An Ongoing Study/Debate of the New Testament

[The Biblicist]

Next passage:


Luke 3:21-22
English Standard Version (ESV)


21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son;[a] with you I am well pleased.”

Footnotes:a.Luke 3:22 Or my Son, my (or the) Beloved
b.Luke 3:22 Some manuscripts beloved Son; today I have begotten you

Is there a visible sign or means in this passage by which God demonstrates a spiritual reality? Yes! The Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in a bodily form, like a dove and an audible voice declares: "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."

This is another example of God using visible and audible means to demonstrate his Almighty Power and Glory.

Another false and pretensious attempt to justify the anti-Biblical concept of "sacraments."

1. Jesus is God in the flesh and without need of "sacaments"

2. This is not a SALVATION context as Jesus does not need salvation by means or without means.

3. The manifestion of the Father and the Spirit "like as" a dove does not mean it was a dove, but merely a manifestation of God's Spirit.

This passage has no bearing on the subject whatsoever UNLESS you believe Christ is in need of saving grace, or is a sinner, or is in need of personal sanctification.

The very fact that Christ submitted to baptism as defined by John the Baptist is an obvious clear repudiation of your whole system of soteriology because he was born SINLESS and such a rite as LUTHERAN defined would oxymoronic for Christ to submit to it!

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is another explanation of the Means of Grace. This is from the Doctrinal Statement of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. For more detail go to: http://www.lcms.org


Of the Means of Grace

21. Although God is present and operates everywhere throughout all creation and the whole
earth is therefore full of the temporal bounties and blessings of God, Col. 1:17; Acts 17:28;
14:17, still we hold with Scripture that God offers and communicates to men the spiritual
blessings purchased by Christ, namely, the forgiveness of sins and the treasures and gifts
connected therewith, only through the external means of grace ordained by Him.

There are several errors in the above rationale. First, temporal bounties and blessings are EXTERNAL in nature without any conversion impact on the INTERNAL nature of man - Rom. 1:18-21; Rom. 8:7. The natural man always rejects such external manifestations but they do make him accountable for his rejection. In Romans 1:18 Paul says that such external witnesses are resisted and held down down but never successful in conversion. If you deny this, I challenge you to find ONE single verse in Romans 1:18-32 that even IMPLIES it is ever successful.

Second, they ignore the CONSISTENT Biblical order that the gospel precedes ordinances and that such ordinances do not effect any kind of internal change of nature or condition of man - Rom. 4:9-11; Heb. 10:1-4 but are merely external consequential and never causative or instrumental in conveying internal change of nature. Explain this - the same preacher preaching the same gospel to two brothers from the very same background and yet one repents and believes but the other does not. If the power was inherent in the gospel then the consequences should be the same but it is not. The power is in God alone and one is effectually called (1 Cor. 1:26-31) and if you deny that then explain why every single one "called" in Romans 8:30 is also justified and glorified.

These
means of grace are the Word of the Gospel, in every form in which it is brought to man, and
the Sacraments of Holy Baptism and of the Lord's Supper.

No Bible, Greek, Latin or English uses "musterion" or "sacrament" to ever describe, characterize or identify baptism or the Lord's Supper. This is pure superstitious paganistic cultic error.

The Word of the gospel promises
and applies the grace of God, works faith and thus regenerates man, and gives the Holy Ghost,
Acts 20:24; Rom. 10:17; 1 Pet. 1:23; Gal. 3:2.

This is false! The gospel in and of itself conveys no such things. The gospel has no inherent power to convey anything. The gospel only becomes the "power" of God when God empowers it as His word of command (Rom. 10:17 "rhema") so that it becomes His "creative word" (2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10a; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23). When the gospel comes in "word only" (1 Thes. 1:4-5) it saves, changes, converts, regenerates NNE and that is seen every single time it is preached. God gives all these things by his own power WHEN he chooses to empower the gospel.

Baptism, too, is applied for the remission of sins
and is therefore a washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:38; 22:16;
Titus 3:5. Likewise the object of the Lord's Supper, that is, of the ministration of the body and
blood of Christ, is none other than the communication and sealing of the forgiveness of sins,
as the words declare: "Given for you," and: "Shed for you for the remission of sins," Luke
22:19, 20; Matt. 26:28, and "This cup is the New Testament in My blood," 1 Cor. 11:23; Jer.
31:31‐34 ("New Covenant").

