What Grace is the =sacrament granting though? the Blood of jesus ALONE freely justifies me, while the Holy Spirit ALONE is the One to sauctify me, so why the sacraments again?
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An Ongoing Study/Debate of the New Testament
- Thread starter Wittenberger
- Start date
What Grace is the =sacrament granting though? the Blood of jesus ALONE freely justifies me, while the Holy Spirit ALONE is the One to sauctify me, so why the sacraments again?
Wittenberger
New Member
Luke 1:11-17
English Standard Version (ESV)
11 And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, 15 for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, 17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”
A question for Baptists and evangelicals: How is it possible that God gave this infant the Holy Spirit BEFORE the infant had a chance to grow up and make an informed decision to believe and place his faith in God? Haven't we been told by our Baptist brothers and sisters that God "NEVER" gives salvation to infants because infants are incapable of making an informed decision???
This verse makes it very clear that God HAS given at least one infant the Holy Ghost.
This verse makes it very clear that God HAS given at least one infant salvation.
This verse makes it very clear that not ALL persons must make a mature, informed decision to believe and have faith to be saved. Therefore, this verse makes the Baptist belief that God does not give salvation to infants a FALSE teaching.
Many Baptists will respond by saying this: "John the Baptist was an exception."
Says who???? Is there anywhere in the Bible where God says that he made a one time exception for one special human being to be saved in a completely different manner than anyone else in all of human history? Is there somewhere in the Bible where it says that all men must be mature enough and old enough to make a free will decision to believe EXCEPT John the Baptist??
Lutherans and other orthodox Christians have never claimed that infant Baptism is the ONLY time or event during which God saves. We believe that it is but one situation in which God can save. John the Baptist was not saved during a baptism or by making a one-time adult informed, reasoned, free will decision. He was saved in the womb of his mother! God can save whenever He wants, and the passage of Scripture above is rock-solid proof of that.
Salvation is not limited to a person being old enough and mature enough to believe. GOD is the one who creates belief and faith, not you. The sinner does not muster up belief and faith by his own human effort! If he did, then his belief and faith would be a work. Sinners are not saved by works!
God chooses who he will save based on his divine will and election ,which occurred before the world existed. To those he has called, those he has predestined, at some point in time in their lives he "quickens" them and gives them the faith to belief and repent, and at the same time God saves them and gives them the Holy Spirit.
God gave salvation to John the Baptist as an infant. In multiple verses in the New Testament God says that baptism washes away and forgives sin. The apostle Peter tells us that "baptism saves us" and Jesus Christ, himself, states that "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved". Christ told us to go into all the world and baptize all nations. He didn't give any age restrictions in this command! There are multiple instances in the NT of entire "households being baptized". In a time devoid of birth control what are the real chances that none of these household had infants and young children??
There is SO much evidence in the NT that God can and does save infants! Just because there is no specific mention of a child being baptized in the NT doesn't mean it didn't happen! There is also no evidence in the NT of any child of Christian parents, growing up and making a "decision for Christ" and then undergoing baptism as a public profession of faith!
Baptists and evangelicals ignore all the above evidence because they fail to understand this very basic and fundamental principle about how God saves mankind: salvation is always God doing ALL the necessary actions required, and he performs these actions ALL BY HIMSELF! God doesn't need your help! He doesn't need your maturity, intelligence and ability to reason and make an informed decision to save you!
God saved John the Baptist, as an infant, without John's assistance. God saved John as an infant by gaving him faith, belief and repentance. How else could he have possessed the Holy Spirit? Does God give the Holy Spirit to unrighteous sinnners? Was John the Baptist a god who didn't need forgiveness of sins, faith and repentance? Was John the Baptist NOT a sinner? If John was a sinner, then in order to possess the Holy Spirit, God had to make John righteous in his eyes, and God only sees righteousness through his Son. How do we receive righteousnes from the Son? We receive righteousness from the Son of God by his grace through believing by faith and repenting. Are Baptists really telling us that God made a man righteous without faith and repentance??
The manner in which God saved John the Baptist is the exact same manner in which He saves every other human being throughout hsitory and today. By faith and repentance we change in the blink of an eye from being a hell-bound sinner to a heaven-bound child of God! But we didn't do it! GOD did it all!
The act of baptism does not save you. It is only one time/event in which God promises to save. He does the saving, however, not the water, not the words of the pastor, he does it! It is GOD who saves you when and where he chooses: in some cases as an adult who hears the Gospel and believes due to God "quickening" his heart, and in other cases as an infant who God saves during his baptism, as he has promised in Holy Scripture.
Infant baptism is so consistent with the rest of Scripture!
Salvation limited to persons who possess adult maturity and reason, is not!
English Standard Version (ESV)
11 And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, 15 for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, 17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”
A question for Baptists and evangelicals: How is it possible that God gave this infant the Holy Spirit BEFORE the infant had a chance to grow up and make an informed decision to believe and place his faith in God? Haven't we been told by our Baptist brothers and sisters that God "NEVER" gives salvation to infants because infants are incapable of making an informed decision???
