Reconciled while enemies 2

[savedbymercy]

All those reconciled to God by the Death of His Son, even while they were experientially being enemies in and of themselves by nature, even children of wrath as others by nature, yet through being reconciled to God, and accepted in His Favor, they must therefore be Perfect in His sight, because God accepts no one or thing less than Perfection, for His Holiness demands it. Whatever, if its not absolutely Perfect, Cannot be accepted with God ! But that Death of Christ, by which all for whom Christ died, and did reconcile to God thereby, even while being enemies, that Death of His or His Offering of Himself for them, made them Perfect before God ! Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[DHK]

dhk



The Payment was made to God, Christ blood was applied to God's Law and Justice for those He died for ! And God accepted Christ's Blood !

And all of that is meaningless and just semantics unless a person accepts the gift that God provided through Christ, the gift of salvation. It must be received.

 

[The Biblicist]

All those reconciled to God by the Death of His Son, even while they were experientially being enemies in and of themselves by nature, even children of wrath as others by nature, yet through being reconciled to God, and accepted in His Favor, they must therefore be Perfect in His sight, because God accepts no one or thing less than Perfection, for His Holiness demands it. Whatever, if its not absolutely Perfect, Cannot be accepted with God ! But that Death of Christ, by which all for whom Christ died, and did reconcile to God thereby, even while being enemies, that Death of His or His Offering of Himself for them, made them Perfect before God ! Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

In each context, reception of reconciliation is stated as clearly as the obtaining of reconciliation by the work of Christ. You cannot divorce one without the other as they are both clearly stated. Christ obtained the LEGAL BASIS for reconciliation but the Holy Spirit obtained APPLIED reconciliation.

Rom. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled [Gr. καταλλασσω] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement [Gr. καταλλαγη].

They "were" reconciled by Christ on the cross when enemies but it was only the LEGAL BASIS accepted by God which must be "NOW RECEIVED" (v. 10) or applied by the Holy Spirit (v. 5).

The cross does not apply actual salvation any more than the eternal purpose of God applies salvation. That is the covenant obligation and work of the Holy Spirit.

The Eternal purpose of God secures its DESIGN. The Cross secures its LEGAL BASIS but it is the work of the Holy Spirit that ACTUALLY and LITERALLY secures it in regard to the person of the elect.



2 Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation [Gr καταλλαγη] . 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled [Gr. καταλλασσω] to God.

Christ provided the legal basis for reconciliation by the cross but the actual and literal application is obtained by the Holy Spirit's work.

The eternal Purpose of God obtains NOTHING but PURPOSE that must be executed by God. The certainity of its execution is the doctrine of predestination. The Legal basis for its execution is the redemptive work of Christ but the actual salvation accomplished is the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[billwald]

>And all of that is meaningless and just semantics unless a person accepts the gift that God provided through Christ, the gift of salvation. It must be received.

Why? I can buy a new car and have your name put on the title. If I drive the car off the lot and leave it at a parking meter you will have to prove the car and the ticket is not yours.

 

[The Biblicist]

>And all of that is meaningless and just semantics unless a person accepts the gift that God provided through Christ, the gift of salvation. It must be received.

Why? I can buy a new car and have your name put on the title. If I drive the car off the lot and leave it at a parking meter you will have to prove the car and the ticket is not yours.

Your analogy is faulty. You claim to both purchase the car and put it in his name and yet drive it as well. In real life, the car can be purchased and placed in another name but no one has the right to drive it off the lot but the registered owner as that is part and parcel of RECEIVING it - taking the keys, getting in and driving it.

 

[DHK]

>And all of that is meaningless and just semantics unless a person accepts the gift that God provided through Christ, the gift of salvation. It must be received.

Why? I can buy a new car and have your name put on the title. If I drive the car off the lot and leave it at a parking meter you will have to prove the car and the ticket is not yours.

Jesus is the way.
He purchased the ticket for me.
He has already given me the title deed.
In fact I am not only his heir, I am his joint heir. Thus I don't have to prove anything for I am joint heir to the King of kings and the Creator of all things. Why would I have to prove anything to One who is so powerful? The one (devil) who is trying to ticket me has a real problem trying to explain his problem to the King and the King's heir. He doesn't have a chance.
Whosoever is born of God overcomes the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith (1John 5:4).

 

[savedbymercy]

And all of that is meaningless and just semantics unless a person accepts the gift that God provided through Christ, the gift of salvation. It must be received.