No one denies baptism and the Lord's Supper convey these things. That is not the issue. The issue is HOW do external ordinance do so? That is answered by Paul explicitly and directly in Romans 4:5-11 and so does the writer of hebrews 10:1-4.

22. Since it is only through the external means ordained by Him that God has promised to
communicate the grace and salvation purchased by Christ, the Christian Church must not
remain at home with the means of grace entrusted to it, but go into the whole world with the
preaching of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments, Matt. 28:19, 20; Mark
16:15, 16. For the same reason also the churches at home should never forget that there is no
other way of winning souls for the Church and keeping them with it than the faithful and
diligent use of the divinely ordained means of grace. Whatever activities do not either directly
apply the Word of God or subserve such application we condemn as "new methods,"
unchurchly activities, which do not build, but harm the Church.

Another error in the above line of thinking is that the problem in man and the solution for that problem has never changed from the fall to the present and yet EXTERNAL RITES have not only changed but at times completely absent (Romans 4:11 and previous to Abraham) but the nature of remission of sins by faith has not (Acts 10:43). This is absolute evidence that external rites have NEVER been the instrumental means to remit sins (Heb. 10:1-4).

23. We reject as a dangerous error the doctrine, which disrupted the Church of the
Reformation, that the grace and the Spirit of God are communicated not through the external
means ordained by Him, but by an immediate operation of grace. This erroneous doctrine
Page 7 of 14
bases the forgiveness of sins, or justification, upon a fictitious "infused grace," that is, upon a
quality of man, and thus again establishes the work‐doctrine of the papists.

They simply reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel conveys nothing but ASSERTS or PROCLAIMS and PROMISES that salvation is found in and received through faith alone in Christ's work FOR sinners.

"Infused" righteousness is new birth or regeneration but the Bible teaches that justification is "imputed" and it is not "fictious" but factuallly based upon substitutionary penal atonement by Christ taking upon the human nature and assuming the POSITION of a penal sacrifice in the place of sinners - Isa. 53; Rom. 3:24-5:2.

 

[Wittenberger]

Well, it is clear that Wittenberger is on here to proselyte and it is also clear that he has no intentions of being open or objective. Also, it is clear that it will be pure frustration to respond to his errors hoping he can be turned from them as the past clearly demonstrates that to be a false hope.

It is clear that he will continue to post false doctrine after false doctrine and therefore it needs to be exposed and condemned for what it is - error.

He knows that neither the Greek or Latin Scriptures ever use "musterion" (translated "sacraments") for baptism or the Lord's Supper. So this presumptive "sacramental" application to baptism is purely pagan and not Biblical in any sense.

I challenge him to produce ONE SCRIPTURE either in the Greek, English or Latin where "musterion" or "sacrament" is ever once used to describe or characterize either baptism or the Lord's Supper.

The whole concept of "sacrament" is condemned by the scriptures in Romans 4:9-11 (which this Lutheran runs from).

I will be happy to provide you with a verse that uses the word "mystery" or "sacrament" when you provide me with a verse that uses the word "Trinity".

 

[Wittenberger]

There are several errors in the above rationale. First, temporal bounties and blessings are EXTERNAL in nature without any conversion impact on the INTERNAL nature of man - Rom. 1:18-21; Rom. 8:7. The natural man always rejects such external manifestations but they do make him accountable for his rejection. In Romans 1:18 Paul says that such external witnesses are resisted and held down down but never successful in conversion. If you deny this, I challenge you to find ONE single verse in Romans 1:18-32 that even IMPLIES it is ever successful.

Second, they ignore the CONSISTENT Biblical order that the gospel precedes ordinances and that such ordinances do not effect any kind of internal change of nature or condition of man - Rom. 4:9-11; Heb. 10:1-4 but are merely external consequential and never causative or instrumental in conveying internal change of nature. Explain this - the same preacher preaching the same gospel to two brothers from the very same background and yet one repents and believes but the other does not. If the power was inherent in the gospel then the consequences should be the same but it is not. The power is in God alone and one is effectually called (1 Cor. 1:26-31) and if you deny that then explain why every single one "called" in Romans 8:30 is also justified and glorified.





No Bible, Greek, Latin or English uses "musterion" or "sacrament" to ever describe, characterize or identify baptism or the Lord's Supper. This is pure superstitious paganistic cultic error.