This verse makes it very clear that God HAS given at least one infant the Holy Ghost.
This verse makes it very clear that God HAS given at least one infant salvation.
This verse makes it very clear that not ALL persons must make a mature, informed decision to believe and have faith to be saved. Therefore, this verse makes the Baptist belief that God does not give salvation to infants a FALSE teaching.
Many Baptists will respond by saying this: "John the Baptist was an exception."
Says who???? Is there anywhere in the Bible where God says that he made a one time exception for one special human being to be saved in a completely different manner than anyone else in all of human history? Is there somewhere in the Bible where it says that all men must be mature enough and old enough to make a free will decision to believe EXCEPT John the Baptist??
Lutherans and other orthodox Christians have never claimed that infant Baptism is the ONLY time or event during which God saves. We believe that it is but one situation in which God can save. John the Baptist was not saved during a baptism or by making a one-time adult informed, reasoned, free will decision. He was saved in the womb of his mother! God can save whenever He wants, and the passage of Scripture above is rock-solid proof of that.
Salvation is not limited to a person being old enough and mature enough to believe. GOD is the one who creates belief and faith, not you. The sinner does not muster up belief and faith by his own human effort! If he did, then his belief and faith would be a work. Sinners are not saved by works!
God chooses who he will save based on his divine will and election ,which occurred before the world existed. To those he has called, those he has predestined, at some point in time in their lives he "quickens" them and gives them the faith to belief and repent, and at the same time God saves them and gives them the Holy Spirit.
God gave salvation to John the Baptist as an infant. In multiple verses in the New Testament God says that baptism washes away and forgives sin. The apostle Peter tells us that "baptism saves us" and Jesus Christ, himself, states that "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved". Christ told us to go into all the world and baptize all nations. He didn't give any age restrictions in this command! There are multiple instances in the NT of entire "households being baptized". In a time devoid of birth control what are the real chances that none of these household had infants and young children??
There is SO much evidence in the NT that God can and does save infants! Just because there is no specific mention of a child being baptized in the NT doesn't mean it didn't happen! There is also no evidence in the NT of any child of Christian parents, growing up and making a "decision for Christ" and then undergoing baptism as a public profession of faith!
Baptists and evangelicals ignore all the above evidence because they fail to understand this very basic and fundamental principle about how God saves mankind: salvation is always God doing ALL the necessary actions required, and he performs these actions ALL BY HIMSELF! God doesn't need your help! He doesn't need your maturity, intelligence and ability to reason and make an informed decision to save you!
God saved John the Baptist, as an infant, without John's assistance. God saved John as an infant by gaving him faith, belief and repentance. How else could he have possessed the Holy Spirit? Does God give the Holy Spirit to unrighteous sinnners? Was John the Baptist a god who didn't need forgiveness of sins, faith and repentance? Was John the Baptist NOT a sinner? If John was a sinner, then in order to possess the Holy Spirit, God had to make John righteous in his eyes, and God only sees righteousness through his Son. How do we receive righteousnes from the Son? We receive righteousness from the Son of God by his grace through believing by faith and repenting. Are Baptists really telling us that God made a man righteous without faith and repentance??
The manner in which God saved John the Baptist is the exact same manner in which He saves every other human being throughout hsitory and today. By faith and repentance we change in the blink of an eye from being a hell-bound sinner to a heaven-bound child of God! But we didn't do it! GOD did it all!
The act of baptism does not save you. It is only one time/event in which God promises to save. He does the saving, however, not the water, not the words of the pastor, he does it! It is GOD who saves you when and where he chooses: in some cases as an adult who hears the Gospel and believes due to God "quickening" his heart, and in other cases as an infant who God saves during his baptism, as he has promised in Holy Scripture.
Infant baptism is so consistent with the rest of Scripture!
Salvation limited to persons who possess adult maturity and reason, is not!
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Wittenberger
New Member
Grace = God's unmerited favor
The free gift of eternal life is an example of God's grace.
Forgiveness of sins committed after we are saved is an example of God's grace.
Good health is an example of God's grace.
The blessings of children and family is an example of God's grace.
Grace does not just mean salvation, my friend.
God many times throughout the Bible uses an external object as an instrument to demonstrate his spiritual power and might to others who witness the act:
The Great Flood
the sacrifice of a lamb
turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt
the plagues of Egypt
parting the Red Sea
the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night
the ark of the covenant
manna from heaven
the serpent on the pole
marching around the walls of Jericho, blowing horns to cause the walls to fall
David smiting Goliath and defeating the Philistines
Naaman cleansed by dipping into the Jordan
Daniel in the Lion's den
the writing on the wall to Nebuchadnezer (sp.?)
an angel appearing to Mary
the star of Bethlehem
Jesus walking on water
Jesus turning water into wine
Jesus healing the sick by touching the hem of his garment or with spittle
wine and bread of the Last Supper
the water of baptism to picture the washing away of our sins by his blood
God could have accomplished all the actions above just by speaking the words, but He chose not to. He chose to act through visible means!
