Friend of Israel?

[Amy.G]

Does this mean that what Israel today wants God wants? And we Americans had better kowtow to their every whim or be cursed? Is this the way you're presenting this passage?

No.


.................

 

[kyredneck]

No.


.................

Then why did you even quote the passage? The most misapplied passage in all of dispensationlism.

 

[OldRegular]

I read this article and here is what I think/believe:

#1...I am (without apology) a "dispensationalist" and I DO NOT believe that fundamentalist Christians (painting with a broad brush here) believe in 'stacking as many Jews as possible into Israel so they can be "slaughtered" so "Jesus will come". What a reprehensible and hideous idea! For the record..Jesus will come when He is ready and when the Father tells Him to (I think that is "theologically" correct:laugh...but....some REALLY bad things are going to happen before that does and a LOT of lost and some saved people will die in the process. That is not pleasant or convenient...but it is nonetheless true.

Lost and saved people die every day!

#2...The Jews are a "spiritually blinded" people RIGHT NOW (Romans 11:25 and following...)(get your Bible out and read the verses) so to take the comments of a lost, spiritually blind jew (and a democrat one at that) and reject sound Biblical teaching on that basis is NOT SMART folks.

They are no more blinded now than any lost people. A nephew of mine married a girl whose parents were Jewish. She made her profession of faith at a family reunion to which my nephew brought her. Her witness as a Christian was wonderful, even as she fought the melanoma that claimed her life two years ago. So you see not all Jews are blinded. The elect certainly are not.

#3...Matthew 24:21-22 does in fact (Jesus was speaking to a jewish audience in Matthew 24...check the context!) say that "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake (ISRAEL) those days shall be shortened." That simply confirms that in that time frame there will be SLAUGHTER but that it will encompass ALL FLESH...not just Israel....BUT that it would be shortened BY GOD for the sake of His Chosen one's(the "elect")...the nation of Israel (since the New Testament Church is gone...via the rapture,1 Thessalonians 13-18!). It is a Biblical event....not a "Christian" event nor a "Jewish" event. It is actually a God-ordained event among many others during that time.(The time of Jacob's trouble)

All Scripture was written for the redeemed of God. [Romans 15:4]
The Church will be on earth until Jesus Christ returns to resurrect all the dead and sit on the Great White Throne in Judgment!

In closing...we Christians need to QUIT running scared everytime a heretic, atheist, unbelieving Jew, apostate "Christian", heathen, self-serving politician, mainstream media nerd or any other kind of Bible-rejecting wicked person throws mud on sound Bible teaching. We need to stick by God and His Word regardless of the cost. The world is rarely going to respect Biblical truth OR people who live by it in this generation. We are fast coming to the day in this country (America) where it will truly cost us something to live by our faith. We can never be "politically-correct" and be true to God.

:BangHead:Bro.Greg:type:

I believe folks like LeHaye needs to quit writing "Left Behind"for children!

 

[Amy.G]

Then why did you even quote the passage? The most misapplied passage in all of dispensationlism.

I don't think God wrote that verse for dispensationalists! :laugh:

I think He wrote what He meant and meant what He wrote, regardless of one's eschatology.

Again, I ask, when did God rescind that verse?

 

[OldRegular]

^^^^^^^^^^To the above post ^^^^^^^^^^

:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:


To add, when did God rescind this:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

It was rescinded when the descendants of Abraham crucified the Incarnate God, Jesus Christ.

Remember who Abraham's true seed are.

Galatians 3:29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Suppose a born again believer curses a Jew. Will God curse the Christian?

 

[kyredneck]

I don't think God wrote that verse for dispensationalists! :laugh:

I think He wrote what He meant and meant what He wrote, regardless of one's eschatology.

Again, I ask, when did God rescind that verse?

Again I ask, does this mean that what Israel wants God wants?

Likud is frothing at the bit for America to invade Iran for Israel. [and you're laughing, perhaps the seriousness of all this escapes you]

Is America DOOMED/DAMNED if we don't invade Iran for Israel?

 

[Amy.G]

It was rescinded when the descendants of Abraham crucified the Incarnate God, Jesus Christ.