It sounds like to me you are calling Christ's Blood to the Law and Justice of God meaningless !

 

[DHK]

It sounds like to me you are calling Christ's Blood to the Law and Justice of God meaningless !

If the King accepts the ransom payment paid for the criminal. And the criminal has been told his ransom has been paid; he can now go free. If the criminal spits in his face, rejects the payment that has been paid, and says I can do it on my own, then the criminal stays locked up. There is nothing more that can be done for him.

He must receive the note that says "paid in full." If he doesn't he pays with his life.
If the sinner does not receive the gift of salvation, wherein the message says "sins: paid in full," he will forever remain separated from God. There is no more that can be done for him. But he must accept it. Salvation is a gift. It must be accepted by faith.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Gift of God !

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Salvation here is the Gift of God, the result of Christ's Offering to the Father, to His Law and Justice. Thats is what the word gift here means. Its not a gift as a present we may offer to give someone for their acceptance or refusal, but it is that Gift that went upon the Altar of God's Law and Justice and was sweet smelling Savor unto God. The word for Gift here is the greek word dōron
and primarily means an offering like here Matt 5:23

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

You see, the altar is not offered the gift to see if it will accept it or not ! The altar is not asked to make choice to accept the gift !

Matt 8:4

And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

You see, the gift is an Offering , not a make available to see if one will take it or not !

Notice in Hebrews how the word gift is used, the same word as in Eph 2:8 ! Heb 5:1

For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:


Heb 8:3-4

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Heb 9:9

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Heb 11:4

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


After looking at this word and its usage, I am convinced that the Gift of God here in Eph 2:8 is specifically speaking of the Offering of Christ as a Sacrifice.

1 Cor 5:7

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:


He was sacrificed to God, to His Law and Justice, and the Results is Salvation by Grace through Faith, it is the Gift of God ! That is Christ's Offering of Himself is the meritorious cause of our Salvation , not anything we did !

Those who deny this and Salvation by Christ's Death alone, they are guilty of defacing Christ and derogates His Sacrifice !

Many adversaries state without shame that Christ's Sacrifice in and of itself accomplished nothing for those He died for, Blasphemy !

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

If the King accepts the ransom payment paid for the criminal. And the criminal has been told his ransom has been paid; he can now go free.

Thats not how its work, the criminal is set free. Its not an offer to the criminal. The criminal is set free !

Jn 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us [ Offering/ Gift], that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

This word redeem means ,its the word lytroō and means:


to release on receipt of ransom

2) to redeem, liberate by payment of ransom

a) to liberate

b) to cause to be released to one's self by payment of a ransom

c) to redeem

d) to deliver: from evils of every kind, internal and external


By the Ransom being paid,it causes their release, one is redeemed and released unto God. Its a purely Sovereign Transaction, those Christ died for are simply redeemed unto God by His Blood Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain[Offering], and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

They had no choice in the matter at all ,it was all God's Choice !

So your understanding of this matter is humanistic and against the Truth !

 

[DHK]

They had no choice in the matter at all ,it was all God's Choice !

So your understanding of this matter is humanistic and against the Truth !

And since Christ died for all, you must believe all are sovereignly saved by His grace. They have no choice in the matter. The Muslims who flew those jets in the WTC towers are just as saved as you, as are the Syrian protestors and the government, and all in Islamic nations. They have been justified for Christ paid the penalty for them all. Your are a true Universalist.

 

[The Biblicist]

dhk



Thats not how its work, the criminal is set free. Its not an offer to the criminal. The criminal is set free !

Jn 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us [ Offering/ Gift], that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

This word redeem means ,its the word lytroō and means:


to release on receipt of ransom

2) to redeem, liberate by payment of ransom

a) to liberate

b) to cause to be released to one's self by payment of a ransom

c) to redeem

d) to deliver: from evils of every kind, internal and external


By the Ransom being paid,it causes their release, one is redeemed and released unto God. Its a purely Sovereign Transaction, those Christ died for are simply redeemed unto God by His Blood Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain[Offering], and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

They had no choice in the matter at all ,it was all God's Choice !

So your understanding of this matter is humanistic and against the Truth !

You are confusing OBJECTIVE freedom from sin with SUBJECTIVE freedom from sin.

Objectively they are regarded as objectively free according to God's Purpose but they are not subjectiively free until actual freedom is granted their own person by the Holy Spirit. Objectively they are regarded as free according to Christ's redemption but they are not subjectively free until actual freedom is granted their own person by the Holy Spirit.

