Some gifts are temporary. Paul said when Christ ascended, He gave gifts, and he gave some Apostles . . .
Who are the Apostles today?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Biblical Argument for Cessationism
- Thread starter 12strings
- Start date
Who are the Apostles today?
Not necessarily, show me the verse or passage that lists one of the other gifts of our Holy Spirit that one or more of the disciples used to authenticate Christ, themselves or the New Testament and I will consider adding it the my short signs and wonders list. Remember all my views simply repeat what I believe the Bible teaches and therefore can be supported Biblically, such as I did for those three sign and wonder gifts used to authenticate.
Yes, I have made a biblical argument for the cessation of the sign and wonder gifts used to authenticate Christ, the disciples and the New Testament.
I have not used "experience" because if you study the bible, there are long periods where God did not use sign and wonder miracles, so we should not use the lack of evidence as evidence of cessation.
Most of all I deny your mystical, esoteric, metaphysical, existential definition of the word.
1 Corinthians 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
Apostles is a leadership roll in the church...One who is sent by God. They are to be here until the entire church comes into unity. They are given to equip the church for that very work and are absolutely necessary so that the church can come to maturity.
An apostle is set by God. Once the first apostles are set, later apostles such as Paul came to the proviously-set apostles to receive authority to minister in the capacity of apostle.
In understanding Ephesians 4:12-16, you must go back to the main verb, edoken, in verse 11. Christ gave the gifts. He gave the office of apostle. He gave the four ministries. Those gifts are not the persons but the Christ in those persons, as another passage says, "Christ in us, the hope of glory." The text cannot be read any other way than to understand that these gifts are performing all of this work as the gifts proceed from Christ. Grace means, literally, free gift. This is grace, and we know from Scripture that it is grace that does any work that is done. In fact, God could give no greater gift, so He gave us of Himself. He chooses to do it through apostles, ones sent. He chooses to not use those who send themselves or who are sent by men. It is plain from the Greek that it is not gifted people who do any of this work, but rather the Gift Himself does the work through the members. This is true whether it is the apostle who is totally equipping and completing the member or the member who is now also moving in the power and authority of the same gift. When any member comes into submission to the apostle, that person carries the same anointing and authority of the apostle just as long and to the extent that they are in submission. They are not submitting to a man but to Christ Himself. If you can discern the Body of Christ, you will see this. If you see this, flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but your Father in Heaven has revealed it.
No it doesn't. We have been through this before. I gave you some other translations to look at it. You are hung up on this "manifestations of the Spirit" phrase without knowing its actual meaning. Here is six word phrase used only one time in the Bible, that you have made a major doctrine out of. (Or others have made up the doctrine for you and you just blindly follow it.)
Define it. What is it? What is this "manifestation of the Spirit" doctrine, and why can't you use other words in defining yourself.
First the passage is talking about some problem relating to the local church at Corinth. It is a local church problem. The teaching is directed only to local churches.
Second, it is speaking of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which are enumerated twice in that chapter, and when they are listed in 12:28 they are listed in order of importance. In 12:30 they are so listed as to make sure that the reader understands that no one has all the gifts, and that each one has just one or maybe two gifts.
Let's look at an example. You said there were nine gifts. Let's say there are ten for easy counting. If the church had one hundred members, and the gifts were distributed equally as chapter 12 suggests, that means that only 1 in every 10 would speak in tongues or 10 people out of that congregation of 100. They are not commanded to seek for tongues. In fact the opposite is true. They are commanded to use the gifts that God has given them. In this way the church would function. Not everyone can be an eye. Not everyone can be a hand. Not everyone can be the head. It says in the KJV that there are some that have to be the more "uncomely parts." They are given the gift of servanthood that sometimes no one else recognizes.
1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1 Corinthians 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
--The obvious answer to these rhetorical questions is: NO.
There is no mysterious "manifestation" as you hear others speak of here.
He is speaking of the distribution of the gifts of Spirit among a local church. Some were desirous of gifts which others had. Paul was teaching them to be content with whatever gift God had given you, and not to seek other gifts.
Last edited by a moderator:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I'm not denying that. The office had a certain authority, and the signs of an apostle accompanied the one that held the office.
What was that authority, what were the signs, and who occupies the office today?
I'll answer, because I've been where you are, and I know that no amount of reasoning from the Scriptures will prevail with you. They held authority over all the churches of God. Their conclusions held the force and effect of Scripture.
To be an apostle, one had to be taught directly by Christ, had to have seen the risen Christ with his natural eyes, and had to speak by revelation. Miraculous signs accompanied them--truly miraculous. Not the miracles of the Benny Hinn flavor.
Now, who holds that office today?
BTW, this disqualifies you as Baptist. There are only two offices in the church, bishop and deacon.
Last edited by a moderator:
Really what happen Eph. 4:11..it names apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers.
Pay very close attention to the whole chapter...
Paul is speaking of the vocation wherewith one is CALLED.
To keep the unity of the Spirit in peace.
This was after Jesus ascended...so there are apostles after Jesus ascended.
Apostles, prophets and evangelists are not offices in the local church. Let's focus on apostles. They are appointed by Christ directly, not by the laying of hands of the presbytery. They are taught by Christ directly.
Who holds this office today?
Administrators: this discussion should be moved to the Christian Debate Forums. awaken is not a Baptist, his profile notwithstanding.
Who holds this office today?
Administrators: this discussion should be moved to the Christian Debate Forums. awaken is not a Baptist, his profile notwithstanding.
Was Paul taught by Christ directly? Or was it by the Holy Spirit? Or we not taught also by the Holy Spirit?
Do you believe in the trinity?
You haven't defined the manifestation of the Spirit either. And don't just give a Bible reference. Define it.
And I agree with you that scripture does not declare it at this time.