Remember who Abraham's true seed are.

Galatians 3:29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

That doesn't mean that God has thrown Israel aside.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Suppose a born again believer curses a Jew. Will God curse the Christian?

Would a born again Christian curse the Nation that brought forth our Savior? Can't imagine that.

 

[Amy.G]

Again I ask, does this mean that what Israel wants God wants?

Likud is frothing at the bit for America to invade Iran for Israel. [and you're laughing, perhaps the seriousness of all this escapes you]

Is America DOOMED/DAMNED if we don't invade Iran for Israel?

Who's talking about America fighting wars "for" Israel?

We can be supportive of them without fighting for them.

When did God rescind His word? I cannot find it in the Bible. Maybe you could enlighten me?

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Well...Uhhh...

Actually, that would be our Amil brethren. Preterists believe everything has already taken place (in AD 70).

Well...OK...But I have seen and read stuff about full-preterists and partial-preterists with reference to both amill and postmill in reference to BOTH....guess it doesn't matter much to me since I think both of them are wrong no matter what the finer points would be...in my personal conviction and opinion. On this subject as with others, I comment up to the limit of either my understanding...or my level of patience...whichever comes first...and it varies sometimes but rarely coincides.:laugh:


Bro.Greg

 

[OldRegular]

That doesn't mean that God has thrown Israel aside.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The elect of Israel will be saved!

Would a born again Christian curse the Nation that brought forth our Savior? Can't imagine that.

You are playing dodge ball Amy G.

 

[Grasshopper]

^^^^^^^^^^To the above post ^^^^^^^^^^

:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:


To add, when did God rescind this:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Amy, has this been rescinded?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh

Has Jesus' condemnation of the Jews in Matthew 23 been rescinded?

Have the curses of Deuteronomy been rescinded?

 

[Grasshopper]

Here is what Dispies teach:

To make this point, dispensational author Charles Ryrie writes in his book The Living End that the Bible predicts a future holocaust for Israel.

“Jacob’s trouble is that coming period of distress described by Jesus as He spoke to His disciples on the Mount of Olives. Jeremiah labeled it ‘Jacob’s trouble’ and said it would be unique in all history (Jeremiah 30:7). Jesus called it a period of unprecedented tribulation (Matthew 24:21) this will be the time of Israel’s greatest bloodbath.”[3]

John F. Walvoord follows a similar line of interpretation:

“The purge of Israel in their time of trouble is described by Zechariah in these words: ‘And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried’ (Zechariah 13:8, 9). According to Zechariah’s prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish, but the one third that are left will be refined and be awaiting the deliverance of God at the second coming of Christ which is described in the next chapter of Zechariah.”[4]

Here is what Dispies do:

On Wings of Eagles assists needy Jews in making aliyah (immigrating to Israel). They come from all over the world—Russia, Argentina, India, Muslim countries and elsewhere—to escape anti-Semitism and extreme poverty, and to realize the dream of living in their biblical homeland. When they arrive in Israel, On Wings of Eagles provides them with klitah (resettlement) assistance to help them become full, productive citizens. Through your generous gift, The Fellowship's Wings ministry is being used to help fulfill the prophecies that promise to gather the Jewish exiles "from the four corners of the earth" (Isaiah 11:12)

http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageNavigator/eng/programs/on_wings_of_eagles



Make A Donation
For as little as the cost of a new cell phone ($360.00) you can help one Jewish person return to their biblical homeland and begin a new life. Be apart of God's plan for his chosen people and join us in supporting Bible prophecy. Donate today. No amount is too small or too large to help.

http://ezrainternational.org/donate/

If you and I care — and as Christians we should — there is a way to help. There is a Christian organization that God has raised up called “Ebenezer”; it is a ministry devoted to helping the Jewish people to return to Israel. I was not aware of this effort until one day I was invited to the dedication of a building to house the Ebenezer Ministry, in Brookfield, CT, which was about 500 yards from the Church where I am an associate pastor. Who knew?