God has many, many times used external means/instruments to demonstrate his power, love, and unmerited favor. God has many times given GRACE through means to his believers. Baptism is just one of them.
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Wittenberger
New Member
So let's review some of the passages of Scripture that we have read so far and look for evidence of God giving "grace" to human beings. Let's start with some definitions first.
grace = unmerited favor/blessings from God
means = a visible, physical instrument through which God gives his unmerited favor/blessings.
The Baptism of John the Baptist
grace given: forgiveness of sins
means of grace: water baptism
The Woman with a bloody discharge
grace given: physical healing
means of grace: touching the hem of Christ's garment
Child with Unclean Spirit
grace given: exorcism of the spirit
means of grace: spoken Word of Christ
Zechariah and Elizabeth
grace given: promise of the birth of a son
means of grace: an angel
These passages demonstrate how God often uses visible or audible "means" to grant his favor and blessings---grace!
Christ could have accomplished all of these acts of grace simply by silently commanding them to happen. But he didn't. He chose to use external means. Why? To demonstrate to others witnessing the act, of his power and might so that they too might believe??
grace = unmerited favor/blessings from God
means = a visible, physical instrument through which God gives his unmerited favor/blessings.
The Baptism of John the Baptist
grace given: forgiveness of sins
means of grace: water baptism
The Woman with a bloody discharge
grace given: physical healing
means of grace: touching the hem of Christ's garment
Child with Unclean Spirit
grace given: exorcism of the spirit
means of grace: spoken Word of Christ
Zechariah and Elizabeth
grace given: promise of the birth of a son
means of grace: an angel
These passages demonstrate how God often uses visible or audible "means" to grant his favor and blessings---grace!
Christ could have accomplished all of these acts of grace simply by silently commanding them to happen. But he didn't. He chose to use external means. Why? To demonstrate to others witnessing the act, of his power and might so that they too might believe??
Wittenberger
New Member
Next passage of Scripture:
Luke 1:26-33
English Standard Version (ESV)
Birth of Jesus Foretold
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed[a] to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
Footnotes:a.Luke 1:27 That is, legally pledged to be married
b.Luke 1:28 Some manuscripts add Blessed are you among women!
In this passage the angel tells Mary that she has been selected from all the women on earth to be the Mother of Christ. Do we see God's grace in this passage?
Grace (unmerited favor/blessings of God): news of her selection as the Mother of Christ
Means of Grace (instrument of givng the grace): an angel
Luke 1:26-33
English Standard Version (ESV)
Birth of Jesus Foretold
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed[a] to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
Footnotes:a.Luke 1:27 That is, legally pledged to be married
b.Luke 1:28 Some manuscripts add Blessed are you among women!
In this passage the angel tells Mary that she has been selected from all the women on earth to be the Mother of Christ. Do we see God's grace in this passage?
Grace (unmerited favor/blessings of God): news of her selection as the Mother of Christ
Means of Grace (instrument of givng the grace): an angel
Wittenberger
New Member
Next passage:
Luke 1:76-77
English Standard Version (ESV)
76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High;
for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways,
77 to give knowledge of salvation to his people
in the forgiveness of their sins,
In this passage Zechariah is speaking to his baby son, John (the Baptist), tellling him that he will give the people the knowledge of salvation in his baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
Luke 1:76-77
English Standard Version (ESV)
76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High;
for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways,
77 to give knowledge of salvation to his people
in the forgiveness of their sins,
In this passage Zechariah is speaking to his baby son, John (the Baptist), tellling him that he will give the people the knowledge of salvation in his baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
Wittenberger
New Member
Next passage:
Luke 2:8-14
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Shepherds and the Angels
8 And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. 10 And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
14 “Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!”[a]
Footnotes:a.Luke 2:14 Some manuscripts peace, good will among men
This is the Christmas story of the announcement of the birth of our Savior to the shepherds.
Grace (unmerited favor from God) given: the privilege of being witnesses to the birth of Christ.
Means (instrument used) of giving grace: angels
Luke 2:8-14
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Shepherds and the Angels
8 And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. 10 And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
14 “Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!”[a]
Footnotes:a.Luke 2:14 Some manuscripts peace, good will among men
This is the Christmas story of the announcement of the birth of our Savior to the shepherds.
Grace (unmerited favor from God) given: the privilege of being witnesses to the birth of Christ.
Means (instrument used) of giving grace: angels
Wittenberger
New Member
Next passage:
Luke 3:1-3
English Standard Version (ESV)
John the Baptist Prepares the Way
3 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, 2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Once again we see the same language used in reference to the purpose of John's baptism here in Luke's Gospel that we saw in Matthew's and in Mark's. Are we to really believe that God has allowed the translators of all the Bibles in the English language to again intentionally misinterpret this event in Holy Scripture just for the sake of reinforcing "paedobaptist" theology???
Luke 3:1-3
English Standard Version (ESV)
John the Baptist Prepares the Way
3 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, 2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Once again we see the same language used in reference to the purpose of John's baptism here in Luke's Gospel that we saw in Matthew's and in Mark's. Are we to really believe that God has allowed the translators of all the Bibles in the English language to again intentionally misinterpret this event in Holy Scripture just for the sake of reinforcing "paedobaptist" theology???
