Biblical Argument for Cessationism

[awaken]

There are 12 foundations in the New Jerusalem with 12 names written on each, one for each apostle.
Judas was the "son of perdition." He was not saved. His office would have to be replaced, even according to prophecy, as Peter points out in Acts chapter one. There is no apostolic succession. Those names up there in the New Jerusalem will be forever inscribed. They will never be changed.

First, I remember many scriptures warning against false teachers, false prophets, and even false Christs. But I don't remember any against false "apostles." What reference are you thinking of. Even so, Satan is a great imitator. We don't have any genuine prophets around but there are many that claim to be.
Sun Myung Moon recently died. He claimed to be a reincarnation of Jesus Christ.
Fraudulent people can claim anything they want and deceive many.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2 Corinthians 11:13; Rev. 2:2

 

[Aaron]

DHK,

awaken cannot be persuaded. If he will not yield to the texts of Scripture, neither will he yield to any reasoning therefrom. To change his mind, if he is elect, God will take him to a point where he will need all the "power" he thinks is manifest in the Pentecostal and Charismatic confessions, and it won't be there. Then he truly will be awakened, and he will see the fountain of true faith, true hope, and true charity.

I am amazed, though, that the administrators are allowing him to post in the Baptist Only sections.

 

[awaken]

DHK,

awaken cannot be persuaded. If he will not yield to the texts of Scripture, neither will he yield to any reasoning therefrom. To change his mind, if he is elect, God will take him to a point where he will need all the "power" he thinks is manifest in the Pentecostal and Charismatic confessions, and it won't be there. Then he truly will be awakened, and he will see the fountain of true faith, true hope, and true charity.

I am amazed, though, that the administrators are allowing him to post in the Baptist Only sections.

Persuade me?? Maybe if you could back up what you believe with scriptures without false interpretation...I would be persuaded!

But instead you get personal, condemn and ridicule! You keep claiming all this has ceased and no proof.
1 Cor. 13 does not mention scriptures! Why didn't Paul use the Greek words for scriptures? Look back on Pauls writing what he refers to as perfect..as I have shown! It is not the complete canon!

 

[DHK]

Persuade me?? Maybe if you could back up what you believe with scriptures without false interpretation...I would be persuaded!

But instead you get personal, condemn and ridicule! You keep claiming all this has ceased and no proof.
1 Cor. 13 does not mention scriptures! Why didn't Paul use the Greek words for scriptures? Look back on Pauls writing what he refers to as perfect..as I have shown! It is not the complete canon!

Here is false interpretation, but you won't admit it.
1Cor.12-14 is all about spiritual gifts. Paul says in 12:1, "I would not have you ignorant concerning spiritual gifts," and then spends three chapters on the subject.

In chapter 12 he lists all of the gifts and tells how each member needs to use the gift that God gave them and not to be envious of other gifts, for the church functions as one body. He concludes by listing all the gifts in order of importance with tongues last, as the least important.

The better gift (love) is introduced and described in detail in the first 7 verses of chapter 13.
For the rest of those three chapters, from 13:8 to the end of chapter 14 Paul zones in on a specific kind of gift, gifts that specifically have to do with revelation. Three specific gifts are mentioned in 13:8--prophecy, tongues and (revelatory) knowledge. Each one of those gifts have to do with how God revealed his Word to us; how he communicated His knowledge to us. They have to do with revelation; as does all of chapter 14.

In spite of this context you would have us to believe that 13:9-13 is speaking of something entirely different other than revelatory gifts, that somehow God just threw a monkey wrench into the midst of everything and changed the subject just because it doesn't fit into the Charismatic paradigm.

"That which is perfect or complete has come." That refers to the Word of God. That is what the context is. Other interpretations are out of context. That which is in part (temporary sign gifts, temporary revelatory gifts) have been done away with; have ceased. That is the context.

You have been shown this but you reject the obvious truth of Scripture and have decided to outside of the context of these three chapters to insert your own ideas, ideas that Paul never introduced, never even talked about.

