Unconditional Eternal Security of Once Saved, Always Saved

[OldRegular]

I haven't studied that verse/subject much yet, but let me say this; if this verse is saying that some people are chosen to be saved, and some simply are not, then these verses contradict many other scriptures such as the ones below. Therefore I am uncertain at this point as to the exact intent of these two verses.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 2:10-12 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

1 John 1:5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

From these verses and many others I conclude that mans' fate or furtune is not predestined. If I come to any further understanding of Romans 8:29-30 I will share it.

You are shuffling your feet. The OP is not about election but the Security of the Believer. Since you are addressing the Scriptural teachings of the Security of the Believer please explain how the following Scripture either supports or contradicts your assertion! Scripture, properly understood, does not contradict itself so there should be no problem!

Romans 8:29, 30, KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Darrell C]

2 Peter 3:14 “Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot and blameless”.
Obviously this isn't reffering to a sinless life or there wouldn't be scriptures like 1 John 1:9 and 2:1. He is reffering to people who have been justied through faith in Jesus. Why be diligent? So we can be found in peace, without spot and blameless. What if we are not diligent and are not found in that condition?

I notice v.15 is skipped, let's put that back in there:



2 Peter 3:14-17

King James Version (KJV)


14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;


Probably a reference to the fact that the Lord will finish the work He has begun in us unto the Day of Christ.


16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


And it is true that in every epistle Paul mentions the eternality of salvation.

Those who deny that "the longsuffering of the Lord is salvation" are described as those "that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction"


17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


"Fall from their own steadfastness," not salvation. This has in view the temporal efforts of believers, who can fall into sin, and be led away from an exemplary life in Christ to one which can lead to judgment in this life, such as sickness and death.

2 Peter 3:16-17 “As also in some of his epistles, speaking in them of these things: in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore. beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness”.

See above.

1 John 2:3 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”

Notice the 'if'

Duly noted, now, what commandments are in view?

For the Judaizer, it is the Law. For those that blur the Covenants, it is amixture of the Law, the teaching of Christ, and the revelation of the New Testament.

What say you?

Revelations 2:5 “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

I for one do not view the epistles to the Seven Churches without considering that it is primarily a call to salvation given.

The key is understanding what the Lord means by "overcoming." I view this as synonymous with salvation itself.

Revelation 3:3-5 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels."

What about the individuals in that church who don't overcome?

And here I will try to better expain my view of overcoming, and will begin with the Lord coming upon them as a thief:



1 Thessalonians 5

King James Version (KJV)


5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Unless we wish to take the position that Apul and the Lord contradict each other, we can see that the Lord will not come upon the Church...as a thief. And yes, I am a Pre-Tribulational believer, lol. And in view I believe we see the same event being spoken of, which is the Return of Christ.


Revelation 3

King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


We see here that those that overcome will never be blotted from the Book of Life. That presents a problem for those that teach loss of salvation in that if one overcomes and will never be blotted out, then we establish that overcoming is synonymous with eternal salvation.

So let's look at what John says elsewhere about overcoming:




1 John 5

King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


Proposal 1: those that truly believe that Jesus is the Christ (and all that entails)...is born of God, and this is clearly a reference to the New Birth.


2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.


Proposal 2: our love for one another is an evidence of the fact we are born again Children of God, which is the command of Christ, that we "love one another."


3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


Proposal 3: the commandments of God are not grievous, unlike the testimony of Peter concerning the commandments found in the Law, which he states...



Acts 15:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?



4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


Proposals 4 & 5: those that are born again have overcome, and if that is true, then those in Sardis that are addressed...have not.

Again we understand that the word of God is a two-edged sword, comforting and convicting alike. It is for the unbeliever, for by it he will be saved; it is for the believer, for by it he will be conformed to the image of Christ as the Holy Spirit ministers to him.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Proposals 6 & 7: the New Birth comes about when one believes in Christ to the saving of the soul, whereby he is distanced from those who draw back unto perdition because they did not draw near with a true heart.

Last proposal: while a general acceptance that the Seven Churches contain those that are saved, there is no denying that the call to overcome is not a call to perform good works (such as one cannot of himself return to his first love in human effort and expect to be saved by that human effort) but a warning of salvation and certain judgment.

So how do you support 'once saved, always saved' when looking at these other verses in the Bible?

It is a matter of context and perspective. Most verses used to teach loss of salvation are pulled out of their context and the context is never given to the audience. Hebrews 10:26 is a prime example, and a verse that has troubled more than a few saints.

Okay, sorry for the length. Hope you keep in mind that while I take a different position than you, I can understand how this position is held. But, I do believe that if you can honestly consider that perhaps context is lost when these verses are used to deny OSAS, and that contradiction is found when this view is taken, then perhaps you might see this in a different perspective.

Most who teach loss of salvation do not consider that they themselves might be the ones in error, and again, I understand that too. So I hope that in all of this there is something that might give you pause, and may cause you to revel in the truth you know you hold in your heart which is...When the Lord saves, He does not do so lightly. And when He saves, He has already considered the sins you might commit after that day when you repented of your sin and asked Him for forgiveness, that He might apply the work of the Cross on your behalf, as you understood that there was no offering that could completely bring forgiveness, nor take away your sin.

As I said, I will treat Hebrews separately from this response, starting with Hebrews 10:26.

I am really out of time, so this will be brief.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello again, brother Wayne, this is something I did recently on another forum. I usually like to personally respond to all posts but this will, I think, suffice concerning this passage.


Hebrews 10:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This seems to be clear, if we wilfully sin there is no more sacrifice for sin, right?

Well, that is 100% correct, unless...you think this is talking about sins committed after salvation. At first that is going to sound contradictory, but this is the problem with pulling a single verse out of it's context. Some verses we can do that with, such as John 3:16, but some lose their intent when taken by themselves. So what We have to do is remember a very simple trick. Get ready, you might want to write this down, are you ready...?

Just back up.

Now I know that might seem a great task, but here it is again: just back up, and see what leads up to this verse.

So here we go, and I am going to quickly run through this, and leave it open for critique.



Hebrews 10
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Wow, were backing up a long way (and I know those that are use to my posts are probably thinking...this is going to be a long one. lol, We'll see). To be honest, where we ought to start is Hebrews 1:1-2, but, for this particular verse, Hebrews 10:1-4 will do.

In the first four verses we have a clear contrast concerning the Levitical Practice under the First Covenant and the sacrifice of Christ. In our key verse, Hebrews 10:26 in view is sacrifice for sin. Don't let this point escape you as it does so many. First ask yourself....do Christians need to sacrifice when they sin after salvation? The discerning reader that has long been stumped by this intriguing verse can probably stop reading this just in giving that consideration. Of course there is no sacrifice made for the sinning Christian, and in fact, the sacrifice of the Christian...keeps him/her from sin. We have a reversal between the ministries of the two Covenants: under the First, one sinned and then offered sacrifice; under the New, we sacrifice (forego and forsake sin) first and avoid sin, and in this way see the taking away of sin in our lives.

