutheran pastor or theologian EVER use as a proof text to support infant baptism.

 

[The Biblicist]

What I would now recommend from this error on my part is this: if one is reading along in the Bible and a verse jumps out at them as a "new discovery", hold off on forming a conclusion until you have thoroughly researched the subject.

First I would recommend that one finish reading all of the four Gospels before jumping to a conclusion. If I had done this, I would have seen how often Christ refers to his disciples as little children.

After doing the above in regards to Scripture, I would also recommend reading what the Church Fathers said about this topic. I would then read what the Lutheran "fathers" said on this topic.

The bottom line, however is this: if the plain, simple interpretation of a passage of Scripture, in context with surrounding Scripture and in context with other verses on the same topic does not agree with the interpretation of the Church Fathers or the Lutheran "fathers", the Bible trumps all and must be held as the final authority.

I have no issue with consulting commentators, living or dead, when researching the immediate and overall context of scriptures in arriving at an interpretation as long as the Biblical context trumps all uninspired commentators.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have no issue with consulting commentators, living or dead, when researching the immediate and overall context of scriptures in arriving at an interpretation as long as the Biblical context trumps all uninspired commentators.

God has given to His church gifted teachers and expositors of the bible, but have to always remember that though giftes, not same as being Apostles/prophets!

 

[Wittenberger]

God has given to His church gifted teachers and expositors of the bible, but have to always remember that though giftes, not same as being Apostles/prophets!

Very true. No man, including the Church Fathers, is infallible. All opinions by man must be verified by Scripture itself.

 

[The Biblicist]

Very true. No man, including the Church Fathers, is infallible. All opinions by man must be verified by Scripture itself.

Here are some biblically based rules of Hermeneutics:

1. 1 Cor. 14:30 - God is not the author of Confusion. Since God is the Author of the Scriptures:

a. Therefore, any interpretation that must depend on pitting scripture against scripture is a false interpretation.

b. Therefore every correct interpretation of scripture must HARMONIZE with its immediate and overall context.


2. 1 Cor. 2:13 - Comparing Spiritual things to Spiritual. The Scriptures are inspired by God and the product of the Spirit of God.

a. Therefore, the best available resource for interpreting the inspired words of one writer in Scripture is the inspired Words of other writers speaking about the same subject in scripture.

b. Therefore, inspired writers are a better source for interpreting scripture than uninspired writers and teachers.


3. 1 Jn. 4:6; Isa. 8:16 - We are commanded to test what all men say by what God's Word says and if they do not harmonize we are to reject whatever does not harmonize with God's Word.

a. Therefore Scripture is the final authority in regard to all that it speaks about and all that it is designed to be used for.

b. Since Scripture is given by God for doctrine, instruction, correction, and reproof, so that a man of God can be complete in these matters, it is therefore the final authority in such matters.

More to come.

 

[Wittenberger]

Here are some biblically based rules of Hermeneutics:

1. 1 Cor. 14:30 - God is not the author of Confusion. Since God is the Author of the Scriptures:

a. Therefore, any interpretation that must depend on pitting scripture against scripture is a false interpretation.

b. Therefore every correct interpretation of scripture must HARMONIZE with its immediate and overall context.


2. 1 Cor. 2:13 - Comparing Spiritual things to Spiritual. The Scriptures are inspired by God and the product of the Spirit of God.

a. Therefore, the best available resource for interpreting the inspired words of one writer in Scripture is the inspired Words of other writers speaking about the same subject in scripture.

b. Therefore, inspired writers are a better source for interpreting scripture than uninspired writers and teachers.


3. 1 Jn. 4:6; Isa. 8:16 - We are commanded to test what all men say by what God's Word says and if they do not harmonize we are to reject whatever does not harmonize with God's Word.

a. Therefore Scripture is the final authority in regard to all that it speaks about and all that it is designed to be used for.

b. Since Scripture is given by God for doctrine, instruction, correction, and reproof, so that a man of God can be complete in these matters, it is therefore the final authority in such matters.

More to come.

I'm pretty sure I agree with your rules, but could you please clarify rule 1a?

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm pretty sure I agree with your rules, but could you please clarify rule 1a?

Scriptures harmonize with each other and are never in true oppositon to each other. James 2 does not contradict Romans 4. If the only response a person has to Romans 4 "without works" is to quote James 2 "by my works" so as to imply a contradiction then the person pitting James 2 against Romans 4 does not properly understand either Romans 4 or James 2 or else he would not stoop to pitting one text against another. Instead, he will be able to explain Romans 4 within its context to show it does not contradict Jame 2 and vice versa.

Those who respond to one scripture by merely pitting another scripture against it are loudly advertising they are truly ignorant of both scriptures.