 

[awaken]

Here is false interpretation, but you won't admit it.
1Cor.12-14 is all about spiritual gifts. Paul says in 12:1, "I would not have you ignorant concerning spiritual gifts," and then spends three chapters on the subject.

In chapter 12 he lists all of the gifts and tells how each member needs to use the gift that God gave them and not to be envious of other gifts, for the church functions as one body. He concludes by listing all the gifts in order of importance with tongues last, as the least important.

You keep bringing this out, but if you will read chapter 12 closer you would see that all members and there manifestations are important! We are not to say I am of no use to the body because all I can manifest is tongues..

The better gift (love) is introduced and described in detail in the first 7 verses of chapter 13.k

Why is that? Because those in Corinthians were not acting in love. Chapter 13 does not for bid the gifts...just do everything with Love as your motive.

For the rest of those three chapters, from 13:8 to the end of chapter 14 Paul zones in on a specific kind of gift, gifts that specifically have to do with revelation. Three specific gifts are mentioned in 13:8--prophecy, tongues and (revelatory) knowledge. Each one of those gifts have to do with how God revealed his Word to us; how he communicated His knowledge to us. They have to do with revelation; as does all of chapter 14.

In spite of this context you would have us to believe that 13:9-13 is speaking of something entirely different other than revelatory gifts, that somehow God just threw a monkey wrench into the midst of everything and changed the subject just because it doesn't fit into the Charismatic paradigm.

No, I did not...Chapter 13 describes what will end and when it will end. But as I have shown before, you can not prove those gifts have cease from this scripture!

"That which is perfect or complete has come." That refers to the Word of God. That is what the context is. Other interpretations are out of context. That which is in part (temporary sign gifts, temporary revelatory gifts) have been done away with; have ceased. That is the context.

no! that is your context to satisfy your theory! Why didn't Paul use the Greek word for scripture if he was speaking of scripture? You know why because he was not! He explains when it will be done away with...face to face! know as we are known!

You have been shown this but you reject the obvious truth of Scripture and have decided to outside of the context of these three chapters to insert your own ideas, ideas that Paul never introduced, never even talked about.

No, I reject your interpretation of scriptures!

 

[DHK]

2 Corinthians 11:13; Rev. 2:2

2 Corinthians 11:13 οι γαρ τοιουτοι ψευδαποστολοι εργαται δολιοι μετασχηματιζομενοι εις αποστολους χριστου

This word ψευδαποστολοι is not the same as this word αποστολους.

The latter means apostle, and is followed by Christ, meaning the apostles of Christ.
The former is a word which can mean: "a spurious apostle, i.e. pretended preacher:—false teacher." (Strong's)
Thus the most common and intended meaning of the word is "false teacher."

In Revelation 2:2, "there are those who 'say' they are apostles but are not."
You can't figure that one out.?

In Hindu Temples they say Ganesh is a god with an elephant head and a human body. Presumably he lived at one time in their history like that, and thus is now so worshiped. So they "say." Do you believe everything people "say"? When people nowadays say they are "Christ" do you believe them? So what if they said they were apostles, does that mean they were? Christ commended the church for not believing their ridiculous claims.

thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
--They knew that there were only 12.

 

[awaken]

One more thing to add the only times Paul mentioned the scriptures in 1 Corinthians is in 15:4,5. You will not find the word Canon in scriptures or a reference to the completing of scriptures.
Again why wouldn't he say Graphe? As he did in 1 Cor. 15?





Graphe: 1124 grafhv Graphe (graf-ay');
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine
of uncertain affinity

a writing, thing written
the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture

KJV Word Count (Graphe #1124) scripture 51

 

[DHK]

no! that is your context to satisfy your theory! Why didn't Paul use the Greek word for scripture if he was speaking of scripture? You know why because he was not! He explains when it will be done away with...face to face! know as we are known!

The Greek word is teleios. It is neuter and singular. There is more than one word that refers to the Bible, there are many. Rhema is one such word. It is neuter and singular.

No, I reject your interpretation of scriptures!

You reject context. You interject your own ideas into the context of the chapter.