I have always had a heart for the people, and the land of Israel, ever since I visited it in 1988. I was amazed and excited to see the extent that this effort has been organized, throughout the world, to bring the Jewish people home to Israel. Ebenezer needs your support in two principal ways. I urge you to pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6), and for the efforts of those in the Ebenezer ministry as they seek to assist in the fulfillment of the desire of the heart of God to restore the Jewish people to their covenant homeland. Last, but not least, I urge you to give. Give of your finances and your time to assist in this great work. You will surely be blessed; it’s a promise!

http://ebenezerusa.org/how-can-i-help/why-should-i-care-2/

Here is what the Jewish man said:

“The Christians just want us to be there so we can be slaughtered and converted and bring on the second coming of Jesus Christ.

“The worst possible allies for the Jewish state are the fundamentalist Christians who want Jews to die and convert so they can bring on the second coming of their Lord. It is a false friendship. They are seeking their own ends and not ours.
“I don’t believe the fundamentalists urging a greater Israel are friends of the Jewish state.”

Why is he wrong? Why do Dispies run from the obvious implication of their eschatology?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, has this been rescinded?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh

Has Jesus' condemnation of the Jews in Matthew 23 been rescinded?

Have the curses of Deuteronomy been rescinded?

Apparently my question is just too hard to be answered. Instead of an answer, I get a question.

In the verse you quoted, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees, not the Jews in general. Many Jews were saved during Jesus' ministry.

 

[Amy.G]

Here is what Dispies do:

No, that's what whacky organizations do. I don't know anyone who contributes to such organizations. No one can hasten God's plans, period.

 

[Grasshopper]

Apparently my question is just too hard to be answered. Instead of an answer, I get a question.

Easy answer, OT Israel does not exist and hasn't for 2000 years. However....

In the verse you quoted, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees, not the Jews in general. Many Jews were saved during Jesus' ministry

.

If you believe modern Israel is the Israel of the Bible then all the curses and woes found in the OT and the words of Jesus are still applicable to the Jews today. Funny, I never hear Dispies refer to Jews as the "children of the Devil" or their place of worship as the "synagogue of Satan". Is the modern Jews view of Jesus any different today than it was 2000 years ago?

 

[convicted1]

Well...OK...But I have seen and read stuff about full-preterists and partial-preterists with reference to both amill and postmill in reference to BOTH....guess it doesn't matter much to me since I think both of them are wrong no matter what the finer points would be...in my personal conviction and opinion. On this subject as with others, I comment up to the limit of either my understanding...or my level of patience...whichever comes first...and it varies sometimes but rarely coincides.:laugh:


Bro.Greg

Well, I am a partial-preterist AND also an AMIL, ya wanna make sumptin' of it?? LOL j/k with ya, Brother.

 

[kyredneck]

Who's talking about America fighting wars "for" Israel?

We can be supportive of them without fighting for them.

When did God rescind His word? I cannot find it in the Bible. Maybe you could enlighten me?

"There is a general GROSS misapplication of Gen 12:3 to physical Israel instead of to spiritual Israel, to which it applies, i.e. “Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ..... And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise” [Gal 3:16,29] The promises pertain to the Church of Christ, not to physical descendants of Abraham.

Take note; just as Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness BEFORE circumcision, so was this promise made to him BEFORE circumcision. Paul brings out the significance of that in Romans 4.

This putting the physical Jew on the pedestal and making them 'The Chosen Ones' is an outright lie and deception. It appears more than 50% of those that have voted so far believe this lie."
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1574989&postcount=4

See poll at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1574989#post1574989

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Just a thought..

Wow...The non-dispensationalists in here have gone viral! Going viral is what virus's do:smilewinkgrin:!

Just for the record...I am one dispensationalist that has NEVER read ANY of LaHaye's "Left Behind" books. I don't like mixing truth with fiction. I'm a realist at heart so why would I want to confuse the truth...I just don't see either the value OR the point. I do have some of those books in my library that were given to me by well-meaning friends...but I never read'em.

I prefer good books like THE Good Book!...my trusty old KJV. As for others ...well ...anything by Larkin...and also "Things To Come" by J.Dwight Pentecost and the excellent commentary on Revelation by James W.Knox among others. Skip the fiction...the world has too much of that to offer...give me truth...the kind that the Holy Spirit unveils!

