PUBLIC THANK YOU...and a challenge!

[12strings]

THANK YOU:
I want to publicly thank AWAKEN for starting a few threads that have nothing to do with support or opposition to Calvinism! I realize some here think he's crazy, but even if you are a strict cessationist, his posts should cause you to think.

CHALLENGE:
I would love to hear from some of the posters who ONLY seem to post when Calvinism is addressed...Could you perhaps spare time for other topics?

 

[Amy.G]

Certainly. Tongues of today are bogus. :wavey:

 

[convicted1]

Certainly. Tongues of today are bogus. :wavey:

And that's because John Calvin said so.....J/K Sissy....:laugh:



......eheheheheh....ducking for cover.

 

[awaken]

THANK YOU:
I want to publicly thank AWAKEN for starting a few threads that have nothing to do with support or opposition to Calvinism! I realize some here think he's crazy, but even if you are a strict cessationist, his posts should cause you to think.

CHALLENGE:
I would love to hear from some of the posters who ONLY seem to post when Calvinism is addressed...Could you perhaps spare time for other topics?

This was nice! ...and it is ok if some think I am crazy! When I was confronted with most of what I am presenting...It made me think too!

 

[OldRegular]

Certainly. Tongues of today are bogus. :wavey:

Some are sharp also!:thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

Certainly. Tongues of today are bogus. :wavey:

Amen.

And I'm in!

 

[AresMan]

Certainly. Tongues of today are bogus. :wavey:

I agree. What mascarades as "tongues" today have nothing to do with the real tongues of the Bible.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

If we do not have the full revelation of truth from God in His word yet, then tongues and prophecies of new revelation are present.
However, if we do have the finished Word of God, then "that which is in part" is done away.

As to the charismatic idea that every saved person speaks in tongues:

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Tongues and interpretation of tongues are among gifts that God has dispersed severally as the Spirit sees fit.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The obvious answer to these rhetorical questions is "NO." Not all speak in tongues and not all interpret. These are gifts that God has given to some in the church (when "that which is in part" was still the case).

 

[awaken]

I agree. What mascarades as "tongues" today have nothing to do with the real tongues of the Bible.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

If we do not have the full revelation of truth from God in His word yet, then tongues and prophecies of new revelation are present.
However, if we do have the finished Word of God, then "that which is in part" is done away.

As to the charismatic idea that every saved person speaks in tongues:

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Tongues and interpretation of tongues are among gifts that God has dispersed severally as the Spirit sees fit.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The obvious answer to these rhetorical questions is "NO." Not all speak in tongues and not all interpret. These are gifts that God has given to some in the church (when "that which is in part" was still the case).

you are confusing the ministries with 'praying in the spirit'...

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up that scripture to try and prove that tongues have ceased? So what are you saying "that which is perfect" is?

 

[12strings]

you are confusing the ministries with 'praying in the spirit'...

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up that scripture to try and prove that tongues have ceased? So what are you saying "that which is perfect" is?

While I don't think the "Tongues will cease" passage can validly be used to prove WHEN they will cease...

ARESMAN has given one very strong argument that not all will or need to speak in tongues...

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The obvious answer to these rhetorical questions is "NO." Not all speak in tongues and not all interpret. These are gifts that God has given to some in the church

WHAT SAY YOU ?

 

[awaken]

While I don't think the "Tongues will cease" passage can validly be used to prove WHEN they will cease...

ARESMAN has given one very strong argument that not all will or need to speak in tongues...

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The obvious answer to these rhetorical questions is "NO." Not all speak in tongues and not all interpret. These are gifts that God has given to some in the church

WHAT SAY YOU ?

These are ministry gifts! And no, not all are called into the ministry!

 

[Luke2427]

you are confusing the ministries with 'praying in the spirit'...

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up that scripture to try and prove that tongues have ceased? So what are you saying "that which is perfect" is?

Revelation.

That's what tongues were. The New Testament Christians had no Bible of their own (yes, they had the Old Testament). They did not have Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, etc...

So God did in the New Testament the exact same thing he did in the Old Testament. He spoke in unique ways until his people had the full revelation he intended to give them.

