Unconditional Eternal Security of Once Saved, Always Saved

[Winman]

That's why I said I am not referring to that kind of 'works'. What if the publican who was justified later became proud and started lifting himself up as the Pharisee? Than he would no longer be justified. The publican must continue to see himself in desperate need of Gods' mercy.

Jesus said the publican went down to his house justified, that means all his sins are forgiven. He went home a saved man.

What do you believe? Do you believe a man is justified and lost over and over again every time he sins? Every time he sins he repents and is justified again?

Have you ever sinned since you believed on Jesus? How many times did Adam and Eve have to sin to be lost?

 

[MorseOp]

I've already seen some refferances to eternal life here. Many try to say that we have been given eternal life and obviously something that is eternal cannot end. We do not have eternal life, we have the hope of eternal life. Look at it like this:

If I made a clock that was an eternal timepeice, could never stop working and gave it to you, you than have an eternal timepeice, but if you lose it, it continues to be an eternal timepiece, but you don't have it anymore. It does not lose it's eternal attribute.

I will post some verses later that support that one can lose salvation.

Thanks for your replies,
Wayne

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Greek in this passage is very simple to translate. Believers are viewed as having already experienced being called, being justified, and being glorified (i.e. eternal life). The believer does not just possess the hope of eternal life, he possesses eternal life itself. Paul's writing of it in the past tense is proof positive.

 

[MorseOp]

Additionally, 2 Cor. 5:17 states that Christians are new creatures.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

An organic and spiritual change takes place when a sinner becomes a believer. That change is wrought by God. The thought that a sinner, who could not change his own spiritual disposition from sin towards God, can somehow change his new disposition (from God back to a state of unbelief), turns God into a capricious deity.

 

[annsni]

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Greek in this passage is very simple to translate. Believers are viewed as having already experienced being called, being justified, and being glorified (i.e. eternal life). The believer does not just possess the hope of eternal life, he possesses eternal life itself. Paul's writing of it in the past tense is proof positive.

Additionally, 2 Cor. 5:17 states that Christians are new creatures.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

An organic and spiritual change takes place when a sinner becomes a believer. That change is wrought by God. The thought that a sinner, who could not change his own spiritual disposition from sin towards God, can somehow change his new disposition (from God back to a state of unbelief), turns God into a capricious deity.

What a glorious truth!!! :applause::godisgood:

 

[Bronconagurski]

I've already seen some refferances to eternal life here. Many try to say that we have been given eternal life and obviously something that is eternal cannot end. We do not have eternal life, we have the hope of eternal life. Look at it like this:

If I made a clock that was an eternal timepeice, could never stop working and gave it to you, you than have an eternal timepeice, but if you lose it, it continues to be an eternal timepiece, but you don't have it anymore. It does not lose it's eternal attribute.

I will post some verses later that support that one can lose salvation.

Thanks for your replies,
Wayne

One of the meanings of eternal is perpetual, which means no stopping place. You could lose a timepiece, but God can not lose you. Jesus said we are in His hand, and He is in the Father's hand. We are kept by the power of God. Is there a greater power I don't know about to make us lost again? People aren't lost again, they were never saved to start with.

 

[Brother Wayne]

I simply don't have the time to reply to all of your posts and I realize that it is useless to argue my point if your hearts are not open to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. I'm not a good persuasive writer either, but I would encourage all of you to read the Bible and study the words in the verses concerning this subject and come to your own conclusion.

Here is a collection of verses that don't support once saved, always saved.
Matthew 12:36-37 “But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned”.
Does the life we live presently affect our destiny?

Matthew 12:50 “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
What about those who don't do the will of God?

Matthew 15:1-6 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
Can we abide somewhere where we have not been? This is referring to a Christian that has been graphed into the vine who, later gave up and fell away. Hell fire is the destiny of this Christian who has not continued to abide in the vine.

Matthew 25:30 “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth”.
To get the full context read the whole parable starting in verse 14. From looking at the context around this parable we conlude that Jesus is speaking about five Christians; four of them were faithful to the end, but one wasn't.

Luke 9:62 “And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
Self-explanatory indeed. Let us not be as Lot's wife, who should have escaped destruction but looked back.

Luke 14:34-35 “Salt is good: but if the salt has lost its savor, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is it is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Can we as Christians lose our savor if we don't have any? No. Because the salt has lost its savor it is cast out ...where? Heaven, hardly!

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 8:13 “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
It simply says if we live after the flesh we will die; there is no indication given that it is contingent upon whether we were born-again at some point or not.

I Corinthians 3:17 “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
Remember, this first book to the Corinthians is addressed to the church at Corinth and 'all who are sanctified in Christ Jesus.' This couldn't apply to unbelievers, as their bodies do not contain the precious Holy Spirit in their temple.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”

Philippians 3:13-14 “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”
Paul didn't consider himself to have achieved yet, but he pressed toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God. This doesn't sound like unconditional eternal security.

Col. 1:23 “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

1 Timothy 6:12 “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.”

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:"

Hebrews 2:1 “Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.”

