plain_n_simple
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My hope is that you who preach will find the courage to pray over the sick when you see them in your church, lay hands on them in His name and help your people.
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manifestation vs gift
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Rather you dismissed it.
I never said a word about Acts 2. Your behavior on this thread is terrible. You are using the same tactics of a J.W. I just finished confronting you with Hebrews 1:1,2, and then you tell me I deny Acts 2! Deal with the Scripture in Hebrews 1:1,2 which has nothing to do with Acts 2. Or don't you believe that all Scripture is inspired of God, just the parts you want to believe? Just the parts that are convenient to your little box of so-called Charismatic theology?
Paul did not write things for the good of his health, but for the spiritual health of those to whom he was writing. "This people" was the nation of Israel. They just heard with foreign lips and strange tongues--plural. The Assyrians had but one tongue or language. The fulfillment was write then and there in the time of Paul. If not, It would have been a useless piece of Scripture for Paul to quote and out of place in the 14th chapter of First Corinthians. He quoted it with meaning. It was a sign to them--the Jews at that time. If they did not take heed to this warning at that time they would fall under that hand of God's judgment. And so they did. Their temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. for they took not heed to the message of God, as Peter preached in on the Day of Pentecost.
That was not the fulfillment. Any Bible scholar can tell you that. The Assyrian army did not speak with a multitude of tongues. But there were many tongues or languages spoken on the Day of Pentecost when this was fulfilled.
Verse 22 follows verse 21 and is in the same context. Thus the "unbelieving Jew." Even so, Paul went first to the synagogues. It was most likely that it would be a Jew that would enter. It would be a Jew that would think they were mad, crazy. Their appearance was out of order. Paul was correcting this. He emphasized the importance of prophecy over tongues throughout the entire chapter and put the importance of tongues as the least of all the gifts in 1Cor.12:28.
They are not lies. Look at what you have posted. I have explained it word for word. You have said that the Holy Spirit hears from the Apostles and not from God. That is blasphemy!
NO. You are a Charismatic. These are the people you associate with. This is what they believe. If you don't believe such things then the Bible has advice for you.
Come out from among them saith the Lord and touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you.
Be not unequally yoked together.
Can two walk together unless they be agreed?
The answers are obvious. But you disregard Scripture.
No..just tired of repeating myself!
You are the one that said he does not speak in dreams and visions! Acts 2 proves you wrong! My behavior on this thread is standing up for the truth! The truth sometimes can come over offensive...but it is done out of love for the truth and others to have the same freedom that I have come to enjoy.
You can choose to believe anyway you like...but there are still unbelieving Jews today! That is the point!!
Where did I say that? Show me!
You are getting personal again...You, sir, have no idea who I associate with! I believe what the Bible says! STICK TO THE SCRIPTURES AND NOT MY PERSONAL LIFE PLEASE!!
How can we witness to people if we are not around people that do not believe as we do?
What are you referring too??
For crying out loud, STUDY the Bible, or at least actually read it through, don't just glance at it. Sure, "gifts" in 1 Cor. 12:1 is in italics, but not in 12:4, 9, 28, 30 & 31, five times compared to the one time of "manifestation." Furthermore, in the related passage of Rom. 12:6-8 the word "gifts" occurs but "manifestations" does not.
You dismiss this argument. You avoid it. You can't answer it. It totally destroys everything that you believe in. You try to rationalize it away, but you can't. I have given you lengthy explanations, and I have supported myself with the Bible, history, and by using logic. You are cornered and can't get out of it, so you just "are tired of repeating yourself." Repeating that you don't have an answer.
If the gifts were operational there would be evidence that they would be operational; evidence that that gift of healing, the gift of languages, the gift of miracles, etc. were being manifested today. But you and I both know it is not happening.
1. There is no one in this world that has the gift of healing such as Peter did in Acts 5:16. No one can heal all that come to him, without exception. No one.
2. No has the Biblical gift of tongues--to be able to speak miraculously another language in order to go to another nation and teach them the Word of God. No one can do that. Paul could. But we can't.
3. No one has the gift of miracles today. There is no one traveling around performing great signs and wonders such as the Apostles were or as Philip did in Samaria. No one is doing that. The gifts have ceased, and you don't want to admit it. You have absolutely no evidence that they are operational today.
If you stood up for the truth you would believe what Heb.1:1,2 says. But you are denying the truth therein.
Scripture has context. If you don't understand the context of 1Cor.14:21,22, then go back and study it again. Paul was not writing to 20th and 21st century Christians.