In the Old Testament he spoke out of burning bushes, he carved messages with his own finger into stone, he utilized still small voices, he took on the form of angels, he spoke from heaven, etc...

Nobody is for continuationism concerning THOSE means of revelation. Everybody knows those means of revelation have ceased. Everybody knows why. Because WE HAVE THE BIBLE.

So, it is silly, in my opinion, to argue for the continuation of these particular forms of revelation.

God has consistently throughout the Bible introduced a unique means of revelation until it could be recorded and assimilated and then caused it to cease.

One should naturally expect God to continue to do so with tongues. What's so special about this form of revelation that causes one to think that it should continue?

 

[awaken]

Revelation.

That's what tongues were. The New Testament Christians had no Bible of their own (yes, they had the Old Testament). They did not have Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, etc...

So God did in the New Testament the exact same thing he did in the Old Testament. He spoke in unique ways until his people had the full revelation he intended to give them.

In the Old Testament he spoke out of burning bushes, he carved messages with his own finger into stone, he utilized still small voices, he took on the form of angels, he spoke from heaven, etc...

Nobody is for continuationism concerning THOSE means of revelation. Everybody knows those means of revelation have ceased. Everybody knows why. Because WE HAVE THE BIBLE.

So, it is silly, in my opinion, to argue for the continuation of these particular forms of revelation.

God has consistently throughout the Bible introduced a unique means of revelation until it could be recorded and assimilated and then caused it to cease.

One should naturally expect God to continue to do so with tongues. What's so special about this form of revelation that causes one to think that it should continue?

I see this is your opinion on these gifts ceasing!

Now, can you show me in scripture how you defend this.

Because if we believe that this passage is referring to the completion of the New Testament then we are reading into the passage something which it does not actually say. For example, it's equally possible that Paul was referring to the completion of our salvation (which will occur when our bodies are transformed at the His coming), as in the following passage:

"he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)

The words "completion" or "perfection" can refer to any number of things. The fact that the Greek word for "perfection" can be translated as "completion" does not prove that Paul was referring to the completed New Testament.

 

[Luke2427]

I see this is your opinion on these gifts ceasing!

Now, can you show me in scripture how you defend this.

Yes, I can- but it is not necessary.

I don't have to prove that God parting seas and rivers allowing people to walk over on dry land has ceased.

Everybody KNOWS it has. We know it because we know that God did that for a specific people at a specific time. Could he do it today? Sure. Does he do it today? OBVIOUSLY NOT. Should we expect him to do it today? Of course not.

I don't have to prove that God is not giving new revelation on tablets of stone today. Every thinking Christian knows that this type of revelation giving was for a certain people at a certain time just as all of God's unique means of revelation were given.

For these exact same reasons no one should need anyone to prove to them that revelation giving by way of glossalia has ceased. It is patently obvious it was given for a specific people at a specific time.

 

[awaken]

Yes, I can- but it is not necessary.

I don't have to prove that God parting seas and rivers allowing people to walk over on dry land has ceased.

Everybody KNOWS it has. We know it because we know that God did that for a specific people at a specific time. Could he do it today? Sure. Does he do it today? OBVIOUSLY NOT. Should we expect him to do it today? Of course not.

I don't have to prove that God is not giving new revelation on tablets of stone today. Every thinking Christian knows that this type of revelation giving was for a certain people at a certain time just as all of God's unique means of revelation were given.

For these exact same reasons no one should need anyone to prove to them that revelation giving by way of glossalia has ceased. It is patently obvious it was given for a specific people at a specific time.

So you have no scripture proof! Because I can show you scriptures that show otherwise!

The best way to understand what Paul meant by the Greek word teleios ("perfection") is to examine every place he used it in Scripture and then to determine how he normally used this word. Apart from the verse we are studying (1 Corinthians 13:10), Paul used teleios seven other times in the New Testament (Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 2:6, 14:20, Ephesians 4:13, Philippians 3:15, Colossians 1:28, 4:12). With the sole exception of Romans 12:2, it's clear that every time Paul used the Greek word teleios ("perfection") he was referring to the spiritual maturity of believers, which will not be fully complete or perfect until we are resurrected and transformed at the return of Christ (e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The internal evidence of Paul's consistent use of teleios is a strong reason for understanding "perfection" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 as being a reference to our ultimate perfection in heaven. There's no evidence to suggest that Paul had the completed New Testament in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

 

[Luke2427]

So you have no scripture proof! Because I can show you scriptures that show otherwise!