This is false! The gospel in and of itself conveys no such things. The gospel has no inherent power to convey anything. The gospel only becomes the "power" of God when God empowers it as His word of command (Rom. 10:17 "rhema") so that it becomes His "creative word" (2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10a; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23). When the gospel comes in "word only" (1 Thes. 1:4-5) it saves, changes, converts, regenerates NNE and that is seen every single time it is preached. God gives all these things by his own power WHEN he chooses to empower the gospel.



No one denies baptism and the Lord's Supper convey these things. That is not the issue. The issue is HOW do external ordinance do so? That is answered by Paul explicitly and directly in Romans 4:5-11 and so does the writer of hebrews 10:1-4.



Another error in the above line of thinking is that the problem in man and the solution for that problem has never changed from the fall to the present and yet EXTERNAL RITES have not only changed but at times completely absent (Romans 4:11 and previous to Abraham) but the nature of remission of sins by faith has not (Acts 10:43). This is absolute evidence that external rites have NEVER been the instrumental means to remit sins (Heb. 10:1-4).



They simply reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel conveys nothing but ASSERTS or PROCLAIMS and PROMISES that salvation is found in and received through faith alone in Christ's work FOR sinners.

"Infused" righteousness is new birth or regeneration but the Bible teaches that justification is "imputed" and it is not "fictious" but factuallly based upon substitutionary penal atonement by Christ taking upon the human nature and assuming the POSITION of a penal sacrifice in the place of sinners - Isa. 53; Rom. 3:24-5:2.

The Baptist doctrine of justification depends on the intellect, maturity and cooperation of man. This is a works doctrine that Lutherans in the day of Luther believed that Anabaptists obtained directly from Rome: a doctrine of works.

Salvation in entirely a work of God. He does not need nor does he permit your cooperation or assistance in saving you.

Faith, belief and repentance are ALL gifts from God. They are not something you conjure up yourself as a sinner because according to both Colossians and Ephesians the sinner is spiritually dead. Dead men cannot produce faith, belief or repentance. Dead mean are dead! They are not capable of doing ANYTHING! God gives salvation to those HE has chosen, not the other way around. Sinful man does not choose, he does not "accept", he does not make a "decision" for God. HE IS DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!!!

That is the core problem with Baptist doctrine. It is based on man's capability to make a decision, and according to God's Holy Word that is a doctrine of Works, no different than Rome.

 

[Wittenberger]

There are several errors in the above rationale. First, temporal bounties and blessings are EXTERNAL in nature without any conversion impact on the INTERNAL nature of man - Rom. 1:18-21; Rom. 8:7. The natural man always rejects such external manifestations but they do make him accountable for his rejection. In Romans 1:18 Paul says that such external witnesses are resisted and held down down but never successful in conversion. If you deny this, I challenge you to find ONE single verse in Romans 1:18-32 that even IMPLIES it is ever successful.

Second, they ignore the CONSISTENT Biblical order that the gospel precedes ordinances and that such ordinances do not effect any kind of internal change of nature or condition of man - Rom. 4:9-11; Heb. 10:1-4 but are merely external consequential and never causative or instrumental in conveying internal change of nature. Explain this - the same preacher preaching the same gospel to two brothers from the very same background and yet one repents and believes but the other does not. If the power was inherent in the gospel then the consequences should be the same but it is not. The power is in God alone and one is effectually called (1 Cor. 1:26-31) and if you deny that then explain why every single one "called" in Romans 8:30 is also justified and glorified.





No Bible, Greek, Latin or English uses "musterion" or "sacrament" to ever describe, characterize or identify baptism or the Lord's Supper. This is pure superstitious paganistic cultic error.




This is false! The gospel in and of itself conveys no such things. The gospel has no inherent power to convey anything. The gospel only becomes the "power" of God when God empowers it as His word of command (Rom. 10:17 "rhema") so that it becomes His "creative word" (2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10a; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23). When the gospel comes in "word only" (1 Thes. 1:4-5) it saves, changes, converts, regenerates NNE and that is seen every single time it is preached. God gives all these things by his own power WHEN he chooses to empower the gospel.



No one denies baptism and the Lord's Supper convey these things. That is not the issue. The issue is HOW do external ordinance do so? That is answered by Paul explicitly and directly in Romans 4:5-11 and so does the writer of hebrews 10:1-4.



Another error in the above line of thinking is that the problem in man and the solution for that problem has never changed from the fall to the present and yet EXTERNAL RITES have not only changed but at times completely absent (Romans 4:11 and previous to Abraham) but the nature of remission of sins by faith has not (Acts 10:43). This is absolute evidence that external rites have NEVER been the instrumental means to remit sins (Heb. 10:1-4).