Next thing we will consider in this section is that we are told that the sacrifices of the First, or Old Covenant, or, the Covenant of Law, or, the Mosaic Covenant...could not take away sin. The corollary is that the Sacrifice of Christ...can and does. It is because of this that we...

1) Have the substantial, not the "shadow." In Hebrews 9 concerning the First Covenant and it's practices, another term is used for the Law, highlighted here:

Hebrews 9:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Figure is...


3850. parabole par-ab-ol-ay' from 3846; a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage:--comparison, figure, parable, proverb.


Of the 50 times this word is used, 46 of those times it is translated "parable." Hebrews makes it a point to point out the temporary nature of the First Covenant, quite unlike other Covenants such as the Noahic, Abrahamic, Davidic, and least of not all, to be sure...the New Covenant.


2) are made perfect (properly complete) v.1;

3) are not required to offer sacrifice: vv. 1-2;

4) are ceansed in our conscience concerning atonement for sin, understanding that Christ'a sacrifice, as the writer will point out shortly...is the Once offered complete sacrifice, needing nothing added to it: v.3;

5) have had (the penalty of) our sins taken away: v.4.


Why is it important to understand this? Because when we get to Hebrews 10:26 we have to understand the exhortation of the writer to his audience to go on unto perfection (the New Covenant, and salvation in Christ). In order for v.26 to mean that there is no more sacrifice for sin we have to either understand that those warned are those that have rejected the Once offered sacrifice for sin, or that the sacrifice of Christ is continually, in figure, repeated to atone for sins committed by the believer. Only the former fits the context because we are told in this section that the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins or make perfect (complete), and as we progress toward our key verse we will see that the believer has been not only sanctified by the blood of Christ but has forever been perfected (made complete).

Okay, there's the intro...

Just kidding.



Again, sorry for the copy and paste, but I am out of time and hate to leave anything in a post unanswered.

Be back in a bit with the next post.

 

[Darrell C]

This next section again has in view the sacrifice of Christ. Also in view is the contrast between how God views the First and New Covenants.


5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


As I said this is not meant to be an in-depth study of this passage, so I will just point out the contrast between the Covenants in vv. 8-9.

In v. 8 we can see that the sacrifice and offering of the Law is clearly in view, to which the Lord "had no pleasure in."

In v. 9 we see "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

Folks, "He takes away the First Covenant that He might establish the Second (New) Covenant. Called the "First" because while Israel is heir to the Abrahamic Covenant it was not made with them. The Covenant of Law, the First Covenant...was. And it was the first.

So far in this chapter we have a consistent theme concerning the Law, the New Covenant, and a special interest in sacrifice.

We have not departed from what will be very important when we arrive at Hebrews 10:26.


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

In my estimation this is one of the most significant verses in all of scripture. Another is found in v.14.

Sanctification speaks of a setting apart and usually has a connotation of "for holy purposes." Here I think it is safe to say that we can say we are set apart, separated from the world unto God. See Strong's definition and usage.

The "will" referred to here is none other than the will of God. A clear statement to the sovereignty of God in salvation, we are told that we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once (for all). "For all" is an insertion, so we are sanctified by the sacrifice of Christ...once.



11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;



Again it is pointed out that the sacrifices of the law were continual because they could not take away sins. This has, when we study scripture, a two-fold meaning to it: 1) it takes away the penalty of SIN; 2) His sacrifice for sin has the power to take away sins in the lives of believers. But the first is in view here.

We have all heard it preached many times, probably, how the Levitical Priests did not sit down, because while they were administering their duties, their work was never done. Christ, on the other hand, offered one sacrifice, and that was all that was necessary to atone for sin and allow God to deem those that turned to Him in faith just.


13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.


In other words, folks, the verdict is in, it is simply the time for sentences to be imposed to come.


14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



As I said, this I consider to be one of the most important verses for the believer to understand. It is ironic that two passages that teach salvation is a one-time event based upon a one-time sacrifice and is eternal...is used to teach loss of salvation. For some it is a matter of not doing proper study, but clinging to a sermon that tickled the legalistic streak that most of us have. Sometimes it is hard to accept that God could forgive us of sin, for we are yet in unredeemed flesh, we still sin at times, and the Spirit of God within us convicts us of that sin that we might repent and put away the deeds of the flesh.

For by one offering. This refers to the sacrifice of Christ, called the offering of the body of Jesus Christ in Hebrews 10:10, the body which God prepared that the Son of God should offer Himself up for a sin offering (Hebrews 10:5).

He hath perfected forever.

"Perfected" means "completed," basically, though that is like saying the ocean has water. There is a wealth in this word, and when we can grasp what the writer is saying here, we will see that a L.O.S.T. is incompatible with the Spirit of God moved the writer to tell us. When we read that Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith, it means that He is the originator and completer of our faith. See here for the Strong's entry of "perfected" in Hebrews 10:14.

Them that are sanctified.

If we back up to v.10, we see that those that are sanctified are sanctified once, and here, those that are sanctified are perfected...forever. The connotation of "continuous" can be seen here, but context as well as the theme of completion in this book make it clear that the completion (which in itself helps us interpret this, as we could not be made complete "continually") afforded by the sacrifice of Christ is indeed...for ever.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Hebrews 10:26

Okay, picking back up in v. 15, we carry on with seeking to place Hebrews 10:26 in it's proper context. Hopefully at this point it is apparent that in view are the First and New Covenants and in particular how both address sin and the results of this for the believer/worshipper.


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.



The NKJV has in italics in v.17 "then He adds" at the beginning of the verse, which I think is an acceptale insertion. What comes to mind here is that the writer is saying, "Don't just take my word for it! God the Holy Spirit spoke of this Covenant long ago, so take a look again at what He said, and understand that this is what I am speaking about."

Again he wants to make it clear that the contrast between the two Covenants is being made, compared to each other.


18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


"Remission" means forgiveness. If given a modern understanding as we have concerning cancer, where remission means a slowing or speaks of the disease's response to treatment, we might make an error in understanding what is said here. The biblical definition and usage speaks of release from a condition such as bondage or imprisonment whereas our modern definition leaves a wide array of meaning, but usually a subsiding only, rather than release.

Having said that, take careful note to the latter part of this verse: there is no more offering for sin. What he is saying is that when forgiveness is given according to the very promise of God, there is no more offering for sin. Now what is odd is that most can read this verse and put two an two together without confusing the intent but when we read...

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


...it is immediately given another underlying context, that being that if someone continues to sin after salvation, they will be lost.

What has to be determnined is what sin is in view in v.26, then we can properly understand what the Holy Spirit is saying.

Let me again at this time present another similar statement in this passage:


Hebrews 10 (NASB)
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.


We have no less than three distinct statements concerning "no more sacrifice." If we keep this in context the importance of this to the writer helps us to actually keep the context.