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Wittenberger
New Member
Next passage:
Luke 3:15-16
English Standard Version (ESV)
15 As the people were in expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Christ, 16 John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
What does this verse mean?
Growing up Baptist, I was taught that this verse meant that John baptized human bodies with water but that Christ would baptize human souls with the Holy Spirit and with fire when the sinner prays to "accept" Christ as his personal Lord and Savior in an adult "born again" experience.
But why change the meaning of the word "baptize"? Why in the first part of the verse interpret it as "immersion into water" and in the last part of the verse interpret it as "immersion into the Holy Spirit"??
Why not just read it this way: I immerse you into water...but he that is mightier than I...will immerse you into water with the Holy Spirit and with fire?
I'm not sure what the Church Fathers or the Lutheran Church say on this passage but this last interpretation seems more plausible to me. Sure, "immerse you into the Holy Spirit" sounds reasonable but "immerse you into fire???"
And since when are we "immersed" into the Holy Spirit? I thought that the Holy Spirit is usually spoken of as being "poured out onto" a believer. Are there any other verses that do NOT mention baptism where we are told that we are immersed into the Holy Spirit??
Luke 3:15-16
English Standard Version (ESV)
15 As the people were in expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Christ, 16 John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
What does this verse mean?
Growing up Baptist, I was taught that this verse meant that John baptized human bodies with water but that Christ would baptize human souls with the Holy Spirit and with fire when the sinner prays to "accept" Christ as his personal Lord and Savior in an adult "born again" experience.
But why change the meaning of the word "baptize"? Why in the first part of the verse interpret it as "immersion into water" and in the last part of the verse interpret it as "immersion into the Holy Spirit"??
Why not just read it this way: I immerse you into water...but he that is mightier than I...will immerse you into water with the Holy Spirit and with fire?
I'm not sure what the Church Fathers or the Lutheran Church say on this passage but this last interpretation seems more plausible to me. Sure, "immerse you into the Holy Spirit" sounds reasonable but "immerse you into fire???"
And since when are we "immersed" into the Holy Spirit? I thought that the Holy Spirit is usually spoken of as being "poured out onto" a believer. Are there any other verses that do NOT mention baptism where we are told that we are immersed into the Holy Spirit??
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Wittenberger
New Member
Below is the Lutheran definition of the "Means of Grace" copied from the Christian Cyclopedia, Concordia Publishing House, The Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.
Grace, Means of.
I. Doctrine in gen.
1. Definition. The term “means of grace” denotes the divinely instituted means by which God offers, bestows, and seals to men forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation. Properly speaking, there is but 1 means of grace: the Gospel of Christ (Ro 1:16–17); but since in the Sacraments (see Sacrament and the Sacraments) the Gospel appears as the verbum visibile (visible Word; Ap XIII 5; Augustine* of Hippo, Tract 80 on Jn 15:3; see also par. 6 below) in distinction from the verbum audibile (audible Word), it is rightly said that the means of grace are the Gospel and the Sacraments. The Law, though also a divine Word and used by the Holy Spirit in a preparatory way to work contrition,* without which there can be no saving faith (see Faith, 2), is not, properly speaking, a means of grace (see Law and Gospel). It is the very opposite of a means of grace, namely a “ministration of death,” 2 Co 3:7. Prayer is not a means of grace, but faith in action.
2. Basis of the means of grace. There are means of grace because there is, 1st, Christ's objective justification (see Justification, 5) or reconciliation* (2 Co 5:19–21) and, 2d, Christ's institution. In other words, there is forgiveness for all through Christ's active and passive obedience. Christ wants this forgiveness to be offered and conveyed to all men through the Gospel and the Sacraments (Mt 28:19–20; Mk 16:15; AC V, VIII).
3. Twofold power of the means of grace. The means of grace have an offering or conferring power, by which God offers to all men forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation (Mt 18:20; 26:28; Acts 2:38; 20:24; FC SD II 57), and an operative or effective power, by which the Holy Spirit works, strengthens, and preserves saving faith (Ro 1:16; 10:17; 1 Co 4:15; 2 Co 2:14–17; 3:5–6; 1 Th 2:13; 1 Ptr 1:23; FC SD II 56).
4. Importance of the means of grace. The doctrine of the means of grace, part of the doctrine of the Word, is a fundamental doctrine (see Fundamental Doctrines). God bestows His saving grace “only through the Word and with the external and preceding Word” (nisi per verbum et cum verbo externo et praecedente, SA-III VIII 3; Jn 8:31–32; Ro 10:14–17). Therefore the Bible inculcates faithful adherence to the Gospel and the Sacraments administered according to Christ's institution (Mt 28:19–20; Jn 8:31–32; Acts 17:11; Tts 1:9). Because of the strong emphasis on the Word in the Luth. Confessions, Holy Scripture has rightly been called the Formal* Principle of the Reformation.