 

[awaken]

2 Corinthians 11:13 οι γαρ τοιουτοι ψευδαποστολοι εργαται δολιοι μετασχηματιζομενοι εις αποστολους χριστου

This word ψευδαποστολοι is not the same as this word αποστολους.

The latter means apostle, and is followed by Christ, meaning the apostles of Christ.
The former is a word which can mean: "a spurious apostle, i.e. pretended preacher:—false teacher." (Strong's)
Thus the most common and intended meaning of the word is "false teacher."

In Revelation 2:2, "there are those who 'say' they are apostles but are not."
You can't figure that one out.?

In Hindu Temples they say Ganesh is a god with an elephant head and a human body. Presumably he lived at one time in their history like that, and thus is now so worshiped. So they "say." Do you believe everything people "say"? When people nowadays say they are "Christ" do you believe them? So what if they said they were apostles, does that mean they were? Christ commended the church for not believing their ridiculous claims.

thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
--They knew that there were only 12.

Curious..why would they even try them unless there was a possiblity that they could be genuine?

 

[awaken]

The Greek word is teleios. It is neuter and singular. There is more than one word that refers to the Bible, there are many. Rhema is one such word. It is neuter and singular.

You reject context. You interject your own ideas into the context of the chapter.

Which interjection is my own idea?

Rhema is Greek for Bible? Really? Where do you see that the written word is in Rhema?

Rhema: 4487 rJh'ma Rhema (hray'-mah);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter
from (4483)

that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
speech, discourse
what one has said
a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)
an utterance
a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c
concerning some occurrence
subject matter of speech, thing spoken of
so far forth as it is a matter of narration
so far as it is a matter of command
a matter of dispute, case at law

KJV Word Count (Rhema #4487) word 56
saying 9
thing 3
no thing 1
not translated 1

 

[awaken]

2 Corinthians 11:13 οι γαρ τοιουτοι ψευδαποστολοι εργαται δολιοι μετασχηματιζομενοι εις αποστολους χριστου

This word ψευδαποστολοι is not the same as this word αποστολους.

The latter means apostle, and is followed by Christ, meaning the apostles of Christ.
The former is a word which can mean: "a spurious apostle, i.e. pretended preacher:—false teacher." (Strong's)
Thus the most common and intended meaning of the word is "false teacher."

But didn't he use a different word for false teacher!

Isn't Paul defending his own apostleship in that chapter...he is speaking of false apostles!

 

[DHK]

But didn't he use a different word for false teacher!

Isn't Paul defending his own apostleship in that chapter...he is speaking of false apostles!

He is defending himself against that same group of people he defended himself in the first epistle who also were called false teachers. They had not moved on. It did not matter what they called themselves; they were heretics that were trying to deceive the true believers. Paul tells them that even Satan himself turns himself into an angel of light. Don't follow them. This is no argument to put forth to defend the present existence of the apostolic office. It doesn't exist.

 

[DHK]

Which interjection is my own idea?

Rhema is Greek for Bible? Really? Where do you see that the written word is in Rhema?

Rhema: 4487 rJh'ma Rhema (hray'-mah);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter
from (4483)

It is a legitimate word, meaning "word" as in the "word of God."
It is used here, for example:

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

That refers to the Word of God. It is a legitimate use of God's Word, used by Jesus himself. It refers to "God's revelation". The "revelation" of God was completed by the end of the first century.

 

[awaken]

It is a legitimate word, meaning "word" as in the "word of God."
It is used here, for example:

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

That refers to the Word of God. It is a legitimate use of God's Word, used by Jesus himself. It refers to "God's revelation". The "revelation" of God was completed by the end of the first century.

Rhema is not the written word...nor does it refer to it in the Written Word as such. It is always a spoken word!

 

[DHK]

Rhema is not the written word...nor does it refer to it in the Written Word as such. It is always a spoken word!