(note-I will change the color of verses that are cross references, and periodically you will see [NASB] beside the header to allow for this cr. as well)

Now all we have to do is determine what he means. In vv. 1-2 the point is made that if the offerings for sin had completed the process for which they were offered...there would not have been further offering.


In v.18 where we see forgiveness under the perfection (or completion) of the New Covenant ratified by the blood of Christ...there is no further offering needed.

And in v.26 we will see that because of certain sin...there is no more offering of sin. And as we go through the remaining verses before arriving at v.26, we will see what that sin is.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Hebrews 10:26

Hebrews 10

King James Version

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,


Again, what is the "Holiest?"

Seeing that the New Covenant is in view, and that the "Holiest of all" under the First Covenant was but a shadow of the better things, the obvious conclusion is that this is a reference to Heaven, of coming into the presence of God Himself, not in shadow, but in reality. Remember that entrance to God under the Law was permissable once a year, for the High Priest only [Hebrews 9:7-8 and Hebrews 9:7-8 (NASB)]. Under the New Covenant, the veil has been rent in two and entrance to God, which was only pictured under the Law, is made possible through the blood of Christ.

And that is precisely what our writer tells us in the next verse:


20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


By a new and living way. How would we describe the sacrifices found in the First Covenant? It would not be like the sacrifice of Christ, for here we are told that He was killed yet lives. The sacrifices offered up under the law were killed never to live again. But, because Christ died and rose there will never again be the need to offer up sacrifice for sin again.

Which He hath consecrated for us. The word "consecrated" is used in Hebrews 9:18 (and here, only):


Hebrews 9:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.


The New Covenant was ratified by the blood (death) of Jesus Christ. It is important to keep in mind that the term "blood" is euphemistic of "death." In 10:20 we see one of the references to the "body" of Christ, which I believe speaks to the manifestation of God in the flesh, meaning, in this verse there is reference not just to His death, but like we saw in Hebrews 10:5, a reference to the Son taking on the body which prepared for Him of God in the womb of Mary.


...through the veil: This is an amazing statement if we take the time to meditate on it's significance: under the First Covenant entrance to God was for the High Priest alone once a year, signifying man's separation from God due to sin, and his utter inability to approach God save in picture (shadow) only. The only way this was ever made possible was through that which has been prophecied starting in Genesis 3:15 and promised throughout the Old Testament, and that is...through Christ.

The veil, then, is the body of Christ. In other words, the Law pictured the Son of God inhabiting a human body, and that this was the menas of entrance to God. We see the correlation between the veil of the "tabernacle" (the Temple at the time of Christ's death) and the rending of the body of Christ, which was torn at the hands of wicked men. One point of interest to consider is why did the writer use the tabernacle, why did he not reference the Temple? I think this is because the Tabernacle was solely for the Hebrew people and the pattern was given directly to Moses by God, whereas the Temple was visited by Gentiles, who were free to convert thugh they did not have the access that Jews did.


...that is to say, his flesh. Again in view I believe that implied is both the incarnation as well as His death. Just as we partake of Communion and commemorate the death of Christ, not giving significance to one over the other, but taking the two as a whole to represent Christ's death, it is good to see that here. We are told that the blood of Christ ratified the New Covenant:



Hebrews 9:17-18

King James Version (KJV)

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.


Now let's look quickly at a verse that speaks of the blood and see if we can divorce the blood from death:



Hebrews 9:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.



Under the Law it was established that forgiveness of sin was possible only through...death. What this represents is the fact that all are guilty and since the Garden we see a consistent theme of vicarious death. In other words, because all are guilty of death, a death is necessary for forgiveness of that guilt. This was true of not just the individual's SIN (the inherent sin nature)but individual sins. The shadow of remission of sins both before and under the Law was was accomplished by an animal dying in the place of the sinner. This was given until the time when the Last sacrifice, the Once-Offered forever efficacious sacrifice of Christ.

As we have seen in chapter Ten the writer is trying to get across that the sacrifices of the Law, while a picture, a shadow, of Christ's death, gave temporary remission of sin, Christ's sacrifice ended the need for them to be offered because the sacrifice of Christ, to which they pre-figured, was able to bring forgiveness that need not be offered again for it was forever able to bring forgiveness.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Hebrews 10:26

Okay, almost at our target destination, and I want you to pay careful attention to what is said here. To recap, the writer has been making a case to his Hebrew brethren that they are to go on unto perfection (Hebrews 6:1) which is salvation in Christ, and leave the picture of Christ found in the Law. In other words, the exhortation is to leave the shadow of the First Covenant and to turn to God in faith directed at and in the Mediator of the New Covenant.

What will precede our key verse is a warning for genuine faith and salvation.


Hebrews 10

King James Version

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.



Not much commentary needed here, we can all understand what it means when he says "draw near with a true heart." The opposite of this would be a heart of unbelief which is exampled in Israel in the wilderness.

Revisit the beginning of this chapter where they are asked...



2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.



...which is immediately answered by "If it had made them perfect/complete there would have been no more conscience of sins."



23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised



The apostate may have at one timme been the most vocal of "believers," expressing a heartfelt faith in Christ, but, if they at some point turn away they are revealed as a professor, not a confessor. Perseverance is one of the sure signs of genuine faith.


24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:



True faith will result in a continuing fellowship and seeking of edification of the Body.



25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


And I will have to be careful here, as it may step on the toes of those that preach this verse as a means of encouraging faithful Church attendance, which is one of the reasons this passage is more easily misconstrued to teach loss of salvation.

This is not an exhortation to faithful Church attendance, though it is true that the implication can be derived from it: this is an exhortation not to forsake faith in Christ, foremost. The cultural aspects of this statement have in view the ramifications of the consequences for those among the Hebrews that embraced Christ. It was not something that in their day was without consequence. There was a division among Jews and those that rejected Christ viewed those that embraced Christ to be infidels, and exclusion from Levitical Practice was a very real consequence, which would have been very hard for the average Jew who had been born and bred inder the Law to suffer. Embrace Christ...be expelled from the society one was accustomed to, basically.

For those that had a casual acceptance of Christ it would have been very easy to embrace it at first but when persecution arose it was just as easy to forsake it. It may well be that when they understood what Christ brought about they found that they did not, after all, believe that Christ was the Messiah.


26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


Now, a few things to keep in mind concerning our key verse:

1) the verses immediately preceding are clearly exhortations not to abandon Christ and to be genuine in embracing Christ.

2) those addressed are not ignorant of the "knowledge of the truth," they have received it, but this is not to be taken as that they have received Christ Himself, or that knowledge of the truth is comparable to salvation.

3) If they do leave the faith, this is the sin in view: what this means is that they are turning away from the only sacrifice that can bring salvation. This is why there is "no more sacrifice for sin." In view for the Hebrew brethren is that if they turn away from the sacrifice of Christ, what would we expect they would return to?