5. Means of grace and the Luth. Ch. The doctrine of the means of grace is a distinctive feature of Luth. theol., which owes to this cen. teaching its soundness, strong appeal, freedom from sectarian tendencies and morbid fanaticism, coherence, practicality, and adaptation to men of every race and degree of culture. Acc. to Luth. doctrine the means of grace are unchanging, sufficient, and efficacious. The efficacy of the means of grace does not depend on the faith, ordination, gifts, or intention of the administrator. Hearers of the Word, communicants, and subjects of Baptism derive no benefit from the means of grace unless they have faith (the receiving means; the hand reached out to accept blessings offered in the conferring means); but it does not follow that faith makes the means of grace effective. The Word is effective per se; the Sacraments are Sacraments by virtue of Christ's institution. Faith does not belong to the essence of the means of grace; it is itself a blessed work through the means of grace by the power of the Holy Ghost (Ro 10:14–17; Eph 1:19–20).
The Luth. Confessions gen. speak of the Word and the Sacraments as the means of grace (Ap VII–VIII 36; SA-III VIII 10; FC SD II 48), specifically denoting the Gospel as the means of grace (AC V).
The Luth. Confessions take a decisive stand against “enthusiasts,” who teach that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of men without the Word and Sacraments (SA-III VIII 3–13; LC II 34–62; FC Ep II 13). See also Enthusiasm.
6. Means of grace have the same effect. The Sacraments have the same effect as the spoken or written Word because they are nothing else than the visible Word (see par. 1 above), that is, the Gospel applied in sacred action in connection with the visible signs. For this reason the Sacraments offer, convey, and seal to the recipients forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation just as the Gospel does when it is spoken, contemplated, or read. It is therefore not in agreement with Scripture to ascribe to Baptism (see III below) regeneration exclusively and to the Lord's Supper (see IV below), as a special function, the implanting of the germ of the resurrection body. Also the Gospel regenerates when it is read, preached, or contemplated in the heart (1 Ptr 1:23).
7. Calvinism* and the means of grace. Calvinism rejects the means of grace as unnecessary; it holds that the Holy Spirit requires no escort or vehicle by which to enter human hearts. The Ref. doctrine of predestination* excludes the idea of means which impart the Spirit and His gifts to men, the Holy Spirit working effectively only on the elect. Acc. to Ref. teaching, the office of the Word is to point out the way of life without imparting that of which it conveys the idea. Ref. theol. regards Word and Sacraments as necessary because of divine institution. They are symbols of what the Holy Spirit does within as He works immediately (i. e. without means) and irresistibly. “Enthusiast” doctrine of the Anabaptists* and of the many sects since their day regarding the “inner light,” gen. identified with the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” and the “2d conversion,” has its root in this specifically Ref. doctrine of the immediate working of the Holy Spirit. See also Enthusiasm.
8. RCm and the means of grace. RCm emphasizes 7 sacraments as means of grace. The Council of Trent* (Sess. VII, Canons on the sacraments in gen., 6 and 8) taught that these sacraments confer grace ex opere operato (see Opus operatum) on those who do not put an obstacle in the way. RC theologians differ on questions pertaining to sacramental grace, e.g., some regard it as identical with sanctifying grace, others hold that it is a special type of sanctifying grace. Grace bestowed by the sacraments is often described in RCm as a spiritual quality infused by God into the soul (see also Gratia infusa). Baptism, acc. to RCm, wipes out original sin* in the baptized. See also Sacraments, Roman Catholic.
9. Necessity of the means of grace. The means of grace are necessary because of Christ's command and because they offer God's grace. God has not bound Himself to the means of grace (Lk 1:15, 41), but He has bound His ch. to them. Christians dare not regard as unnecessary the Sacraments and the preaching of the Word (Mt 28:19–20; Lk 22:19; 1 Co 11:23–28), as some “enthusiasts” do. But Luth. theol. does not assert an absolute necessity of the Sacraments, since faith and regeneration can be worked by the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men through the Word without the Sacraments. Mere lack of the Sacraments does not condemn, but contempt for them does (Lk 7:29–30).
To see this excerpt from the Christian Cyclopedia with links and definitions of abbreviated terms, click here:
http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=g&word=GRACE.MEANSOF
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Wittenberger
New Member
Below is a comment received on my blog from a Lutheran pastor regarding the Means of Grace. I think it is very helpful in understanding this term.