You just called me a liar. I just told you that I do but that I don't even need it for all the reasons I enunciated above.

Deal with those reasons and then I'll give the Scriptural proof that is not even necessary to recognize that tongues, like all other instances of God's unique forms of revelation have ceased.

 

[awaken]

You just called me a liar. I just told you that I do but that I don't even need it for all the reasons I enunciated above.

Deal with those reasons and then I'll give the Scriptural proof that is not even necessary to recognize that tongues, like all other instances of God's unique forms of revelation have ceased.

No, I did not call you a liar...

But to futher lay out proof they have not ceased...

Although "complete" is a valid translation of the basic Greek word teleios, Paul actually used a specific form of this Greek word in 1 Corinthians 13:10 which has a very definite meaning. Paul used the Greek expression "to teleion," which specifically refers to our ultimate perfection in heaven (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1372). You can easily verify for yourself the expression that Paul used by going to any library or Christian bookstore and looking up 1 Corinthians 13:10 in any Greek version of the New Testament. If you then look up teleios in the Greek dictionary mentioned above you can verify that when it's used in the form of "to teleion" it refers to the heavenly perfection of our bodies, which we will not experience until our bodies are transformed and perfected at His coming.

Again, there is no evidence to suggest that Paul had the completed New Testament in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Instead, the evidence indicates that "perfection" refers to our ultimate maturity as believers.

 

[Luke2427]

No, I did not call you a liar...

But to futher lay out proof they have not ceased...

Although "complete" is a valid translation of the basic Greek word teleios, Paul actually used a specific form of this Greek word in 1 Corinthians 13:10 which has a very definite meaning. Paul used the Greek expression "to teleion," which specifically refers to our ultimate perfection in heaven (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1372). You can easily verify for yourself the expression that Paul used by going to any library or Christian bookstore and looking up 1 Corinthians 13:10 in any Greek version of the New Testament. If you then look up teleios in the Greek dictionary mentioned above you can verify that when it's used in the form of "to teleion" it refers to the heavenly perfection of our bodies, which we will not experience until our bodies are transformed and perfected at His coming.

Again, there is no evidence to suggest that Paul had the completed New Testament in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Instead, the evidence indicates that "perfection" refers to our ultimate maturity as believers.

No, no. This is not how debate works.

You invited us to tell you why we think tongues have ceased. You came loaded for bear to discuss only one possible reason we think tongues have ceased and that is all you want to talk about.

I Corinthians 13:10 is not the ONLY reason we thinnk tongues have ceased. It is not the only reason almost ALL Christians for 1600-1800 years have thought that tongues have ceased before the advent of pentecostalism.

I am glad that you have done some research on the Greek behind I Corinthians 13. But there is more to this subject and you are honor bound to discuss other things besides just the one thing which it seems you have done any study about.

The fact remains that God is not parting seas and rivers any more.

God is not carving messages in stone anymore.

And for the same reasons, God is not giving revelation through glossalia any more.

You need to deal with these plain facts.

The impetus is on you to prove that tongues ARE for today- not on us to prove that they aren't.

 

[awaken]

No, no. This is not how debate works.

You invited us to tell you why we think tongues have ceased. You came loaded for bear to discuss only one possible reason we think tongues have ceased and that is all you want to talk about.

I Corinthians 13:10 is not the ONLY reason we thinnk tongues have ceased. It is not the only reason almost ALL Christians for 1600-1800 years have thought that tongues have ceased before the advent of pentecostalism.

I am glad that you have done some research on the Greek behind I Corinthians 13. But there is more to this subject and you are honor bound to discuss other things besides just the one thing which it seems you have done any study about.

The fact remains that God is not parting seas and rivers any more.

God is not carving messages in stone anymore.

And for the same reasons, God is not giving revelation through glossalia any more.

You need to deal with these plain facts.