...the Law, which would be of no benefit for them. For there remaineth no more sacrifice than that which Christ offered once. To return to the Law and offer up sacrifice for sin under that economy was a rejection of the sacrifice of Christ and in picture, just like it was before He died, they again crucify Christ.


Okay, it would be good to look at the verses that follow, but I am out of time for today, so I will end there and leave it open for comment or critique, I am okay with both, lol.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Hebrews 10:26

Just wanted to quickly submit a few thoughts concerning the verses following our key verse, Hebrews 10:26.


Hebrews 10:27-29

King James Version (KJV)


27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


We are told if we "sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." As suggested, rather than speaking of the individual sins which will surely happen to the new convert and even to the more mature saint because of the weakness of flesh (that we are still in unredeemed flesh), what is in view is the specific sin of turning away fro Christ meaning one rejects that He is the Messiah and that His sacrifice alone can save, rather than the atonement found in the sacrificial system of the Levitical Economy.

The New Covenant is that which is to be turned to, the Old, or First Covenant (and it's services) to be left.



Hebrews 10:27-29

King James Version (KJV)


27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


We see the First Covenant referred to vv. 27-28, and the New in v.29, and a few points to consider would be:

1) while judgment was sure and swift according to the First, it is far worse for one to receive the knowledge of the truth and turn away from it. Punishment is worse because until one fully understands the Gospel there is still a better hope for them. But, to hear, understand, and reject Christ...there is indeed no more sacrifice that will be of benefit.

2) Not just unbelief is in view, but a despising is seen here in the phrase "who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing."

Receiving "the knowledge of the truth" does not preclude salvation, but rather it is an intellectual understanding that is correct. Many an atheist and those that follow false doctrine understand perfectly the simplistic beauty unambiguous knowledge that Christ is said to be the prophesied Messiah and that He died for the sin of the world, yet reject that in favor of a different belief, whether it be that Christ was just a "good man" among many or that there is for man a need to follow a legalistic path and this path coupled with the work of Christ will "help" man get to Heaven.

Then we have those that do accept this knowledge after a shallow fashion yet then disregard it due to outside conditions which are not battled against by the "inside condition" which is salvation, which leads the saved to persevere despite tribulation.

To turn back to the First (and this is what in view and this is clear in the context) is to despise Christ.



...and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified.


Wherewith WHO was sanctified? Since scripture is clear that salvation is eternal from the moment it is given, the WHO must of course be Christ. This stands to reason as it is this very truth which stands at the forefront concerning the Person of Christ. The New Covenant, ratified by the blood of Christ, is dismissed if the very blood by which it was ratified is dismissed. This is to say that Christ did not die for the sin of man, therefore a return to the Covenant which they "know" to be a valid system given by God is logical for them.

We could break this verse down like this:


29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy,


who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,


an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


We can also see this like this:



29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


3) the witness of the First Covenant was temporal and one could be found guilty of transgression by two or three witnesses among men. But the witness of the Holy Spirit is the only witness that can judge the hearts of men under the New. We are not given license to stand in judgment of the salvation of another, to state one is or is not saved. We can judge for ourselves based upon their word and deed but no amount of human witness (as under the Law) can do this. Only God can pronounce sentence for rejection of Christ and only He knows truly yth condition of the soul. We oftentimes may be guilty of compounding a situation by making such judgment. Is that atheist that says he has rejected Christ and no longer believes...telling the truth? Or is he, like a child, merely venting malicious words due to deep hurt and anguish?

And for the babe in Christ, we can make the parallel between childish understanding and childish actions, words, and deeds.

How true this has been in my own walk with the Lord.


4) There is but one way that one both receives the knowledge of truth as well as is given the ability to turn to God in repentance to ask for mercy, and that is through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. And it is He that one must reject directly when one rejects Christ.



29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Hath done despite translates enybrizo, used once in the New Testament, and that here. It could be viewed as "being insolent to," the implication...to insult. There is no greater insult to the very One trying to save you than to insult Him. Envision someone extending a hand to one hanging over a cliff and the one hanging looking up and saying "I do not need your help, and besides...your hand has dirt on it! You expect me to grab it?"

This is what is in view: God is not only extending His hand but has in fact grasped the hand of the one hanging, and this person has wrested his hand out of that grasp thereby sealing his fate. God is merciful even to the vilest of offenders, and does not wait for man to "come toi his senses" and realize he is hanging on a cliff, but makes man aware of the fact that he is hanging over the Cliff. This is the ministry of the Spirit of God in the world, to convict of sin, righteouness, and judgment. He gives the blind man the ability to see his condition and by His power also gives Him the capacity to believe and repent of his condition.

Every Christian sins after salvation, this is fact, as we mature in Christ we are able to sin less, but we will not, I believe, ever in this body be sinless. So to keep Hebrews 10:26 (NASB) in it's proper context, part of understanding that is seeing what is in view here. And what is in view, keeping the entire context of the Book of Hebrews intact, are those of Hebrew culture rejecting Christ and the New Covenant despite the urgings of the Holy Spirit and viewing the sacrifice of Christ as ineffective causing them to return to the sacrificial system of the First Covenant.

Okay, just a few comments to stir up conversation.

Keep in mind that this thread is designed to field the passages that are sometimes seem vague and are used as Loss of Salvation Teachings. I do believe that I may start a section devoted to this in the near future, when time allows, as this is one area where we need to be ready to give an answer, not just for those teaching such doctrine, but that we ourselves have a stable foundation for our belief in the security of the believer and the assurance that we have in Christ.

Okay, brother Wayne, hope this will suffice. It may seem long but it really is not. Much more could be said of this passage and these posts were taken from another forum and meant only to be a run-through, and I tried to keep it brief. But as with many of the passages used to teach loss of salvation, it is impossible to properly understand them without having a background laid first. We do this with the whoel counsel, of course, finding the balance where we do not have contradiction, but consistency concerning the plan of redemption.

Okay, I enjoyed it, hope I haven't "posted your ears off," lol.

God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Just wanted to quickly submit a few thoughts concerning the verses following our key verse, Hebrews 10:26.


Hebrews 10:27-29

King James Version (KJV)


27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


We are told if we "sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." As suggested, rather than speaking of the individual sins which will surely happen to the new convert and even to the more mature saint because of the weakness of flesh (that we are still in unredeemed flesh), what is in view is the specific sin of turning away fro Christ meaning one rejects that He is the Messiah and that His sacrifice alone can save, rather than the atonement found in the sacrificial system of the Levitical Economy.

The New Covenant is that which is to be turned to, the Old, or First Covenant (and it's services) to be left.



Hebrews 10:27-29

King James Version (KJV)


27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


We see the First Covenant referred to vv. 27-28, and the New in v.29, and a few points to consider would be:

1) while judgment was sure and swift according to the First, it is far worse for one to receive the knowledge of the truth and turn away from it. Punishment is worse because until one fully understands the Gospel there is still a better hope for them. But, to hear, understand, and reject Christ...there is indeed no more sacrifice that will be of benefit.