The Church is "sacramental" (μυστήριον)- it is the repository of the grace of Christ
I/you are "sacramental" (μυστήριον)- we are repositories of the grace of Christ
The Lutheran Confessions do not "number" the "sacraments", because God does not number His Means of Grace anywhere in Scripture
Baptism, according to the Catechism and Luther, actually creates the "faith" that receives the benefits of Baptism. It should be said that St. Peter (I Peter 3:21) states explicitly that Baptism saves, not ex opera operato, as the RCC teaches, but through its inherent creative power, which can both create faith and then save as well
Christ's Baptism was the motherlode - it was his "anointing as the Messiah" - yes; but also, it was His Baptism into His death, which is also our Baptism into death, that we might rise with him
Faith appropriates the benefits of Baptism, it is not a causative agent, but only that which receives what the Lord offers. Faith is aware of the grace of God, and seeks it constantly, but it is only receptive, never the cause
The hem of Christ's garment was the "sacrament" (μυστήριον) (the means) that healed the woman with the issue of blood. Her faith, which knew Christ could heal her, then received the healing
The Greek term μυστήριον (mystery) was translated into sacramentum by the RCC, which was far more about a Roman soldier's allegiance to the Empire of Rome than about anything "theological." "Sacrament" is an unfortunate choice of words . . . I most often use μυστήριον from the pulpit because it far more readily speaks to, and conveys, the actuality of God's grace and its action within our lives
His "mystery"
Just my observations . . . if you wish, feel free to use what I have said above.
In Christ,
Pastor Baxter
The Church is "sacramental" (μυστήριον)- it is the repository of the grace of Christ
I/you are "sacramental" (μυστήριον)- we are repositories of the grace of Christ
The Lutheran Confessions do not "number" the "sacraments", because God does not number His Means of Grace anywhere in Scripture
Baptism, according to the Catechism and Luther, actually creates the "faith" that receives the benefits of Baptism. It should be said that St. Peter (I Peter 3:21) states explicitly that Baptism saves, not ex opera operato, as the RCC teaches, but through its inherent creative power, which can both create faith and then save as well
Christ's Baptism was the motherlode - it was his "anointing as the Messiah" - yes; but also, it was His Baptism into His death, which is also our Baptism into death, that we might rise with him
Faith appropriates the benefits of Baptism, it is not a causative agent, but only that which receives what the Lord offers. Faith is aware of the grace of God, and seeks it constantly, but it is only receptive, never the cause
The hem of Christ's garment was the "sacrament" (μυστήριον) (the means) that healed the woman with the issue of blood. Her faith, which knew Christ could heal her, then received the healing
The Greek term μυστήριον (mystery) was translated into sacramentum by the RCC, which was far more about a Roman soldier's allegiance to the Empire of Rome than about anything "theological." "Sacrament" is an unfortunate choice of words . . . I most often use μυστήριον from the pulpit because it far more readily speaks to, and conveys, the actuality of God's grace and its action within our lives
His "mystery"
Just my observations . . . if you wish, feel free to use what I have said above.
In Christ,
Pastor Baxter
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Do you know why no one is responding to your posts? Because it is obvious you are not open or sincere in seeking the truth but as your posts clearly reveal you really think you can convert Baptists to these rediculous and irrational and clearly unbiblical interpretations.
The Greek term "musterion" and its Latin equivilent are NEVER ONCE USED by Biblical writers to describe or characterize baptism or the Lord's Supper. This is entirely a Roman Catholic manipulation/invention and false doctrine perpetuated by Lutheran's and other sacramentalists.
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Wittenberger
New Member
I appreciate your comment Brother Biblicist.
The primary purpose that I am on the Baptist Boards is to sharpen by Lutheran Christian doctrinal beliefs against some of the most biblically versed Christians of all time...Baptists and evangelicals. If my Lutheran beliefs hold up against these Christians, it reaffirms to me that the Lutheran Church does hold the true Gospel and doctrine of our 2,000 year old apostolic Christian Church and faith.
So I am not here on the BB for the primary purpose of converting anyone, Baptist, evangelical, Roman Catholic or Reformed. If that happens to be a by-product of our conversation, yes, that would be great, but I am primarily here for ME and my Scriptural/doctrinal edification. You might just persuade me to convert to your side! I am not married to Lutheranism, but to the True Gospel of Christ.
You seem to feel that unless I capitulate to your position immediately that I am being deceptive and not being open-minded. You are wrong, brother. What may seem so "obviously" true to you is not necessarily so for others of us. Some of your "side" can blame this on the belief that we orthodox are not really Christians, that we do not have the "Holy Spirit" to guide us, but I would encourage you to have patience and wait until the end of our discussion to make this judgment.
I want you to try and shoot down my beliefs with your "best shots." I AM open-minded. I am open to changing my position. I learn new things about Scripture all the time.
For instance this morning in Sunday School I learned something very important from my pastor. I have been critical of Baptists and evangelicals for not believing the simple, literal reading of the Bible. I now realize that I HAVE BEEN WRONG!
The Bible is not simple and easy to understand. Not all of the Bible is meant to be understood literally.
The Bible was written over several thousand years, with numerous writers, of different ages, different cultures, and multiple languages. Some of those languages are now dead. Of the languages still in use today, the form of those languages used 2,000 years ago no longer exists. Metaphors that seem to mean one thing to people of our time and culture could mean something drastically different in another time, culture, people and language.
The Bible was not written in modern, 21st century English with metaphors and allegories that make sense to us today.
So how can we know what the true interpretation of the Bible really is?
I believe that we can know what the true interpretation of the Bible is by the oral tradition passed down through the generations and centuries after Christ. The apostle Paul told us to hold on to the traditions that he taught.