By the way..I'm gonna say one last thing in this post...for anybody to accuse dispensationalists of wanting to assist Jews in returning to their promised homeland JUST SO THEY'LL BE KILLED TO HASTEN THE RETURN OF CHRIST is irresponsible and reprehensible AT THE VERY LEAST. It is despicable and offensive. When the times of tribulation overtake this world AFTER THE CHURCH is taken up (raptured) it won't matter where the Jews ARE (or the Gentiles either) The death and suffering that will overtake the remaining unbelievers in this world will take place on an unprecedented scale. This world has seen some rough stuff but I believe THAT kind of tribulation that has been prophecied is unimaginable. I'm glad the Church won't be here for that. If you don't believe that then I'm sorry for you....truly sorry. If any of us actually got what we were born here deserving we'd all roast in Hell. I have sincere hope that My Lord will spare me of that. Even if I die before the Lord comes...that's OK...death has lost it's sting thanks to Calvary!

Bro.Greg

 

[Oldtimer]

By the way..I'm gonna say one last thing in this post...for anybody to accuse dispensationalists of wanting to assist Jews in returning to their promised homeland JUST SO THEY'LL BE KILLED TO HASTEN THE RETURN OF CHRIST is irresponsible and reprehensible AT THE VERY LEAST. It is despicable and offensive. When the times of tribulation overtake this world AFTER THE CHURCH is taken up (raptured) it won't matter where the Jews ARE (or the Gentiles either) The death and suffering that will overtake the remaining unbelievers in this world will take place on an unprecedented scale. This world has seen some rough stuff but I believe THAT kind of tribulation that has been prophecied is unimaginable. I'm glad the Church won't be here for that. If you don't believe that then I'm sorry for you....truly sorry. If any of us actually got what we were born here deserving we'd all roast in Hell. I have sincere hope that My Lord will spare me of that. Even if I die before the Lord comes...that's OK...death has lost it's sting thanks to Calvary!
Bro.Greg

Brother Greg, I'm just a simple uneducated layman by today's standards. Reading these forums, often have to pull out a dictionary and the KJB to figure out those $10 words tossed out (by some) to impress those of us trying to move from milk to meat.

If any of us actually got what we were born here deserving we'd all roast in Hell.

I have sincere hope that My Lord will spare me of that.

Even if I die before the Lord comes...that's OK...death has lost it's sting thanks to Calvary!

Thank you. Three sentences. They say it all, IMO.

 

[kyredneck]

....Just for the record...I am one dispensationalist that has NEVER read ANY of LaHaye's "Left Behind" books. I don't like mixing truth with fiction. I'm a realist at heart so why would I want to confuse the truth...I just don't see either the value OR the point.....

The point is the Christian Zioniism that Premillennial Dispensationalism has morphed into; they believe:

“There are two distinct and parallel covenants in the Bible, one with Israel that is never revoked and the other with the Church that is superseded by the covenant with Israel. The Church is a “mere parenthesis” in God’s plan, and as such it will be removed from history during the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 5:1-11). At that point, Israel, as a nation, will be restored as the primary instrument of God on earth. Christian Zionists claim that Genesis 12:3 (“I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you”) should be interpreted literally and lead to political, economic, moral and spiritual support for the state of Israel and for the Jewish people in general.”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4930.htm

The 'hyper' Christian Zionists believe that “what Israel wants God wants, and every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised”. They believe that harnessing the wealth and power of the United States in the service of Israel is crucial to America's survival, i.e. in order to be blessed and not cursed [Gen 12:3].

In short, Premillennial Dispensationalism has for the most part become 'The Israel Cult'. They believe the Church of Christ is temporary, a “mere parenthesis”, and the nation of Israel takes front stage in their theology. The Judaizers at Galatia would be proud.

By the way..I'm gonna say one last thing in this post...for anybody to accuse dispensationalists of wanting to assist Jews in returning to their promised homeland JUST SO THEY'LL BE KILLED TO HASTEN THE RETURN OF CHRIST is irresponsible and reprehensible AT THE VERY LEAST. It is despicable and offensive.......

Are you an anti-Semite? It's JEWS that have been quoted here as saying those things.