2) Not just unbelief is in view, but a despising is seen here in the phrase "who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing."

Receiving "the knowledge of the truth" does not preclude salvation, but rather it is an intellectual understanding that is correct. Many an atheist and those that follow false doctrine understand perfectly the simplistic beauty unambiguous knowledge that Christ is said to be the prophesied Messiah and that He died for the sin of the world, yet reject that in favor of a different belief, whether it be that Christ was just a "good man" among many or that there is for man a need to follow a legalistic path and this path coupled with the work of Christ will "help" man get to Heaven.

Then we have those that do accept this knowledge after a shallow fashion yet then disregard it due to outside conditions which are not battled against by the "inside condition" which is salvation, which leads the saved to persevere despite tribulation.

To turn back to the First (and this is what in view and this is clear in the context) is to despise Christ.



...and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified.


Wherewith WHO was sanctified? Since scripture is clear that salvation is eternal from the moment it is given, the WHO must of course be Christ. This stands to reason as it is this very truth which stands at the forefront concerning the Person of Christ. The New Covenant, ratified by the blood of Christ, is dismissed if the very blood by which it was ratified is dismissed. This is to say that Christ did not die for the sin of man, therefore a return to the Covenant which they "know" to be a valid system given by God is logical for them.

We could break this verse down like this:


29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy,


who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,


an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


We can also see this like this:



29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


3) the witness of the First Covenant was temporal and one could be found guilty of transgression by two or three witnesses among men. But the witness of the Holy Spirit is the only witness that can judge the hearts of men under the New. We are not given license to stand in judgment of the salvation of another, to state one is or is not saved. We can judge for ourselves based upon their word and deed but no amount of human witness (as under the Law) can do this. Only God can pronounce sentence for rejection of Christ and only He knows truly yth condition of the soul. We oftentimes may be guilty of compounding a situation by making such judgment. Is that atheist that says he has rejected Christ and no longer believes...telling the truth? Or is he, like a child, merely venting malicious words due to deep hurt and anguish?

And for the babe in Christ, we can make the parallel between childish understanding and childish actions, words, and deeds.

How true this has been in my own walk with the Lord.


4) There is but one way that one both receives the knowledge of truth as well as is given the ability to turn to God in repentance to ask for mercy, and that is through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. And it is He that one must reject directly when one rejects Christ.



29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Hath done despite translates enybrizo, used once in the New Testament, and that here. It could be viewed as "being insolent to," the implication...to insult. There is no greater insult to the very One trying to save you than to insult Him. Envision someone extending a hand to one hanging over a cliff and the one hanging looking up and saying "I do not need your help, and besides...your hand has dirt on it! You expect me to grab it?"

This is what is in view: God is not only extending His hand but has in fact grasped the hand of the one hanging, and this person has wrested his hand out of that grasp thereby sealing his fate. God is merciful even to the vilest of offenders, and does not wait for man to "come toi his senses" and realize he is hanging on a cliff, but makes man aware of the fact that he is hanging over the Cliff. This is the ministry of the Spirit of God in the world, to convict of sin, righteouness, and judgment. He gives the blind man the ability to see his condition and by His power also gives Him the capacity to believe and repent of his condition.

Every Christian sins after salvation, this is fact, as we mature in Christ we are able to sin less, but we will not, I believe, ever in this body be sinless. So to keep Hebrews 10:26 (NASB) in it's proper context, part of understanding that is seeing what is in view here. And what is in view, keeping the entire context of the Book of Hebrews intact, are those of Hebrew culture rejecting Christ and the New Covenant despite the urgings of the Holy Spirit and viewing the sacrifice of Christ as ineffective causing them to return to the sacrificial system of the First Covenant.

Okay, just a few comments to stir up conversation.

Keep in mind that this thread is designed to field the passages that are sometimes seem vague and are used as Loss of Salvation Teachings. I do believe that I may start a section devoted to this in the near future, when time allows, as this is one area where we need to be ready to give an answer, not just for those teaching such doctrine, but that we ourselves have a stable foundation for our belief in the security of the believer and the assurance that we have in Christ.

Okay, brother Wayne, hope this will suffice. It may seem long but it really is not. Much more could be said of this passage and these posts were taken from another forum and meant only to be a run-through, and I tried to keep it brief. But as with many of the passages used to teach loss of salvation, it is impossible to properly understand them without having a background laid first. We do this with the whoel counsel, of course, finding the balance where we do not have contradiction, but consistency concerning the plan of redemption.

Okay, I enjoyed it, hope I haven't "posted your ears off," lol.

God bless.

hebrews wriiten to support to jewish believers that yeshua as messiah superior to Moses/OT preiesthood etc, and warning to them that IF one rejects the cross of christ as sacrifice for sins, NONE can be saved, as NO salvation under old system now!


Hebrews 6 and 10 suppot that real Christians will show and evidence that, while mre pretenders will fall abck to old ways and stay lost!

 

[Brother Wayne]

Darrell, to whom are you concluding the book of Hebrews to be written, believers or unbelievers?

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell, to whom are you concluding the book of Hebrews to be written, believers or unbelievers?

Doing this from my phone, brother Wayne,so it will be a short one, lol

It was written to Hebrew believers, but with the possibilty just as any preacher would consider,that there would be nominal believers among them.

Today, it is impossible to return to Levitical practice,which is what the writer addresses in our key verse (10:26).

In chapter 3, the writer uses the wilderness as a prime example of one primary thing...unbelief. When we get to ch.10, he is giving the "how" of their actions that betray an unbelieving heart. Namely, returning to the sacrifices of the Law, which could make perfect (complete), as His does.

There is application for the modern believer, but the aspects of this book, if not held in view, such as the original audience growing up in under the Law (and actually being able to once again offer sacrifice under the Law) is disastrous and shows in our interpretive efforts. For this cause we see a contradiction between OSAS and LOST (loss of salvation teachings).

Only one view is correct, and before we teach either, we should be able to make sure we ourselves are not causing contradiction in the hearts of those we seek to evangelize. And LOSTs do exactly that, though they cater to the religious and legalistic streak I think we all have in us, lol.

Okay, sorry for a somewhat limited response, but glad for yours.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

hebrews wriiten to support to jewish believers that yeshua as messiah superior to Moses/OT preiesthood etc, and warning to them that IF one rejects the cross of christ as sacrifice for sins, NONE can be saved, as NO salvation under old system now!


Hebrews 6 and 10 suppot that real Christians will show and evidence that, while mre pretenders will fall abck to old ways and stay lost!

I would agree entirely concerning ch.10, buy ch.6 deals more with a direct questioning of the doctrine they understand. They are said to be infantile in their understanding, and the implication is that they have not fully understood or embraced exactly what Christ's coming meant in regards to the Law.