They simply reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel conveys nothing but ASSERTS or PROCLAIMS and PROMISES that salvation is found in and received through faith alone in Christ's work FOR sinners.

"Infused" righteousness is new birth or regeneration but the Bible teaches that justification is "imputed" and it is not "fictious" but factuallly based upon substitutionary penal atonement by Christ taking upon the human nature and assuming the POSITION of a penal sacrifice in the place of sinners - Isa. 53; Rom. 3:24-5:2.

It is a concept, brother, just as is the Trinity. Just because the word naming the concept is not in the Bible, does not mean that the concept is not scriptural, unless you are not a Trinitarian. Are you a Trinitarian? If so then you believe in a concept, the word of which, cannot be found in the Bible. Baptists and evangelicals need to get over their phobia of the word "sacrament".

 

[The Biblicist]

I will be happy to provide you with a verse that uses the word "mystery" or "sacrament" when you provide me with a verse that uses the word "Trinity".

You are again radically advertising you have absolutely no objectivity and thus no honesty in claiming you are open minded. You are not even honest enough to admit the obvious.

However, let me ask you a question. Is the term "Trinity" found in the scriptures or is a translation of a Greek or Latin term in scriptures? No! However, is the term "sacramentum" actually found in the Latin text and thus a translation of "musterion" in the Greek text? YES!

Lutherans are guilty of MISHANDING the Scriptures when MISapplying this BIBLICAL term to baptism and the Lord's Supper when the Bible does not do that. That is FACT!

I am not mishandling scriptures or abusing scriptures by the use of "Trinity."

I hate to tell you this but I oppose the use of the term "Trinity" and do not use it unless I have no other choice when someone else brings it into the discusssion. I use the Biblical term "Godhead."

 

[The Biblicist]

The Baptist doctrine of justification depends on the intellect, maturity and cooperation of man.

No it does not! Regeneration is the cause of change whereas repentance and faith are consequences. Justification by faith is the flip side of repentance which are the fruits of regeneration whereby God worketh in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (philip. 2:13). Both repentance and faith = conversion which is the human side of divine regeneration and regeneration is completed in conversion. There is no such thing as an unregenerated believer or a regenerated unbeliever but they are simeltaneous in regard to chronological order but are in a cause and effect relationship in regard to logical order.

Salvation in entirely a work of God. He does not need nor does he permit your cooperation or assistance in saving you.

Faith, belief and repentance are ALL gifts from God. They are not something you conjure up yourself as a sinner because according to both Colossians and Ephesians the sinner is spiritually dead. Dead men cannot produce faith, belief or repentance. Dead mean are dead! They are not capable of doing ANYTHING! God gives salvation to those HE has chosen, not the other way around. Sinful man does not choose, he does not "accept", he does not make a "decision" for God. HE IS DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!!!

Amen! That is precisely why salvation of dying infants or those capable of rational decision begins with REGENERATION which is completed in the CHANGE of mind and heart.

Here is your problem. Whether salvation of dying infants or adults they must be chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world as there is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ. All the elect (infant or adults) are chosen by God TO salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth - 2 Thes. 2:13 or they are not God's elect and they are not saved.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is a concept, brother, just as is the Trinity. Just because the word naming the concept is not in the Bible, does not mean that the concept is not scriptural, unless you are not a Trinitarian.

Your missing the point. The term "Trinity" is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE but the term "sacrament" IS FOUND and Lutherans are guilty of MISHANDLING Biblical termionology as well as meaning.

 

[saturneptune]

Your missing the point. The term "Trinity" is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE but the term "sacrament" IS FOUND and Lutherans are guilty of MISHANDLING Biblical termionology as well as meaning.

Lutheran handling of their two sacraments (Baptism and the Lord's Supper) are a watered down version of the RCC sacraments. (too many to list) The Lord's Supper was instituted by Jesus Christ in rememberence of Him. It is a symbol of remembering what the Lord did for us until His return. It is not a magic act where wafers and wine are transformed into the physical body of Christ. It is also not a watered down version of the body of Christ known as sacramental union or consubstantiation. The Lord's Supper is a sacred event and not a side show. In any event, the correct term is ordinance.

Since both Lutherans and Catholics practice infant baptism, the subject is not even worthy of comment.