The impetus is on you to prove that tongues ARE for today- not on us to prove that they aren't.

Well as for parting seas etc. I agree I have not seen the need for that either.
I am only responding to what others have posted against it.

I have been on both sides of this...and I know the debates! But what I want most if for you to search this out and pray for God to open your mind that religion has shut!

I did not see until I went to God crying out for clarity on this. When I come across this I was searching to defend the other side of it!

 

[DHK]

These are ministry gifts! And no, not all are called into the ministry!

No, they are "sign gifts," the sign of an apostle.
They were only used by some in the ministry during the first century when revelation was not complete, when that which is perfect or complete (was not yet come) which is the Word of God, then that which is in part (tongues, prophecy, revelatory knowledge) was done away. It was not needed any longer. By the time the last apostle died (John) at the end of the first century, the canon of Scripture was complete (made perfect), and those revelatory gifts were not needed any more--the ones mentioned in 1Cor.13:8.

They are compared to faith hope and charity at the end of the chapter. But Paul says of these three gifts that charity or love is the greatest. Why? Because faith and hope will also pass away. When? When Jesus comes again. Faith is only in effect for as long as we don't see him. But when Christ comes we no longer need faith for we shall see him as he is. The same is true with hope. He is our hope. We hope for what we see not. But when the blessed hope of our salvation appears our hope will be fulfilled. Thus faith and hope will be nor more needed when Christ appears.

That leaves love. Love is greatest because love is never-ending.

In 1Cor.12:28 the gifts are listed in order, and in order of importance. That is, firstly, secondly, and after that, then, etc. At the very end is the least important of all the gifts--tongues. It wasn't an important gift. The problem with the Corinthians was that instead of seeking a more beneficial gift like teaching, they sought a more "showy" gift, often carnal, but least important.
Paul said he would rather speak 10,000 words with understanding then five words in tongues (without understanding). That was the relevant importance of this particular gift. If my post had only five words in it, it would be more beneficial than a post with 10,000 words in a language no one could understand.

Tongues was a language, an actual language, a foreign language that others in a foreign nation would understand. The proper application of this in today's culture would be that those who would have the gift would not have to study a foreign language in order to be a missionary to a foreign nation. But that doesn't happen. It did happen to Paul--many times.
He said: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all."

1. It was an actual foreign language. "How hear we every man in our own language."
2. It was given as a means of revelation before the NT was complete.
3. It was given as a sign to the apostles that the apostles were genuine messengers of God, and that their message was genuine. (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4)
4. It was given as a sign to the Jews. (1Cor.12:21,22)

They were temporary and ceased at the end of the first century.
Can you give any evidence that Biblical tongues is being spoken today. Remember it is a gift, a spiritual gift. There would be evidence today if some had this gift today.

 

[Luke2427]

Well as for parting seas etc. I agree I have not seen the need for that either.
I am only responding to what others have posted against it.

I have been on both sides of this...and I know the debates! But what I want most if for you to search this out and pray for God to open your mind that religion has shut!

I did not see until I went to God crying out for clarity on this. When I come across this I was searching to defend the other side of it!

God does open minds- but he does it through Scripture.

There is absolutely no scriptural reason to think that tongues continued past the age of the apostles just like there is no Scriptural reason to believe that God still engraves messages in stone tablets.

Unique forms of revelation are for specific people at specific times until the message is recorded and assimilated in the Scriptures.

That's the way it was for the entire Old Testament and there is absolutely no logical reason to think that it would be any different in the new.

Especially since God has OBVIOUSLY NOT been doing this tongues thing for well over a thousand years.

And it is silly to think that all of the sudden these pentecostals that popped up in the first decade of the last century are right and about 1800 years of Christians before them were all wrong.

Tongues DID cease. That is the SINGLE BEST argument for tongues ceasing- they DID.

This is not a topic we should even have to discuss. The church knew this before the Enlightenment and Darwinism and the church fled from intellectualism to stupidity because it was afraid that it could no longer stand in the intellectual arena.

When we became feelers instead of thinkers this weird crud and tons of other crud like it flooded our religious culture.

When the church returns to her moorings as a thinking people, what people call tongues today will go away.