The Church holds these oral traditions, mentioned by Paul, in the form of the writings and testimonies of the early Christians, the Church Fathers.
I urge you and other Baptists/evangelicals to debate and discuss your own beliefs against mine. It will sharpen your skills for the next catholic/orthodox "heretic" who crosses your path!
Regardless, I have started on this journey of the New Testament, and I plan to continue to pursue it. If my argument is weak I hope you will point it out to me, so that I either study and sharpen my position, or abandon it in favor of yours. Don't demand immediate capitulation, however. I will be a tough nut to crack, but I truly am being open-minded.
Wittenberger
New Member
Here is another explanation of the Means of Grace. This is from the Doctrinal Statement of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. For more detail go to: http://www.lcms.org
Of the Means of Grace
21. Although God is present and operates everywhere throughout all creation and the whole
earth is therefore full of the temporal bounties and blessings of God, Col. 1:17; Acts 17:28;
14:17, still we hold with Scripture that God offers and communicates to men the spiritual
blessings purchased by Christ, namely, the forgiveness of sins and the treasures and gifts
connected therewith, only through the external means of grace ordained by Him. These
means of grace are the Word of the Gospel, in every form in which it is brought to man, and
the Sacraments of Holy Baptism and of the Lord's Supper. The Word of the gospel promises
and applies the grace of God, works faith and thus regenerates man, and gives the Holy Ghost,
Acts 20:24; Rom. 10:17; 1 Pet. 1:23; Gal. 3:2. Baptism, too, is applied for the remission of sins
and is therefore a washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:38; 22:16;
Titus 3:5. Likewise the object of the Lord's Supper, that is, of the ministration of the body and
blood of Christ, is none other than the communication and sealing of the forgiveness of sins,
as the words declare: "Given for you," and: "Shed for you for the remission of sins," Luke
22:19, 20; Matt. 26:28, and "This cup is the New Testament in My blood," 1 Cor. 11:23; Jer.
31:31‐34 ("New Covenant").
22. Since it is only through the external means ordained by Him that God has promised to
communicate the grace and salvation purchased by Christ, the Christian Church must not
remain at home with the means of grace entrusted to it, but go into the whole world with the
preaching of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments, Matt. 28:19, 20; Mark
16:15, 16. For the same reason also the churches at home should never forget that there is no
other way of winning souls for the Church and keeping them with it than the faithful and
diligent use of the divinely ordained means of grace. Whatever activities do not either directly
apply the Word of God or subserve such application we condemn as "new methods,"
unchurchly activities, which do not build, but harm the Church.
23. We reject as a dangerous error the doctrine, which disrupted the Church of the
Reformation, that the grace and the Spirit of God are communicated not through the external
means ordained by Him, but by an immediate operation of grace. This erroneous doctrine
Page 7 of 14
bases the forgiveness of sins, or justification, upon a fictitious "infused grace," that is, upon a
quality of man, and thus again establishes the work‐doctrine of the papists.
Of the Means of Grace
21. Although God is present and operates everywhere throughout all creation and the whole
earth is therefore full of the temporal bounties and blessings of God, Col. 1:17; Acts 17:28;
14:17, still we hold with Scripture that God offers and communicates to men the spiritual
blessings purchased by Christ, namely, the forgiveness of sins and the treasures and gifts
connected therewith, only through the external means of grace ordained by Him. These
means of grace are the Word of the Gospel, in every form in which it is brought to man, and
the Sacraments of Holy Baptism and of the Lord's Supper. The Word of the gospel promises
and applies the grace of God, works faith and thus regenerates man, and gives the Holy Ghost,
Acts 20:24; Rom. 10:17; 1 Pet. 1:23; Gal. 3:2. Baptism, too, is applied for the remission of sins
and is therefore a washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:38; 22:16;
Titus 3:5. Likewise the object of the Lord's Supper, that is, of the ministration of the body and
blood of Christ, is none other than the communication and sealing of the forgiveness of sins,
as the words declare: "Given for you," and: "Shed for you for the remission of sins," Luke
22:19, 20; Matt. 26:28, and "This cup is the New Testament in My blood," 1 Cor. 11:23; Jer.
31:31‐34 ("New Covenant").
22. Since it is only through the external means ordained by Him that God has promised to
communicate the grace and salvation purchased by Christ, the Christian Church must not
remain at home with the means of grace entrusted to it, but go into the whole world with the
preaching of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments, Matt. 28:19, 20; Mark
16:15, 16. For the same reason also the churches at home should never forget that there is no
other way of winning souls for the Church and keeping them with it than the faithful and
diligent use of the divinely ordained means of grace. Whatever activities do not either directly
apply the Word of God or subserve such application we condemn as "new methods,"
unchurchly activities, which do not build, but harm the Church.
23. We reject as a dangerous error the doctrine, which disrupted the Church of the
Reformation, that the grace and the Spirit of God are communicated not through the external
means ordained by Him, but by an immediate operation of grace. This erroneous doctrine
Page 7 of 14
bases the forgiveness of sins, or justification, upon a fictitious "infused grace," that is, upon a
quality of man, and thus again establishes the work‐doctrine of the papists.