 

[Wittenberger]

There are several errors in the above rationale. First, temporal bounties and blessings are EXTERNAL in nature without any conversion impact on the INTERNAL nature of man - Rom. 1:18-21; Rom. 8:7. The natural man always rejects such external manifestations but they do make him accountable for his rejection. In Romans 1:18 Paul says that such external witnesses are resisted and held down down but never successful in conversion. If you deny this, I challenge you to find ONE single verse in Romans 1:18-32 that even IMPLIES it is ever successful.

Second, they ignore the CONSISTENT Biblical order that the gospel precedes ordinances and that such ordinances do not effect any kind of internal change of nature or condition of man - Rom. 4:9-11; Heb. 10:1-4 but are merely external consequential and never causative or instrumental in conveying internal change of nature. Explain this - the same preacher preaching the same gospel to two brothers from the very same background and yet one repents and believes but the other does not. If the power was inherent in the gospel then the consequences should be the same but it is not. The power is in God alone and one is effectually called (1 Cor. 1:26-31) and if you deny that then explain why every single one "called" in Romans 8:30 is also justified and glorified.





No Bible, Greek, Latin or English uses "musterion" or "sacrament" to ever describe, characterize or identify baptism or the Lord's Supper. This is pure superstitious paganistic cultic error.




This is false! The gospel in and of itself conveys no such things. The gospel has no inherent power to convey anything. The gospel only becomes the "power" of God when God empowers it as His word of command (Rom. 10:17 "rhema") so that it becomes His "creative word" (2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10a; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23). When the gospel comes in "word only" (1 Thes. 1:4-5) it saves, changes, converts, regenerates NNE and that is seen every single time it is preached. God gives all these things by his own power WHEN he chooses to empower the gospel.



No one denies baptism and the Lord's Supper convey these things. That is not the issue. The issue is HOW do external ordinance do so? That is answered by Paul explicitly and directly in Romans 4:5-11 and so does the writer of hebrews 10:1-4.



Another error in the above line of thinking is that the problem in man and the solution for that problem has never changed from the fall to the present and yet EXTERNAL RITES have not only changed but at times completely absent (Romans 4:11 and previous to Abraham) but the nature of remission of sins by faith has not (Acts 10:43). This is absolute evidence that external rites have NEVER been the instrumental means to remit sins (Heb. 10:1-4).



They simply reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel conveys nothing but ASSERTS or PROCLAIMS and PROMISES that salvation is found in and received through faith alone in Christ's work FOR sinners.

"Infused" righteousness is new birth or regeneration but the Bible teaches that justification is "imputed" and it is not "fictious" but factuallly based upon substitutionary penal atonement by Christ taking upon the human nature and assuming the POSITION of a penal sacrifice in the place of sinners - Isa. 53; Rom. 3:24-5:2.

One reason I don't answer all your questions is that you respond to issues as if you were writing your doctoral thesis or speaking to another theologian. I'm a layperson. Use everyday English with me if you want to engage me. I'm willing to discuss issues, but I have to understand what you are talking about first.

The Gospel IS the Word and the Word is sharper than any two-edged sword. It is the power of God's Word that saves. The Word of God is the primary means of grace. That is why Lutherans DO NOT believe that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

God uses his Word to save those he has called. It is the Word that quickens those who have been predestined, those who have been called, to believe. Someone who has not been predistined or called may hear the Word but like Festus (?) they may be "almost persuaded" but they are still spiritually dead. It is the Word that gives the ability to have faith, to believe and to repent. These actions are NOT accomplished in a FREE WILL decision to come to God! Sinners are dead spiritually. They cannot come to God, accept God, make a decision for God, or do anything else...because they are DEAD!!

 

[Wittenberger]

You are again radically advertising you have absolutely no objectivity and thus no honesty in claiming you are open minded. You are not even honest enough to admit the obvious.

However, let me ask you a question. Is the term "Trinity" found in the scriptures or is a translation of a Greek or Latin term in scriptures? No! However, is the term "sacramentum" actually found in the Latin text and thus a translation of "musterion" in the Greek text? YES!

Lutherans are guilty of MISHANDING the Scriptures when MISapplying this BIBLICAL term to baptism and the Lord's Supper when the Bible does not do that. That is FACT!

I am not mishandling scriptures or abusing scriptures by the use of "Trinity."

I hate to tell you this but I oppose the use of the term "Trinity" and do not use it unless I have no other choice when someone else brings it into the discusssion. I use the Biblical term "Godhead."