The writer does equate the Gospel with the rain, that it falls upon the entire earth, the fruit, though, has different results.

In short, the exhortation (and warning) is to leave the first principles ( the ABCs concerning Christ) and to progress to perfection (the realization, or, Christ having come and accomplished what was foretold as opposed to still clinging to Judaism). In other words...their salvation itself is challenged.

On my phone so that is as much as I can take of this ridiculously small keyboard, lol.

God bless

 

[Brother Wayne]

The two that believed in loss of salvation had no close association with the apostles, having come of age more than 75 years after John's death.

Don't take my word for what I say, if you what to know what the early Christians believed get the Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs here. You will find as did many others who read the beliefs of the early Christians, that none of the early church Christians believed the theory you hold. There was a group of people at that time that did hold this view and those were the Gnostics. The early Christians called these people heretics in their references to them and their beliefs.

Again, do your own research if you want to know it from a more reliable source than I.

 

[Darrell C]

Doing this from my phone, brother Wayne,so it will be a short one, lol

It was written to Hebrew believers, but with the possibilty just as any preacher would consider,that there would be nominal believers among them.

Today, it is impossible to return to Levitical practice,which is what the writer addresses in our key verse (10:26).

In chapter 3, the writer uses the wilderness as a prime example of one primary thing...unbelief. When we get to ch.10, he is giving the "how" of their actions that betray an unbelieving heart. Namely, returning to the sacrifices of the Law, which could make perfect (complete), as His does.

There is application for the modern believer, but the aspects of this book, if not held in view, such as the original audience growing up in under the Law (and actually being able to once again offer sacrifice under the Law) is disastrous and shows in our interpretive efforts. For this cause we see a contradiction between OSAS and LOST (loss of salvation teachings).

Only one view is correct, and before we teach either, we should be able to make sure we ourselves are not causing contradiction in the hearts of those we seek to evangelize. And LOSTs do exactly that, though they cater to the religious and legalistic streak I think we all have in us, lol.

Okay, sorry for a somewhat limited response, but glad for yours.

God bless.

Just wanted to correct myself on this, what it should have said is...


In chapter 3, the writer uses the wilderness as a prime example of one primary thing...unbelief. When we get to ch.10, he is giving the "how" of their actions that betray an unbelieving heart. Namely, returning to the sacrifices of the Law, which could not make perfect (complete), as His does.

The phone thing is neat, but...lol.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Don't take my word for what I say, if you what to know what the early Christians believed get the Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs here. You will find as did many others who read the beliefs of the early Christians, that none of the early church Christians believed the theory you hold. There was a group of people at that time that did hold this view and those were the Gnostics. The early Christians called these people heretics in their references to them and their beliefs.

Again, do your own research if you want to know it from a more reliable source than I.

Just a quick question, brother Wayne: are you amillenial?

God bless.

 

[Brother Wayne]

I would agree entirely concerning ch.10, buy ch.6 deals more with a direct questioning of the doctrine they understand. They are said to be infantile in their understanding, and the implication is that they have not fully understood or embraced exactly what Christ's coming meant in regards to the Law.

The writer does equate the Gospel with the rain, that it falls upon the entire earth, the fruit, though, has different results.

In short, the exhortation (and warning) is to leave the first principles ( the ABCs concerning Christ) and to progress to perfection (the realization, or, Christ having come and accomplished what was foretold as opposed to still clinging to Judaism). In other words...their salvation itself is challenged.

On my phone so that is as much as I can take of this ridiculously small keyboard, lol.

God bless

Thanks Darrel for your overview of Hebrews. I wish I had the time to write more but I will try to insert some brief remarks to the comments you made.

Firstoff, we see clearly who is being addressed in this book...

Hebrews 3:1
King James Version (KJV)

3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

This is further clarified in both the passages we've addressed.

Addressing first the passage in chapter 6:

Hebrews 6:1-6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The writer starts by challenging the Hebrew believers to go on to completion in Christ. Verse three he says "This will we do, if God permit". What will we do? We will lay aside the principles of the gospel of Christ and go on to perfection.

The word 'because' would be compatible with the word 'for' in verse four. He's saying we should leave these basic principles and go on to perfection because if we fall away we cannot again be brought to repentance. The words fall away were translated from a single word that means, to slip aside, to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander, to error, to fall away (from the true faith, from worship of Jehovah.

Verse 4 and 5 clearly show this to be a true believer who has been enlightened, has tasted of the heavenly gift, and partaken of the Holy Ghost.

Anyway, the verses are quite clear that the person in such position has lost his salvation. I've read some explanations of this passage that try to add and subtract so much that it's almost discussing.
Hebrews 10
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Just wanted to clarify that this verse isn't saying that we are sanctified once, but that Jesus sacrifice only needed to be done once. In the following verses the writer discusses how the Old Testament priests had to repeatedly offer sacrifices, but in the New Covenant the sacrifice only needed to be performed once for all mankind.

...and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified.


Wherewith WHO was sanctified? Since scripture is clear that salvation is eternal from the moment it is given, the WHO must of course be Christ. This stands to reason as it is this very truth which stands at the forefront concerning the Person of Christ. The New Covenant, ratified by the blood of Christ, is dismissed if the very blood by which it was ratified is dismissed. This is to say that Christ did not die for the sin of man, therefore a return to the Covenant which they "know" to be a valid system given by God is logical for them.

In all due respects, the 'who' there is NOT referring to Christ.

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Who is the first 'he' referring to?..The person who has fallen away. He has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing. Any English student would disagree with you. However, I do understand your need to overlook proper language in order to protect your idea.

Since scripture is clear that salvation is eternal from the moment it is given, the WHO must of course be Christ.

Explain yourself. Can we have eternal life while here on earth?..No! Eternal life speaks of our eternity with God in heaven.

Romans 6:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eternal life is a gift from God to his faithful children. Can a gift be lost? Is there any verse in the Bible that would give a Christian who has fallen back into unbelief any hope of eternal life?


Maybe more later...

 

[Brother Wayne]

Just a quick question, brother Wayne: are you amillenial?

God bless.

Not sure; that isn't a subject I have studied in depth yet.

 

[Darrell C]

Thanks Darrel for your overview of Hebrews. I wish I had the time to write more but I will try to insert some brief remarks to the comments you made.

Hello brother Wayne, thanks for the response.

Firstoff, we see clearly who is being addressed in this book...

Hebrews 3:1
King James Version (KJV)

3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

There is no question believers are addressed, however, as we go through Hebrews we see the writer's concern that there are those among them that have not truly believed, hence...the warnings.



Hebrews 2

King James Version (KJV)


2 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


The book starts out declaring that God has spoken through Jesus Christ, which has replaced what Israel was used to, which is that which was spoken through Moses.