Objective Purpose ("I have purposed it") must be subjectively implemented ("I will do it") - Isa. 46:11

Objective Redemption ("while they were yet enemies they were reconciled") must be subjectively implemented ("Now have received reconciliation").

When you confuse the two false doctrine is the consequence and you have confused the two.

What you are teaching is correct OBJECTIVELY but when you regard it as IMPLEMENTED or APPLIED you are wrong.

The OBJECTIVE purpose and redemptive basis has been obtained but the SUBJECTIVE application is not the work of the Father or the Son but the covenant obligation and work of the Holy Spirit. His work is applied IN TIME not IN ETERNITY. His work is applied to THE PERSON not merely to PUPROSE and LEGAL PROVISION.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

And since Christ died for all, you must believe all are sovereignly saved by His grace.

You should know what I believe, I have been posting it ! What about post 30m where I refuted that humanism ?

 

[DHK]

dhk



You should know what I believe, I have been posting it ! What about post 30m where I refuted that humanism ?

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

It is not God that is the humanist here. That is a terrible accusation.
For God desires all men to be saved.
He is not willing that any should perish.
It is his will that all should come to repentance.
Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

You cannot redefine these words at your own whim and will.
They mean what they say.
According to their meaning that would make you the Universalist.

 

[David Michael Harris]

2 Peter 3:9 may have been taken out of context there!

 

[savedbymercy]

No one has been able to refute the OP, everything is evading that obvious assertion !

 

[The Biblicist]

No one has been able to refute the OP, everything is evading that obvious assertion !

Simply false! You have ignored the immediate context of both Romans 4 and 2 Cor. 5. In both contexts there are TWO different kinds of reconciliation mentioned.

1. Objective reconciliation ("were reconciled by his death" "in Christ reconciling the world")

2. Subjective reconciliation ("now received the atonement" "ministry of reconciliation")

God the Father reconciled according to His eternal purpose before the world began OBJECTIVELY but not literally or actually = subjectively.

God the Son reconciled "according to the demanded legal basis" OBJECTIVELY not not literally or actually = subjectively.

God the Holy Spirit APPLIES God's objective purpose and the Son's Objective purchase IN TIME subjectively = literally and actually.

 

[savedbymercy]

Simply false!

No its not false. You believe that people that Christ died for, and by that death, they have been reconciled to God, even while being enemies Rom 5:10, you believe those same ones, while being enemies and reconciled, can also be under God's Wrath and condemnation as in Jn 3:18, 36, dont you believe that ? Yes or No !

 

[The Biblicist]

No its not false. You believe that people that Christ died for, and by that death, they have been reconciled to God, even while being enemies Rom 5:10, you believe those same ones, while being enemies and reconciled, can also be under God's Wrath and condemnation as in Jn 3:18, 36, dont you believe that ? Yes or No !

Why should I answer you when you NEVER answer my questions?

The words "reconcile" and "enemies" are not synonyms but antonyms.

The fact is that TWO types of reconciliation are found in Rom. 5:10-11 and two types are found in 2 Cor. 5:17-19.

Christ provided the objective provision for the complete salvation of God's elect regarded as a corporate group according to God's purpose. However, individual subjective application is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Until it is applied at a certain point in time personally and indivdually they are personally and individually "enemies", lost, as well as "children of wrath" and in need to be reconciled to God as friends.

When it is applied at a certain point in time at that point they are no longer dead spiritually, lost, no longer children of wrath, no longer enemies of God individually and personally.

Your doctrine is false and your view of scripture is twisted as you confuse apples with oranges.

 

[savedbymercy]

What the adversaries of Truth have failed to acknowledge, and is why they are guilty of diminishing the Merit's of Christ's Death alone, apart from the application work of the Spirit, that is, even though these Christ died for, and by His Death did reconcile them to God Legally, even while they are being enemies; while others, whom Christ did not die for, and while they are being enemies, they are under God's Wrath and Condemnation as Per Jn 3:18,36

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

See, the Wrath of God cannot abide on any for whom Christ died, because for them, His Wrath has been appeased solely by the Blood of Christ !

Now clearly the only difference from one group being reconciled to God while being enemies, and another group being under God's Wrath and Condemnation while being enemies, the only difference is the Death of Christ ! If this cannot be acknowledged then we are against Christ, against His Death, against His Blood, and The Accomplishments of it before the Law and Justice of God for those He died for !