You seem determined to get me kicked off of this site. I'm not a Mormon or JW preaching some new doctrine. I'm a Lutheran. We have been around for almost 500 years. You Baptists have had many, many years to point out all our "false doctrine". So why do you fear my message so much??

 

[Wittenberger]

No it does not! Regeneration is the cause of change whereas repentance and faith are consequences. Justification by faith is the flip side of repentance which are the fruits of regeneration whereby God worketh in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (philip. 2:13). Both repentance and faith = conversion which is the human side of divine regeneration and regeneration is completed in conversion. There is no such thing as an unregenerated believer or a regenerated unbeliever but they are simeltaneous in regard to chronological order but are in a cause and effect relationship in regard to logical order.



Amen! That is precisely why salvation of dying infants or those capable of rational decision begins with REGENERATION which is completed in the CHANGE of mind and heart.

Here is your problem. Whether salvation of dying infants or adults they must be chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world as there is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ. All the elect (infant or adults) are chosen by God TO salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth - 2 Thes. 2:13 or they are not God's elect and they are not saved.

What a shock! I completely agree with you!

Unless God has predestined you, called you, chosen you, before the world existed you can get baptized from now and every day for the rest of this millenium and you will NOT be saved.

Lutherans believe in predestination, we just do not believe in 'Double Predestination" as do the Calvinists. We believe that God chooses who will go to heaven, and man chooses to send himself to hell. Lutherans believe that Christ shed his blood for ALL mankind, not just for the Elect.

We baptize the infants of believers because we believe that God commands us to. Since no man, adult or child, plays any role in his salvation because it is a free gift, completely accomplished by God, the person's age, maturity, intellect/ IQ are not involved in the act of salvation.

If God has selected an infant who is baptized to be one of the Elect, then when that child grows up, the faith that God gave him at the time of His choosing (we believe at his baptism), will be evident and He will believe. If the child that was baptized is NOT one of the Elect, the baptism will have no effect, he will not have faith, will not produce good works and he will not be saved.

Lutherans do NOT believe that all persons who undergo infant baptism are saved! Salvation must always be received by faith, but the faith is a gift from God, not produced by the spiritually dead sinner.

If the child does not grow up and produce the fruits of faith (good works), then it is proof that he was not one of the Elect.

All those who are the Elect will be saved and cannot lose their salvation. However, we believe that some will believe and then fall away as in the Parable of the Sower, but if they fall away, they were obviously not of the Elect.

You sound like a Calviinist, which I believe is a big improvement over an Arminian! So explain (in layman's terms) when is it that someone is saved? When they make a decision or when God makes a decision to quicken them? Must they possess certain human qualities such as maturity, intelligence, the knowledge of Good and Evil, and the ability to make a decision to believe, or does God do it all by himself without those human qualities?

If you believe, as do most Calvinists, that God chose you by his own criteria, before the world existed, then why can't he "quicken" an infant just as "quickens" an adult? If salvation is all God, why put a limit on what age God can save someone and implant in them the gifts of faith, belief and repentance that will demonstrate their spiritual presence in the child when he grows up?

If you are a Calvinist and believe that God chooses us, we don't choose Him, then why can't you believe that God can quicken someone as a child? It is the Arminians who require man to be mature enough to make a free will decision, which is in complete disagreement with the Word of God in Ephesians and Colossians chapter 2.

 

[Wittenberger]

Your missing the point. The term "Trinity" is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE but the term "sacrament" IS FOUND and Lutherans are guilty of MISHANDLING Biblical termionology as well as meaning.

You lost me. Please explain.

 

[Wittenberger]

Lutheran handling of their two sacraments (Baptism and the Lord's Supper) are a watered down version of the RCC sacraments. (too many to list) The Lord's Supper was instituted by Jesus Christ in rememberence of Him. It is a symbol of remembering what the Lord did for us until His return. It is not a magic act where wafers and wine are transformed into the physical body of Christ. It is also not a watered down version of the body of Christ known as sacramental union or consubstantiation. The Lord's Supper is a sacred event and not a side show. In any event, the correct term is ordinance.

Since both Lutherans and Catholics practice infant baptism, the subject is not even worthy of comment.

Could you please give me the book, chapter and verse of Scripture that uses the word "ordinance".

"I am THE door."
"I am THE good shepherd."
"I am THE vine."
"I am THE way."

This is clearly metaphorical language. Why?

Christ does not say, "I am this green door with the black door knob."
"I am that good shepherd over there with the red coat."
"I am that vine over there on the brick wall."
"I am that way that runs north of the temple."