Hebrews 3:6 “But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”

Hebrews 3:12-13 “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin”
Here we see that not only must we take heed, but that sin, can adversely affect our faith. It is also worthy of note that the phrase "departing from the living God" is used. Just as I Timothy 4 stated, it is possible to depart from Him. He said he would never leave or forsake us, but we are creatures of free will and must make the decision whom we will serve.

Hebrews 10:25-29 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
How much clearer could it get?

Hebrews 10:38-39 “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them which draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

2 Peter 1:10-11 “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”

2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned again to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire”.

2 Peter 3:14 “Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot and blameless”.
Obviously this isn't reffering to a sinless life or there wouldn't be scriptures like 1 John 1:9 and 2:1. He is reffering to people who have been justied through faith in Jesus. Why be diligent? So we can be found in peace, without spot and blameless. What if we are not diligent and are not found in that condition?

2 Peter 3:16-17 “As also in some of his epistles, speaking in them of these things: in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore. beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness”.

1 John 2:3 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”

Notice the 'if'

Revelations 2:5 “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

Revelation 3:3-5 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels."

What about the individuals in that church who don't overcome?

So how do you support 'once saved, always saved' when looking at these other verses in the Bible?

 

[Brother Wayne]

One of the meanings of eternal is perpetual, which means no stopping place. You could lose a timepiece, but God can not lose you. Jesus said we are in His hand, and He is in the Father's hand. We are kept by the power of God. Is there a greater power I don't know about to make us lost again? People aren't lost again, they were never saved to start with.

You don't think you've read my second post.

 

[annsni]

So how do you support 'once saved, always saved' when looking at these other verses in the Bible?

Yep - when the context is understood, each Scripture is very clear. When Jesus saves, you are saved forever. Your life will reflect that and you will never be lost. To GOD be the glory, not me.

 

[MorseOp]

I simply don't have the time to reply to all of your posts and I realize that it is useless to argue my point if your hearts are not open to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

That is a pretty arrogant statement. Because people disagree with you they are not open to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit? Me thinks you started this thread with an agenda.

 

[Bronconagurski]

You don't think you've read my second post.

I read it, but, begging your pardon, you are wrong. If someone walks away from the belief of God, then they are apostate and never saved. If you have a correct understanding of Hebrews 6, you will understand that people act saved but really aren't. Take Judas, for example.

 

[Iconoclast]

You skipped verse 21 and 22 that clearly show that the promise was imputed to him for righteousness. What if we stop continueing to beleive (verse 24)?

I know this could sound like works salvation. We are saved through a continueing faith in the work of Jesus at Calvary, but if the faith stops salvation ceases as well. We had to reach out in faith in order to receive salvation, thus we must continue in faith in order that salvation is not withdrawn.

If you call this works...well, then I guess works must be in the Bible.

BW,

Welcome to BB. Hope you stay around for awhile and interact about the scriptures. It does not appear that you have clarity about what is involved in salvation ,and sanctification. You are focused on what you have been taught men "NEED " to do...more than what God has done in Christ.
Thank you for offering many fine verses however....that is a good starting point and progress can be made if we look to the scriptures and the God who gave them.:thumbsup::love2:

 

[OldRegular]

I simply don't have the time to reply to all of your posts and I realize that it is useless to argue my point if your hearts are not open to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. I'm not a good persuasive writer either, but I would encourage all of you to read the Bible and study the words in the verses concerning this subject and come to your own conclusion.

Perhaps if you are able to refute the following Scripture that I have posted on two previous occasions you might make a more convincing argument.

Romans 8:29, 30, KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where in the above Scripture are we told anything other than that those God chooses unto salvation He will call, justify, and glorify?

 

[WITBOTL]

Brother Wayne, one of the things that I believe you must confront if you are going to hold to a doctrine which allows for a saved person to lose his salvation is that the losing of it would be of such a finality that it would be impossible to get it back:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

What do you do then with the person who has lost his salvation in rebellion but then seeing the error of his ways returns in sorrow and repentance looking to be saved again. According to Hebrews 6 and 10 he is without hope.

Secondly, if you can lose your salvation through acts of sin, then define which acts of sin are the clinchers. Which acts do finally wipe out the grace of God? This becomes an impossible question to answer especially when you understand how significant an abomination the smallest of sins are. All sin is an assault on the holiness of God and all sin is tantamount to abject idolatry. God hates all sin with a holy wrath. He poured that wrath out on Jesus Christ and the sin covered by his atoning blood is total and complete. An important point in the doctrine of justification is that we are not just made righteous but we are declared righteous. So we are made not like Adam who could sin but by the declaration and imputation of Christ's righteousness we are made perfect who are not perfect. By suggesting that you can lose your salvation you are suggesting that the atonement covered a subset of your sin. In which case even while saved your atonement was ineffective and incomplete.