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If you are on here simply for YOU then there is no need for you to be on here at all. Because a man convinced AGAINST HIS WILL is of the same opinion still. You have already proven beyond doubt that no amount of evidence against your ideas will change your mind so this is an exercise of futility for both you and anyone who attempts to demonstrate your errors. No matter what you say , it is quite obvious you do not have an open mind except in verbage only.
Wittenberger
New Member
Next passage:
Luke 3:21-22
English Standard Version (ESV)
21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son;[a] with you I am well pleased.”
Footnotes:a.Luke 3:22 Or my Son, my (or the) Beloved
b.Luke 3:22 Some manuscripts beloved Son; today I have begotten you
Is there a visible sign or means in this passage by which God demonstrates a spiritual reality? Yes! The Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in a bodily form, like a dove and an audible voice declares: "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."
This is another example of God using visible and audible means to demonstrate his Almighty Power and Glory.
Luke 3:21-22
English Standard Version (ESV)
21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son;[a] with you I am well pleased.”
Footnotes:a.Luke 3:22 Or my Son, my (or the) Beloved
b.Luke 3:22 Some manuscripts beloved Son; today I have begotten you
Is there a visible sign or means in this passage by which God demonstrates a spiritual reality? Yes! The Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in a bodily form, like a dove and an audible voice declares: "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."
This is another example of God using visible and audible means to demonstrate his Almighty Power and Glory.
Wittenberger
New Member
Well, brother, I hope that there will be other Baptists/evangelicals on this site who will have a little more patience. Do all your potential converts capitulate so quickly?
Regardless, I intend to pursue an open-minded study of the New Testament with you or without you, brother. There have been almost 1,000 views of this thread since I started it not too long ago. Hopefully a few people are finding this topic interesting and useful. I am praying to the Lord that that is the case.
You keep proving my point that you are not open minded but merely here to say to your Lutheran friends, "I challenged every Baptist on the forum and none could overthrow my Lutheran beliefs and that is why I remain Lutheran."
You prove my point because it is self-evident as you simply post what YOU THINK a passage means and says when no one is responding but then just keep posting YOUR THOUGHTS when no one responds for obvious reasons. So your being completley hypocritical and it is obvious.
Tearing up your belief system is simple and that has already been done more than once and your only response was SILENCE and forward to another argument in spite of being completely SILENCED. So this is a big EGO trip for you and that is very very obvious or else you would not keep posting WHEN N
NE RESPONDS. So hurry up and get your BOASTING RIGHTS established and go on!Wittenberger
New Member
You keep proving my point that you are not open minded but merely here to say to your Lutheran friends, "I challenged every Baptist on the forum and none could overthrow my Lutheran beliefs and that is why I remain Lutheran."
You prove my point because it is self-evident as you simply post what YOU THINK a passage means and says when no one is responding but then just keep posting YOUR THOUGHTS when no one responds for obvious reasons. So your being completley hypocritical and it is obvious.
Tearing up your belief system is simple and that has already been done more than once and your only response was SILENCE and forward to another argument in spite of being completely SILENCED. So this is a big EGO trip for you and that is very very obvious or else you would not keep posting WHEN N
Unless the BB bans me (for breaking the rule of no one responding to my posts??) I intend to go through the ENTIRE New Testament, so you are stuck with me on the BB for a while longer.
I have a suggestion, brother. There are multiple forums and multiple threads on each forum. If you really believe about me what you say, why not just ignore me??
Well, it is clear that Wittenberger is on here to proselyte and it is also clear that he has no intentions of being open or objective. Also, it is clear that it will be pure frustration to respond to his errors hoping he can be turned from them as the past clearly demonstrates that to be a false hope.
It is clear that he will continue to post false doctrine after false doctrine and therefore it needs to be exposed and condemned for what it is - error.
He knows that neither the Greek or Latin Scriptures ever use "musterion" (translated "sacraments") for baptism or the Lord's Supper. So this presumptive "sacramental" application to baptism is purely pagan and not Biblical in any sense.
I challenge him to produce ONE SCRIPTURE either in the Greek, English or Latin where "musterion" or "sacrament" is ever once used to describe or characterize either baptism or the Lord's Supper.
The whole concept of "sacrament" is condemned by the scriptures in Romans 4:9-11 (which this Lutheran runs from).
It is clear that he will continue to post false doctrine after false doctrine and therefore it needs to be exposed and condemned for what it is - error.
He knows that neither the Greek or Latin Scriptures ever use "musterion" (translated "sacraments") for baptism or the Lord's Supper. So this presumptive "sacramental" application to baptism is purely pagan and not Biblical in any sense.
I challenge him to produce ONE SCRIPTURE either in the Greek, English or Latin where "musterion" or "sacrament" is ever once used to describe or characterize either baptism or the Lord's Supper.
The whole concept of "sacrament" is condemned by the scriptures in Romans 4:9-11 (which this Lutheran runs from).