But he did say, "THIS is my body...THIS is my blood."

That is not metaphorical language. "Is" means "is"! Don't be a Bill Clinton!

The entire Christian world has always believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper until Zwingli took it upon himself to change a fundamental doctrine of the Church almost 1,500 years after the Church's foundation! It isn't "magic" anymore that when the water was turned into wine, the blind were made to see, and the dead were raised back to life...it's GOD ALMIGHTY not magic!

 

[saturneptune]

So why do you fear my message so much??

Again, a false premise. No one said they feared your message. No one said you are a heretic. It has been said over and over again that Lutherans are much closer to the truth of the Scripture than the RCC. I assume that is why the Lutherans seperated from the RCC 500 years ago.

 

[saturneptune]

Could you please give me the book, chapter and verse of Scripture that uses the word "ordinance".

"I am THE door."
"I am THE good shepherd."
"I am THE vine."
"I am THE way."

This is clearly metaphorical language. Why?

Christ does not say, "I am this green door with the black door knob."
"I am that good shepherd over there with the red coat."
"I am that vine over there on the brick wall."
"I am that way that runs north of the temple."

But he did say, "THIS is my body...THIS is my blood."

That is not metaphorical language. "Is" means "is"! Don't be a Bill Clinton!

The entire Christian world has always believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper until Zwingli took it upon himself to change a fundamental doctrine of the Church almost 1,500 years after the Church's beginning.

What does "I am the Door" have to do with the Lord's Supper. It has to do with our access the God.

How can you possibly come to the conclusion that "this is My body" in 1 Cor 11:24 represents a physical mainifestation of the body of Jesus, magically transported through time, deminsion, and eternity every time a Lord's Supper is held around the world? This is a symbol to remember what He did for us. The power to forgive sins is not a magic act. It is faith in the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ, and His finished work on the cross. It seems like the importance of a transformation of grape juice into the actual blood of Jesus and the ability to see it replaces grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Christ dying on the cross once was sufficient to forgive all sins. You do not have to see His blood everytime the Lord's Supper is served. The power to forgive sins is through His shed blood, and it was shed when Jesus was crucified, one time, finished forever. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. This is imparted to us by grace though faith.

Scripture also tells us that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. So do you also think that if we stand on a vacant lot long enough we will become a Jewish temple?

Scripture is sometimes literal and sometimes not so literal. It must be used in context with common sense and in harmony with othe Scripture, not isolated verses to support an agenda. Don't be a Richard Nixon.

 

[Wittenberger]

What does "I am the Door" have to do with the Lord's Supper. It has to do with our access the God.

How can you possibly come to the conclusion that "this is My body" in 1 Cor 11:24 represents a physical mainifestation of the body of Jesus, magically transported through time, deminsion, and eternity every time a Lord's Supper is held around the world? This is a symbol to remember what He did for us. The power to forgive sins is not a magic act. It is faith in the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ, and His finished work on the cross. It seems like the importance of a transformation of grape juice into the actual blood of Jesus and the ability to see it replaces grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Christ dying on the cross once was sufficient to forgive all sins. You do not have to see His blood everytime the Lord's Supper is served. The power to forgive sins is through His shed blood, and it was shed when Jesus was crucified, one time, finished forever. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. This is imparted to us by grace though faith.

Scripture also tells us that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. So do you also think that if we stand on a vacant lot long enough we will become a Jewish temple?


Scripture is sometimes literal and sometimes not so literal. It must be used in context with common sense and in harmony with othe Scripture, not isolated verses to support an agenda. Don't be a Richard Nixon.

The reason you and I see differently on this issue is that your branch of Christianity believes that the Omnipresent, all powerful Christ is present in only one location at this moment of time, that is seated next to the right hand of the Father.

He is God! He may have two natures but they are not separated from each other so that His heavenly body is limited to one location in Heaven and his Spirit can be everywhere else. Christ, body and spirit, can be everywhere present at the same time. He says he "is" present in the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper and we take his Word for it. We don't try to explain "how" that happens like the RCC, but we believe He is really present anyway.

When Christ said "Lo I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" he didn't say "Well, half of me will be with you, the other half will be sitting quietly next to God the Father for more than two thousand years or more until the Second Coming!"

 

[Wittenberger]

I am going to present statements from the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod that shows that Lutherans do NOT believe that infant baptism is an automatic ticket into heaven:


Baptism and its purpose

Q: Can you please clarify the Lutheran view of Baptism and what is its purpose? Does the child become a Christian when baptized?