 

[Wittenberger]

Scriptures harmonize with each other and are never in true oppositon to each other. James 2 does not contradict Romans 4. If the only response a person has to Romans 4 "without works" is to quote James 2 "by my works" so as to imply a contradiction then the person pitting James 2 against Romans 4 does not properly understand either Romans 4 or James 2 or else he would not stoop to pitting one text against another. Instead, he will be able to explain Romans 4 within its context to show it does not contradict Jame 2 and vice versa.

Those who respond to one scripture by merely pitting another scripture against it are loudly advertising they are truly ignorant of both scriptures.

Here is a link to conservative Lutheran principles of scriptural interpretation. This is why I believe either conservative Lutherans or conservative Baptists have the true interpretation.

http://www.lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=415

 

[Wittenberger]

Below is the next passage of Scripture in our study of the New Testament.



Matthew 13
New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Sower

13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

The meaning of the Parable of the Sower

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”


This is one of the most famous of Jesus’ parables. I have heard some theologians state that this parable applies only to the Jews under the Old Covenant. It has no relevance to Christian doctrine.

Others use this parable as proof text that Christians can lose their salvation. I will let you the reader form you own opinion.

 

[Wittenberger]

Next passage of Scripture:


In Matthew chapters 18 and 19 our Lord makes several references to children and specifically, little children. I’m pretty sure that here He is speaking literally of actual toddlers and infants, not figuratively of child-like adults. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

These verses are not a discussion of infant baptism, but it is interesting to listen to Christ talk about the spiritual status of little children.

Matthew 18
English Standard Version (ESV)

2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

14 So it is not the will of my[a] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Matthew 19

14 but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”


I find this last verse very interesting because it does not say that the kingdom of heaven belongs to those who are “like” children but to little children; “of such” refers back to “little children” in the first part of the sentence.

This is not a proof text for infant baptism, but the simple interpretation of this verse makes it clear that little children are partakers of the Kingdom of heaven.

 

[Wittenberger]

Next passage of Scripture:


Matthew 19:16-22
English Standard Version (ESV)

The Rich Young Man

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

25When the discipes heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"

Some use this passage of Scripture as a litmus test for salvation: you must be willing to give up everything and everyone for Christ if you are REALLY a true Christian. I don't think that was Christ's intention here. In verse 21 Christ says, "if you would be perfect...". I think he gave this parable to show the Jews that no one could keep the law. To break one part of the Law was to break all of the Law. I think it is also a lesson to people in our era of the New Covenant that we can do all kinds of good deeds, but we will always fall short of perfection in ourselves, we need Christ's perfection for salvation.

 

[Wittenberger]

I am going to move this "Ongoing study/debate of the New Testament" to a new thread of the same title. Why? I think people are going to wonder why we aren't still talking about Mormons, since that is the title of this thread.

I look forward to hearing your comments there. God bless!

 

[The Biblicist]

Below is the next passage of Scripture in our study of the New Testament.



Matthew 13
New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Sower

13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

The meaning of the Parable of the Sower

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”


This is one of the most famous of Jesus’ parables. I have heard some theologians state that this parable applies only to the Jews under the Old Covenant. It has no relevance to Christian doctrine.

Others use this parable as proof text that Christians can lose their salvation. I will let you the reader form you own opinion.

Neither is true.

The previous context leading up to this parable is the increasing rejection by the professed people of God and the leadership of the professed people of God (Matt. 9-12). At the close of this parabolic section is further rejection by his own home city.

The implied question of the context is IF you are the Messiah of Israel, then why are the vast majority of the professed people of God rejecting you? Christ's answer is:

1. It is a heart problem - Not all who profess to receive the Word are true children of the kingdom.

2. It is a spiritual problem - the rejectors are tares - false professors planted in the professing kingdom of God by Satan.

3. It is a temporal problem - At the end of the world these tares, bad fish, unregenerated hearted people will be separated and removed from the professing kingdom of God.


The ground represents the "heart" and the description or characterization of the condition of the soil represents the condition of the human heart.

The first three soils represent hearts that have not bee prepared by the Holy Spirit - no regeneration or the LOST PROFESSOR or the "tare" in next parable or the "bad" fish in the parable of the net.

Only the last soil represents the regenerate heart. It has been thoroughly prepared for the seed (gospel). Moreover, the third soile represents all various extents of progressive sanctification among the saved, as saved people vary in their fruit production (some thirty, some sixty....).

1. Hard heart false professors - receive the word but it has no penetration

2. Shallow heart false professors- receive the word but there is no depth and no root - superficial professions and committments

3. Weedy heart false professors - hearts not prepared to receive

4. Good heart - The only soil that is called "good" and the only soil where the seed (gospel) penetrates, has no obstacles but is rooted, and the heart has been thoroughly plowed up and weeds removed. This is the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit. The variety of amount of production allows for the different level's of sanctification among born again Christians.