It refers to the Word of God. It refers to the Word of Christ. It refers to revelation. That is all that it has to refer to. The context is "revelation."
1Cor.13:8 refers to tongues, prophecy, and (revelatory) knowledge. They would all cease. None of them were "written" gifts. Thus rhema fits perfectly well.
Jesus "spoke" this world into existence as Creator. Does that make His Word any less powerful because it is not written down when he did it.

 

[awaken]

It refers to the Word of God. It refers to the Word of Christ. It refers to revelation. That is all that it has to refer to. The context is "revelation."
1Cor.13:8 refers to tongues, prophecy, and (revelatory) knowledge. They would all cease. None of them were "written" gifts. Thus rhema fits perfectly well.
Jesus "spoke" this world into existence as Creator. Does that make His Word any less powerful because it is not written down when he did it.

You are trying to say it is the written word...it is not! Yes! ..a spoken word...that we still get today! But not the written word or as some call it the canon.

 

[DHK]

You are trying to say it is the written word...it is not! Yes! ..a spoken word...that we still get today! But not the written word or as some call it the canon.

I have consistently referred to the canon of Scripture as God's revelation. God's revelation can either be written or spoken; God is not bound by what form of revelation he uses, at least not in the past. Heb.1:1,2 tells us that he used various ways during various times with the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken through his son. God has spoken through his Son through his Word. But we had to get to that place. There was a transitional phase. That transitional phase was the first century when temporary revelatory gifts were in existence. They gave revelation orally. It was given via prophecy, tongues and revelatory knowledge.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--These three gifts are gifts of revelation. Revelation was given to them and they orally gave that revelation to the rest of the church.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

They knew in part (the OT), and they prophesied in part (oral revelatory gift of the Spirit). But when (the completed revelation is come) then that which is in part, (temporary revelatory gifts) shall be done away.
The subject is revelation. Rhema directly refers to revelation. The gifts were all oral or spoken (that are mentioned in 13:8).

 

[awaken]

I have consistently referred to the canon of Scripture as God's revelation. God's revelation can either be written or spoken; God is not bound by what form of revelation he uses, at least not in the past. Heb.1:1,2 tells us that he used various ways during various times with the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken through his son. God has spoken through his Son through his Word. But we had to get to that place. There was a transitional phase. That transitional phase was the first century when temporary revelatory gifts were in existence. They gave revelation orally. It was given via prophecy, tongues and revelatory knowledge.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--These three gifts are gifts of revelation. Revelation was given to them and they orally gave that revelation to the rest of the church.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

They knew in part (the OT), and they prophesied in part (oral revelatory gift of the Spirit). But when (the completed revelation is come) then that which is in part, (temporary revelatory gifts) shall be done away.
The subject is revelation. Rhema directly refers to revelation. The gifts were all oral or spoken (that are mentioned in 13:8).

We have discussed this and have disagreed many times! That which is complete is not the Bible!

Discerning of Spirits is also revelation knowledge. It reveals! The word of wisdom reveals! They are not listed in 1 Cor. 13!!

You can not take one phrase...out of one verse...out of one chapter...out of one book out of the Bible and prove a doctrine. I have shown many scriptures throughout different thread showing that the Holy Spirit was given to believers to be manifestations for for the good of the church ...until the completion of the church..and is needed until He returns. THe church age is still here!!!

 

[Yeshua1]

We have discussed this and have disagreed many times! That which is complete is not the Bible!

Discerning of Spirits is also revelation knowledge. It reveals! The word of wisdom reveals! They are not listed in 1 Cor. 13!!

You can not take one phrase...out of one verse...out of one chapter...out of one book out of the Bible and prove a doctrine. I have shown many scriptures throughout different thread showing that the Holy Spirit was given to believers to be manifestations for for the good of the church ...until the completion of the church..and is needed until He returns. THe church age is still here!!!

Apostle john said that we ALL have the unction/anoiting from the Holy Spirit to be able to discern and know the truth, that He illuminates us all!

 

[awaken]

Apostle john said that we ALL have the unction/anoiting from the Holy Spirit to be able to discern and know the truth, that He illuminates us all!

1 Cor. 12 is plain when it says "Discerning of spirits."