Yes, by revelation. He conferred not with flesh and blood.
Sure, through flesh and blood teachers.
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Biblical Argument for Cessationism
- Thread starter 12strings
- Start date
Whether you acknowledge it or not, you have been shown Scripture describing the temporary nature of the ecstatic manifestations.
Temporary yes...but it is very difficult to establish scriptural that those manifestations ceased at the end of the NT era...especially 1 Cor. 13 could easily be interpreted as those things ceasing at the return and victory of Christ, when we see no longer darkly in a mirror but clearly. There is no scriptural timeline that says a specific time, or even era when they will cease.
The best biblical argument is the one van and others have pointed to, that the signs occur at certain periods in biblical history to authenticate a new message...but are not needed once the foundational message has been established. But still, not specific timeline about cessation...more of a general noticing of broad biblical patterns.
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Not sure you point here...my point is you used the arguement "It is not stated that the ecstatic gifts and operations will abide." to prove that hey are not in existance today...but there are many things that are not specifically stated to 'ABIDE" in scripture that still exist...hymns, praying, insects...etc.
That's exactly my point. I don't know. It's not clear from the passage. But for the argument of tongues ceasing to work, Knowledge must have ceased too.
True, but how do we know that paul is speaking specifically of the establishment of the the church (50yrs or so) and not looking forward to the coming of Christ?
This the argument that everyone gives, but How do you KNOW this?
"Contrary to what may be generally believed about the Bible, it is not willy nilly chocked full of miracles and signs throughout; but these miracles and signs are generally confined to three periods of time. These are the times of Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and Christ and the Apostles. It doesn't require one to be a Bible scholar to make an honest assessment that yes, there has been a cessation of miracles and signs, and some of these 'gifts' were for the purpose of signs, prophecy being one of them, both to the unbelieving and believing."
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1558313#post1558313
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1558313#post1558313
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At the coming of Christ, faith and hope will also cease, and Paul is clearly saying faith, hope and love abide when the others have ceased.
My problem with the gifts being foundational is...
# 1. Paul expected the gifts to be here at the coming of Jesus in 1 Cor. 1:4-7.."...so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ."
#2. These manifestations are an administration of the Holy Spirit that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost when He came to indwell and give power to the church. It began the church age. Is the Holy Spirit still indwelling believers today? Are there still unbelievers in the world? Do we still pray? Do we still need the Holy Spirits help? The church age has not ended yet! The new covenant is still in affect! It has nothing to do with the death of the original apostles.
#3 Many have pointed out that tongues is a sign for the unbeliever...Don't we still have unbelievers in the world?
#4 When you examine Pauls writings, he repeatedly wrote about the soon return of our Lord. "That which is perfect" is the return of the "Perfect one" that has "perfect knowledge" that is when the others manifestations will be unnecessary.
#4 added to #3..."he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6) We are not complete!
Paul used teleios seven other times in the New Testament (Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 2:6, 14:20, Ephesians 4:13, Philippians 3:15, Colossians 1:28, 4:12). With the sole exception of Romans 12:2, it's clear that every time Paul used the Greek word teleios ("perfection") he was referring to the spiritual maturity of believers. This will not happen until Jesus returns.
I have more but I will stop there!
Too much of the same stuff is different threads..but I will post it here too!
Manifestation (phanerosis) means " a manifestation, a making viseble or observable." It is being detectable by the five senses.
We experience manifestations all the time...
Electric energy in a light bulb is manifested in the form of light and heat. We can not see the energy but we can feel and see the light and heat. ELECTRIC ENERGY BEING MANIFESTED.
A manifestation of chicken pox disease is a rash with small pimple-like sores. We cannot see the virus inside but we can see it once it is manfested-sores.
We cannot see the Holy Spirit..but He is manifested! 1 Cor. 14-10 shows how He can manifest to the physical world. It is not us doing any of the 9 listed! It is the Holy Spirit using us to manifest in the world as a witness that He was poured out to all flesh on the Day of Pentcost. He was given to the church... for the church...and will be here until we are raptured out of here
Not all are called to be teachers...but the ones that are called..don't you see that they need the Holy Spirit to teach them what the scriptures mean?
THen if they are still here..Don't we need to learn more about them and how the Holy Spirit wants to manifest in these ways in our lives?
No, just your interpretation of "that which is perfect"..which does not agree with scripturs!
I was wondering when someone woud bring this up...
THis theory is without Biblical support.
If I can show you miracles that took place outside these periods...would that prove this theory wrong?
He said NOW abideth faith hope and charity! THe whole chapter is saying that without Love...all the rest is useless!
When we are as children we do not act in love...but when we become a man we do not act in childish/loveless ways. (But when we become a man...varies with everyone..because I know some 60 year olds that still do not act in love). We are still growing spiritually! That does not stop until we see him face to face!
Phil. 4:12..even Paul said he had not attained to perfection!
Go back and read it again:
".......miracles and signs are generally confined to three periods of time. These are the times of Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and Christ and the Apostles......"
Our miracle working God does not fit in a man-made theory. His supernatural power explodes across ALL THE PAGES OF SCRIPTURE.
The theory of "Only three periods of miracles" do not hold in the Bible.
I did not say they are still here. I said scripture does not declare them ceased. That being true it does not automatically lead to they do exist still and are active. God has no need to announce the coming and going of His works.
I have studied these gifts and looked for them. I would be interested for someone to show me a legitimate case where it happens but no where on the internet or in direct experience have I seen a good sound biblical showing of these sign gifts today.
Sounds like you are straddling the fence a little on this one
Sounds like you are straddling the fence a little on this one
I am open to real biblical occurrences. But the jibberish that goes on in the church is not it.