Finally, if you suggest that a loss of faith is how one might lose his salvation then upon the supposition that that is possible I would agree with you. However, where your theology falls is in thinking that your faith is the fallible product of an imperfect and all too human heart when it is instead a gift of grace imparted and sustained by grace.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condmeneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angles, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Phil 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


This is not to say that the doctrine of eternal security should provide any comfort to the man wallowing in the mire of sin. A life of sin should cause one who believes he is saved to question whether he truly is. "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid" If you are not constantly grieved by the sin in your life you should be worried. There is no comfort for your sin in a doctrine of eternal security.

The comfort is for the child of God living by faith. Struggling with sin perhaps but resting in the full assurance of the grace of God.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith

The "author" in this verse is archegos and it means leader in, originator of, and I think you might even find in it the idea of a surety. teleiotes, finisher, is the completor and perfector. This verse profoundly declares is our faith from beginning to end, from origin to perfection; this verse speaks of eternal security.

 

[psalms109:31]

2 Timothy 2:
10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Dealing With False Teachers

14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.

1 John 2:
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[Some manuscripts and you know all things] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in Him.


We should never doubt God that He will do what He said He will do, even if we are faithless in our self we remain in Jesus and encourage others to remain in Him.

A non-believers does not care about eternal security only those who believe and they should not doubt in God, unless there is something mentally wrong with that person and we are still to encourage them to remain in Christ. The only ones who care about the security of a non-believer is a love one who wants to see them saved but still the unbeliever doesn't care about eternal security.

Hebrews 3
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

I pray we are lead by the scriptures and not the words of men and their feelings.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Salvation is not lost by committing acts of sin but by willfully rejecting the Savior that the person once willfully accepted.

 

[WITBOTL]

for this to occur:

Christ must cease his constant intercession
the declaration of righteousness (justification) must be revoked
the atoning blood applied must be unapplied
grace must be revoked
the separation of sanctification must be undone
propitiation must be undone turning God's wrath back upon you
The place prepared for you in Jn 14 I supposed must be demolished
Christ's righteousness unimputed
election declared invalid
God's foreknowledge modified and improved upon
the redemption price returned
you must be dereconciled
you must then be unregenerated
and forgiveness revoked.

Look at all that Christ did that must be undone to lose your salvation. No, I think he did far too much by grace to revoke it by your weakness. You were unworthy of it from the get go, your belief did not make you worthy... grace is grace.

 

[psalms109:31]

for this to occur:

Christ must cease his constant intercession
the declaration of righteousness (justification) must be revoked
the atoning blood applied must be unapplied
grace must be revoked
the separation of sanctification must be undone
propitiation must be undone turning God's wrath back upon you
The place prepared for you in Jn 14 I supposed must be demolished
Christ's righteousness unimputed
election declared invalid
God's foreknowledge modified and improved upon
the redemption price returned
you must be dereconciled
you must then be unregenerated
and forgiveness revoked.

Look at all that Christ did that must be undone to lose your salvation. No, I think he did far too much by grace to revoke it by your weakness. You were unworthy of it from the get go, your belief did not make you worthy... grace is grace.

I do not think that they were in Him in the first place after coming to the knowledge of the truth, knowing what Christ did for them and just walk away? Could it be a seed that trials and tribulations just choked out?

1 John 2:
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[WITBOTL]

I do not think that they were in Him in the first place after coming to the knowledge of the truth, knowing what Christ did for them and just walk away! Could it be a seed that trials and tribulations just choked out?

1 John 2:
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Sadly too many have a false faith and a false security. If your faith is in a man other the the Lord Jesus, if you trust is in your church, a prayer, a priest, a good feeling, a particular day, if your faith is in your faith, or an ecstatic experience, or anything save the Lord Jesus Christ and his atoning work on the cross for your sins upon which you cling for refuge, mercy and grace then I think you need to turn your eyes upon Jesus, look to the lamb of God, put your trust in him and be saved. But, if your faith is in Jesus, then your salvation is steadfast and sure, not by your power, but by His.

 

[psalms109:31]

Sadly too many have a false faith and a false security. If your faith is in a man other the the Lord Jesus, if you trust is in your church, a prayer, a priest, a good feeling, a particular day, if your faith is in your faith, or an ecstatic experience, or anything save the Lord Jesus Christ and his atoning work on the cross for your sins upon which you cling for refuge, mercy and grace then I think you need to turn your eyes upon Jesus, look to the lamb of God, put your trust in him and be saved. But, if your faith is in Jesus, then your salvation is steadfast and sure, not by your power, but by His.

Nice!! :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[Brother Wayne]

Perhaps if you are able to refute the following Scripture that I have posted on two previous occasions you might make a more convincing argument.

I haven't studied that verse/subject much yet, but let me say this; if this verse is saying that some people are chosen to be saved, and some simply are not, then these verses contradict many other scriptures such as the ones below. Therefore I am uncertain at this point as to the exact intent of these two verses.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 2:10-12 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

1 John 1:5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

From these verses and many others I conclude that mans' fate or furtune is not predestined. If I come to any further understanding of Romans 8:29-30 I will share it.