Notice in v.3 that judgment is not escaped if they neglect salvation in Christ. This is not speaking of being careless of salvation we have, but being careless with the salvation offered by Christ in general. In other words, not embracing Christ through unbelief, for which cause the writer presents the wilderness experience.

Finish reading ch.2 and ask yourself if those that have embraced Christ and been saved need to have explained to them that Christ has made reconciliation for the sins of man? This is basic knowledge which leads to saving faith.

This is further clarified in both the passages we've addressed.

Addressing first the passage in chapter 6:

Hebrews 6:1-6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The writer starts by challenging the Hebrew believers to go on to completion in Christ. Verse three he says "This will we do, if God permit". What will we do? We will lay aside the principles of the gospel of Christ and go on to perfection.

The first principles of the Oracles of God (word of God) in view here are the Old Testament teachings of Christ, which we do not abandon, but understand them in their place of prophecy. For the Judaizer, this was all they had. For those after the Cross, we have the prophecy fulfilled, Christ has come. In the hearts of some there was unbelief. They had not fully grasped or conceded that prophecy had been fulfilled.

There is no "laying aside" of Old Testament principle concerning Christ, they are foundational, as the writer says. Shall we lay aside Isiaih 53? But...you see what I mean.

In view here is that they (those the warning is addressing) were still involved with the First Principles...rather than Christ Himself. He tells them they should be able to teach concerning prophecy fulfilled, but they have need to be taught again concerning the prophecy of Messiah, just as the woman at the well. She was aware Messiah was coming, but because revelation concerning Him was not yet established to the point that it is now, the mystery surrounding Christ was not yet revealed. Among the Hebrew audience were those that remained in that state.

The word 'because' would be compatible with the word 'for' in verse four. He's saying we should leave these basic principles and go on to perfection because if we fall away we cannot again be brought to repentance.

Key word repentance. It is possible for one to come to repentance and yet still not be saved.

Judas repented. Even Peter repented of his denial of Christ, yet that did not keep him from going back to fishing.

And again, it is important to understand the first principles are not abandoned. Going on to perfection simply means...being saved through Christ, as opposed to the works of the Law. This is why it is important in ch.10 to understand what the writer is saying concerning the Law, in that it could not perfect. Salvation in Christ can and does. The First and the New Covenanats are contrasted. The former temporary with temporary results (such as forgiveness of sin) and the latter complete with eternal results.

The words fall away were translated from a single word that means, to slip aside, to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander, to error, to fall away (from the true faith, from worship of Jehovah.

And you place this deviation from the right way...after salvation. But if you will hear the writer's exhortations not to be unbelieving you will see that it is before salvation takes place that these individuals are in danger of falling away.

Verse 4 and 5 clearly show this to be a true believer who has been enlightened, has tasted of the heavenly gift, and partaken of the Holy Ghost.

As shown in the previous posts, these are not events limited to those saved. Again consider Judas (not to mention many disciples that walked away, John 6:66): he experienced those things listed here. For example, it was a partaking of the Holy Ghost by which he was ennabled to preach, heal, and cast out demons.

As believers we do not "taste" of the Heavenly Gift, but are indwelt by Him. Christ "tasted" of death, yet this was not a enduring process.

Anyway, the verses are quite clear that the person in such position has lost his salvation. I've read some explanations of this passage that try to add and subtract so much that it's almost discussing.

Would you admit that you are predisposed to reject teaching that disagrees with your own position? I do not say this to be insulting, because we are all like that, lol.

There are many different views, yet, few of them include teaching concerning perfection. This is the one key that unlocks the passage, and indeed, much of the book. As you read them, ask yourself why something so important to the passage...is left out.

Hebrews 10
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Just wanted to clarify that this verse isn't saying that we are sanctified once, but that Jesus sacrifice only needed to be done once. In the following verses the writer discusses how the Old Testament priests had to repeatedly offer sacrifices, but in the New Covenant the sacrifice only needed to be performed once for all mankind.




In all due respects, the 'who' there is NOT referring to Christ.

There is a difference between sanctification and being made complete. The Law and it's service could not do that.

But this is better answered in your next statement:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Who is the first 'he' referring to?..The person who has fallen away. He has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing.

Then you hold the position that the New Covenant was ratified by the blood...of the believer?

The believer was sanctified by his own blood?

Think about that, brother wayne.

The one doing despite the Spirit of Grace can be seen to be one that has come under conviction, yet rejects the conviction of the Holy Spirit. As I said, one can come under conviction unto repentance without being saved.

Any English student would disagree with you. However, I do understand your need to overlook proper language in order to protect your idea.

On on that note, I have to get going, but I have to ask...what language are you speaking of? lol

Most of your questions have been addressed in the previous posts, such as the following, "Can we have eternal life while here on earth?"

Christ is clear in John 6; John is clear in 1 John. Both of which were touched upon in the previous posts.

Lastly, "My idea" can be clearly seen in the text...perfection is the one aspect of the book which I doubt you have yet considered. As I have said before, there is a blessing for you should you gain understanding of what the writer means concerning perfection in this book.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello brother Wayne, I didn't realize I was so close to the end of the post (had to get my mother to an appointment) so I will try to answer the rest, though it will be brief.

Since scripture is clear that salvation is eternal from the moment it is given, the WHO must of course be Christ.

Explain yourself.

Better yet, let the writer explain his position:



Hebrews 10:39

King James Version (KJV)


39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


There is a believing to the saving of the soul, and the nominal belief that is mentioned by the writer which he seeks to warn his Hebrew brethren not to fall into, as they did in the wilderness.

Going to switch gears a bit to give you another facet of perfection to consider in your study. If I asked you if the Old Testaments saints listed in ch.11 were "saved," what would your answer be?

Consider:



Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)


39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


They had faith, to be sure, but they awaited the promise of God in Christ, and until that sacrifice was offered, they could not be made complete.




Hebrews 12

King James Version (KJV)


12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

You are aware of Paul saying:



Philippians 1:6

King James Version (KJV)


6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


In Hebrews 12:2 we see that Christ is the completer, the finisher, the perfecter of our faith. For the Hebrews, they awaited the promise of God, and until that became available, through His death, they were not made complete.

We go back to Hebrews 10:14...



Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)


14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Now you cannot be "making complete forever," thus the translation is correct, "He has made complete forever them that are sanctified." In other words, the forgiveness that the Law could not bring, in which sacrifice after sacrifice must be offered because it could not finish the work, was completed in Christ.

And if forgiveness of sin is complete, how can it be said that there is a sin the born again believer can commit that is not atoned for on the Cross. This suggests a short-sightedness on the part of the Lord which neither of us would concede to.


We see in scripture two sanctifications, positional, as we see here in Hebrews, as well as progressive. Which one is in view is determined by the context of the passage. When v.10 tells us we are santified once, this speaks of positional sanctification. When we are positionally set apart unto God, we are made complete...forever.