A: Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in
Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom 10:17). Jesus Himself
commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt 28:19-
20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s
Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a
person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal 3:26-27; Rom 6:1-4; Col 2:11-12; 1 Cor.
12:13).

Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and
“regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when
an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. We believe this because the Bible says
that infants can believe (Matt 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7;
Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet
it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim 3:15). The faith of the infant,
like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt 28:18-20), or it will die.

Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a
person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism
should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith
in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans
baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.

The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true
believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is
not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are
clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the
Word of God). Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly
commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it.

It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.

Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion.

Published by: LCMS Church Information Center
©The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
1333 S. Kirkwood Road, St. Louis, MO 63122-7295
888-843-5267 • infocenter@lcms.org • www.lcms.org/faqs
Return to

 

[Wittenberger]

Another LCMS statement on Baptism:

How does faith play a role in infant Baptism?

Q: How does faith play a role in infant Baptism? Is faith later taken care of when the child is
confirmed?

A: Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God's grace alone through faith
alone in Jesus Christ. Baptism, we believe, is one of the miraculous means of grace (together with God's
written and spoken Word) through which God creates the gift of faith in a person's heart. Although we
do not claim to understand how this happens or how it is possible, we believe (because of what the
Bible says about Baptism) that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant.
This faith cannot yet, of course, be expressed or articulated, yet it is real and present all the same (see,
e.g., 1 Pet 3:21; Acts 2:38-39; Titus 3:5-6; Matt. 18:6; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim.3:15; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:4; Col.
2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12:13).

Parents and sponsors of a baptized child bear the responsibility of teaching this child God's Word so that
the child's faith may remain alive and grow (Matt. 28:18-20). Confirmation is a time-honored church
tradition (not required by God's Word, but-we believe-useful nonetheless) in which the child baptized as
an infant is given the opportunity to confess for himself or herself the faith that he or she was unable to
confess as an infant. Faith is not "created" at confirmation, but rather confessed for all to hear, so that
the church can join and rejoice in this public confession, which has its roots in the faith which God
Himself created in Baptism.

Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion.

Published by: LCMS Church Information Center
©The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
1333 S. Kirkwood Road, St. Louis, MO 63122-7295
888-843-5267 • infocenter@lcms.org • www.lcms.org/faqs
Return to

 

[Wittenberger]

Another LCMS statement on Baptism

What about infants who die before being baptized?

Q: What about infants who die before being baptized?

A: In his book What's the Answer? (Concordia Publishing House, 1960), LCMS theologian Otto Sohn
addresses the question "What is the position of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod with respect to
the fate of stillborn children as well as to baptizing them?" His answer speaks to your question about
children who die before Baptism:

The position of our Lutheran Church on the first point in this question can best be expressed in the
words of Dr. Francis Pieper:

"There is some basis for the hope that God has a method, not revealed to us, by which He works faith in
the children of Christians dying without Baptism (Mark 10:13-16). For children of unbelievers we do not
venture to hold out such hope. We are here entering the field of the unsearchable judgments of God"
(Romans 11:33).

What is the basis of such hope? It is this, that God is not Himself bound by the means to the use of
which He has bound us. That is to say that while Christ has commanded us to baptize all nations, God
can save sinners without Baptism. He did so throughout the entire Old Testament. During the first 2,000
years we know of no special means of grace for little children. At the time of Abraham He instituted
circumcision, but He did not thereby provide for little girls. It is for God to determine under what
conditions He will receive children into His kingdom.

A most encouraging instance for the Holy Spirit's power to influence even unborn infants in a spiritual
way is found in Luke 1:15, 41, 44, where it is stated that the unborn John the Baptist leaped for joy
within his mother's womb when the unborn Jesus was brought into his presence by His mother Mary.
Behind all this is the all-encompassing Gospel pronouncement that "God was in Christ, reconciling the
world [including the little children] unto Himself" (2 Cor. 5:19).

As to the second point we might say: Whether individual Lutheran pastors have ever baptized stillborn
children immediately upon their arrival, we do not know, and to our knowledge such practice has never
been sanctioned by our church. Nor should it be sanctioned. The means of grace, including Baptism, are
for the living only (Heb. 9:27).

Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion.

Published by: LCMS Church Information Center
©The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
1333 S. Kirkwood Road, St. Louis, MO 63122-7295
888-843-5267 • infocenter@lcms.org • www.lcms.org/faqs
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