Featured Good Debate 2

Do you actually believe 'sozo' is used in the sense of 'born from above' here? Do you think Christ meant 'lest they should obtain eternal life'? Evangelicals tend to have tunnel vision when it comes to this word and read into it something that is not intended.

How about this one?:

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish. Lu 12 (read the context and see what 'in like manner' is referring back to)

..or this?:

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lu 12

Do you think Christ meant 'except ye repent, ye shall all likewise burn in hell for eternity'?

No, Christ is referring to the wrath to come upon that generation. He is using 'sozo' in exactly the same sense as Peter at Pentecost:

And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2:40

...meaning:

And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:23

 

"..."lest they should be... saved."..."

Disregard. That's not even what it says, sozo is not used in the passage, I guess that's your all's paraphrase....talk about reading into a passage....

 

It is impossible to show something to anyone who has made a veil(their own understanding) in how they see all scriptures.

We are all going to die physically death, our bodies are decaying and falling apart. Physical death is not a tragedy, dying without God ,Jesus Christ, in our life is. To eat every word He spoke, to drink in the life He lived to have His life dwell in us, to have what we don't have without Him (life). We must repent turn to God through Jesus Christ and live.

I am sorry having a hard heard can be changed by turning to Jesus just the way you are without any understanding to listen and learn from Him and we will find rest for our souls He will open your eyes, but having no heart what a waste. Our bodies are all going to face the wrath to come, but what is on the inside does not have to just turn to God through Jesus Christ and live. The Gospel is more important than our agenda's.

I am talking about before the rapture.

 

We all have our method of approaching Scripture. The person on the other side of the argument certainly seems to be veiling their own understanding. Name me one person who holds to a position and thinks that they are guilty of that.

 

Because Jesus was fulfilling OT prophecy. And when Jesus did speak forthright, they still didn't understand (just like I was until the Lord's light shined through)

Mark 8:14-16
Jesus’ disciples had forgotten to bring any bread, so they had only one loaf with them in the boat. He gave them strict orders: “Watch out and be on your guard for the yeast of the Pharisees as well as the yeast of Herod.” The disciples discussed this among themselves, “He said this because we have no bread.”

Yea, Jesus picks the smart ones alright :thumbs:

These verses seem to go together nicely:

To Gideon, who was hiding out in a wine press:
the angel of the Lord appeared unto him and said, “The Lord is with you, O mighty man of valor.” - Judges 6:12

“He said this because we have no bread.” - Mark 8:16

"So I said to them, ‘Whoever has gold, take it off!’ So they gave it to me, I threw it into the fire, and out came this bull calf!” - Exodus 32:24

"For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth." - 1 Corinthians 1:26

 

1 Corinthians 11:28
Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

When a righteous man before God says I am done I am a man with unclean lips tells me no one is perfect, yet we want men to lead us.

There is only one perfect in scripture and one God Jesus Christ and it is in Him we lay our trust not our own understanding. There is only one Jeshurun (Jeshurun means the upright one, that is, Israel.) Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

 

Is that an answer to my question?

 

You ask me to Name me one person who holds to a position and thinks that they are guilty of that.

I tell you basically only Christ is perfect and we need to examine ourselves to Him if we are in the faith. Scripture explains better than my words that i wish i can express as well as they have.

 

I think you misunderstood me (or I worded myself poorly). How many people who hold to a position think they are wrong? I'm assuming, for the sake of argument, that the person has studied their position and came to believe it honestly. For instance, I do not believe in a pretribulational rapture of the Church. I came to that opinion honestly and after much study and prayer. I assume that you do believe in a pretribulational rapture of the Church. Okay. Fine. The both of us hold contrary views. Do you believe I am veiled in my understanding? If you do, then the same accusation can be made of you. Of course Scripture is the final arbiter, so one of us is wrong.

 

Mine and your opinion is nice to hear, but it is not the Gospel truth. What is in black in white in the passages of scripture is more important than our opinion.

When I talk about rapture I am talking about these passages that you know and probably have an answer for them.

1 Thessalonians 4:
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15 :
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Matthew 24 :
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

I also believe in the thousand year reign on earth with Christ, one day we will know for sure how these work together and we can come to all kinds of opinions and how they work, but what matters is the word of God.

 

You really are missing the point. We both agree that Scripture is the final authority. You quote verses that you are convinced teach that there will be a rapture. I don't see the rapture in the 1 Thessalonians and Matthew passages, I see the second coming (1 Corinthians 15 is about the resurrection in general). Why do you and I view these passages differently? THAT is the question. Why?

 

I just see scripture as it says, rapture is like Elijah and Enoch. I view those scripture by scripture. It is simple i have not put my opinion in it that is the fact, if i have it is meaningless to the plain fact of the words in scripture. I am to trust in the word of God over my own understanding or opinions. That is the point i have been making and saying.

 

Then why can you and I look at the same passage and come to different conclusions?

 

What different conclusion we come up with i've just showed scripture and no opinion. I have not said when or who are why people get raptures and only showed two example's from scripture. I have just given scripture. What is my opinion that is different from scripture? Is the scripture i gave my opinion? What's Friday say, just the facts who ever he is addressing, just the facts. When i said rapture i was talking to those who believe in, not that i have an opinion on it.

 

Do you have a personal position on the rapture?

 

I can tell you what the scripture say's and i agree with, beyond that is opinion. The scripture is how we should look at it period. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Why go any further than the clear text. I love hearing men opinions of them, but that is as far as a look at them. The best from scripture as taken is found by what happen to Enoch

Revelation 20
The Thousand Years

20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[Or God; I also saw those who] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
The Judgment of Satan

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Daniel 7 :
9 “As I looked,

“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[The Aramaic phrase bar enash means human being. The phrase son of man is retained here because of its use in the New Testament as a title of Jesus, probably based largely on this verse.] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Both will happen praise be, how it comes together heaven knows