And what that means, brother Wayne, is that completion concerning salvation in Christ is eternal. There will never be another sacrifice on the part of Christ nor the believer. If the believer could offer sacrifice that woul bring salvation and all that is involved in that, then we have despised the very thing that the writer warns against, for which cause he urges dsrawing near with a true heart and believing to the saving of the soul.

Can we have eternal life while here on earth?..No! Eternal life speaks of our eternity with God in heaven.

Not according to Christ. Read John 6 and notice that those that "eat of His flesh and drink of His blood have eternal life. Those that do not, have no life in them. Life in John is key and speaks of the Life of Christ, as opposed to physical life. This is why the disciples were confused, and asked, "How can we eat and drink?

I posted a few verses from John which answers this question, see them again:



John 6

King James Version (KJV)

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.


Consider this verse: the Lord explicitly says He gives Life to the world, not those that are in Eternity.


50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


Certainly man dies physically after salvation, so we see that if a man cannot die, what is in view is the spiritual life man has in Christ.


51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


Eating, not tasting, of the Bread of Life begins here, not in the eternal State, not when we are glorified. When we are glorified, we will then be redeemed from this flesh, but the Life of Christ begins here at salvation. Would you agree, or would you say that born-again believers have no life?


54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


"...has eternal life."

That is from the very mouth of Christ Himself. How would we make this to mean the opposite, which is:



53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


No life.

Life.

Only two choices offered. There is not an "on the way to eternal life," but a clear division by Christ between the two.

And we see why certain disciples walked away:


64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


Just as in Hebrews, the sin of unbelief is seen here, which is why the writer examples Israel in the wilderness. They fell because they did not believe, and belief, saving belief, is pre-requisite for salvation. In order for them to be believers losing their salvation, we have to ignore a fair amount of scripture which shows that unbelief is the focus of the warning.

And if you think about it, consider the beliefs of those that were still enmeshed in Judaism. How hard for them to come to saving faith if they did not believe that Christ was the Messiah and that His sacrifice meant they no longer had to offer sacrifice for remission of sin.


If they remained in Judaism offering up "the same sacrifices," in figure...they were crucifying Christ again, even as the sacrifices were a picture of His death before He died on the Cross:



Hebrews 6:6
King James Version (KJV)


6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.




Romans 6:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eternal life is a gift from God to his faithful children.
[/QUOTE]

Have you received this gift?

By saying that you have not eternal life-yet-what you are saying, like the Hebrews the writer is concerned for, is...you have no life in you.

And I know you would not agree to that, brother Wayne, I am sure you believe you have the life of Christ in you. But by negating the very teaching of Christ as well as that of the writer of Hebrews, in effect, what you are teaching is that Christians do not have life in Christ until the Eternal State.

Just think about it, okay. That may come across as offensive, but I mention it only because there can be no contradiction in God's word, and for one to lose salvation, we have to negate many scriptures that point to the contrary. So far, my hope is that if you can reconsider your position concerning verses and passages you believe teach loss of salvation, you might reconsider the verses and passages that clearly show that born-again believers have eternal life (in Christ)...now.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Can a gift be lost?

If you say yes, then you have just negated this:



Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)


8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


The problem is when THE GIFT is compared to human gifts. Yes, human gifts can be lost. But THE GIFT cannot. We are born again according to the will of God, not of our selves:



John 1:12-13

King James Version (KJV)


12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


There is nothing that God does not provide in salvation: belief, conviction of sin, repentance...all accomplished through the work of the Holy Spirit which when it takes place, leaves man the only exercise of free will he has, which is to embrace Him or to, as the writer of Hebrews puts it, "Do despite unto the Spirit of Grace."

Man says, "I believed, didn't I?"

Sure, but you did not believe before God convicted your heart of sin and showed you what you were to believe in.

Is there any verse in the Bible that would give a Christian who has fallen back into unbelief any hope of eternal life?


Maybe more later...

How many sins does scripture record as not being able to be forgiven?

Just one: and that is rejecting the work of God, or in other words, unbelief. Until one dies in the state of unbelief, there is still hope for them. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is exactly what the writer is speaking of here:



Hebrews 10:29

King James Version (KJV)


29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



The sin of Israel was not just sin, but the root of that sin, which was unbelief.

THe promise of God was rest for Israel, and we can see in retrosepect, because the mystery of Christ was unveiled, that God intended rest for all men.




Hebrews 3:11-19

King James Version (KJV)


11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)


This is the judgment, the wrath of God which prevented them from entering physical reast, the promised land.

Now see the warning of the writer to his Hebrew brethren:




12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Departure, falling away, has the same root cause as was found in the Children of Israel in the wilderness...unbelief.

You just cannot make a believer out of someone that does not believe.


13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?


Verse 14 is going to jump out to you probably, but don't stop there. He exhorts them not to replicate the rebellion of Israel, and for this reason they did not enter into His rest.


19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Again, unbelief is the reason. The warning is against unbelief in the heart of those among the Children of Israel, his Hebrew brethren.




Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)


4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

"Any of you..."

It is a general address to Hebrews, not to born-again believers. Notice here he warns against not entering into His rest, but lets keep going:



2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


The point here is like unto the one in ch.6, which is rain falling on the entire earth. Here we see that the Children of Israel were told all they need to know, so also with the writer's audience: they have received the Gospel, but the results are not assumed. Here we see mention that they had no faith.


3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

And to make sure he is not understand, he says pointedly that "We which have believed" do enter into rest. The corollary is that those that have not believed...have not.


Now, notice closely what he says here:


6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:



What keeps one from entering into His rest is, again...unbelief.

Who he is referring to when he says "it remaineth that some must enter in" is...those among his Hebrew brethren.



10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


If one has entered into His rest, which is salvation in Christ, he has ceased from his own works.

Not entering into His rest has the root cause of unbelief. The writer starts the book off with dire warning of unbelief, and that does not change in the warnings that follow. It is unbelief that would hold someone to remain in Judaism. Today, we can apply that to works people seek to do which they feel helps them retain their salvation, that they not lose it.

But if we have entered into His rest, we understand, because we have progressed from the prophecy of Christ to the realization of the Savior having come unto us and bringing life to the world...that we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, not by them. Sounds pat, I know, but that is what scripture teaches. We are confident that He will finish the work He has begun in us, that He will never leave nor forsake us, and that even Paul could not think of a scenario that would separate us from the love of God.

Brother Wayne, I hope you will give some serious time to the Book of Hebrews. I see it as a book which speaks about nearly everything we need to know concerning the Gospel. Study of this book is one of the most rewarding studies, at least has been for me, which is why I recommend it to all. A little confusing at first, but before long, these things fall into line, and we understand better our relationship to Christ concerning the First Covenant and the New. Understanding that we are brought into the New Covenant was one of the moments in my walk where my understanding of scripture as a whole was broadened. It made sense of many difficult passages.

Okay, I am shirking my duties, I should be working, but it is not often I get the chance to talk with people on this topic, so jsut know...I have nejoyed it.

God bless.