I will have to find it later. It seems to be on another thread.
Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. When we make that decision it becomes personal. When you take another step and personally become a Baptist you have made another personal decision. When you say that you are Charismatic that is another personal choice that you have made. A person is known by their associations, by the personal choices that they have made in this life.
I used to be a Catholic. Since I got saved I have never gone back to the Catholic Church. Their message sends people to Hell not to heaven. We are commanded to come out from among them; never to infiltrate them.
The commands of Scripture tell us to be separated from those people who do not agree as we do. That is why I can no longer fellowship with RCC, nor will I ever have fellowship with Charismatics. They live in error of the truth of the Word of God.
What arguement have I not addressed? I have addressed them all!
No, you are way off here! Hebrews is plain..."..the EVIDENCE of things NOT seen"...pretty plain! We cannot please God without faith! I have faith in His Word..you chose to have faith in the evidence..can't have them both ways!
I kept the interpretation within context..deal with it!
I doubt I will see the response to this..because it is not there!
Personal between me and Jesus! I did not get my beliefes from a charismatic association! I am not in a charismatic church! I am a member of a SBC. I believe what the Word says by faith!
I am so glad that my savior did not feel that way...he ate with sinners! I have many friends of different religions and we have had many discussions in a loving manner. A Catholic friend after many debates left the chuch as well. But if I would have had your attitude...I would have never associated with her and never been able to show her in scriptures where her beliefs were wrong.
The argument of evidence. If they were operational you would have evidence. No evidence; no gifts. It is as simple as that.
As the little old lady at the Wendy's fast food restaurant said: "Where's the beef!" Where is the "evidence" of this thing you call a hamburger? ("The home of the Big Bun"). No evidence; no gifts. You have no answer.
I understand the Bible. I don't take it out of context. I don't see all those heroes of the faith either but I know they are real. Why? Because they left a trail of evidence behind them. But they do not live on today. By your logic they all should be living today--the evidence of things not seen. I don't see them, but I believe they lived and did the things they did, by faith in the Word. I know the gifts were present and operational in the first century because of what is written in the Word of God. The evidence is there. I don't see it, but it is there!
What you believe is--no evidence; not seen. That is not what it teaches.
It teaches evidence, but evidence that is not visible to the eye.
I believe in Jesus but he is not visible to the eye.
There are no gifts of the Spirit today. There is no evidence of them. Anywhere by anyone. It is irrational for any sane person to believe by blind faith something that does not exist. Throwing in a misinterpretation of Heb.11:1 does not help your case. It only shows you don't understand the verse.
Think what you will, but you will be hard pressed to find anyone agree with you that Paul was referring to the Assyrians. Paul is not speaking of the past. He is referring to a prophecy that is being fulfilled right before their very eyes. That in itself proves your interpretation wrong. The fulfillment was right then and there, and that was the reason Paul was quoting 1Cor.14:21,22.
I have a friend that before he was saved, used drugs, alcohol, and was immoral. By your logic this is what he should do.
1. He should become a drug addict to reach the drug addicts.
2. He should become an alcoholic to reach the alcoholics.
3. He should become a pimp to reach the prostitutes.
--Am I right? Is that your reasoning. Go back into sin that you can reach the sinners? Is that what Jesus did? Was Jesus a winebibber? and a glutton? Do you also accuse our Lord of that?
So you do believe he was gluttonous and a drunkard as the Jews accused him?
No, if you had my attitude you would never again enter the Catholic Church. Don't put words in my mouth. Just as I would not enter the Catholic Church I would not gather with Charismatics, or go to their meetings. John and others have already told you of the error they are associated with.
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
Again...you turn to this nonsense! Stay in your unbelief...miss out on the abundant life...never walk over to the promise land. Like you said in another post...Christianity is full of choices! YOu have made yours and I have made mine!
exactly! But you are asking for evidence to the eye!
Oh, I understand the verse! Blind faith?? How is believing, taking God at His Word, blind faith?
proof you did not read what I posted!
You are beyond reasoning with! If that is what you got out of my statement, no wonder we can not agree on anything!
Did I say that? Why do you insist on adding to my post what is not there? You are really going out of your way to find fault in what I say!
What meeting did I say I attended? None! I tell you these things are happening in Baptist churches! God is doing amazing things here in the south!
You do not have to do those things to witnes to them! So you disassociate with everyone you disagree with?
I will witness to a Muslim, but I will not go into a Mosque and pray with him.
I will witness to a Catholic but I will not go into a Catholic church and worship with him.
I will witness to a Charismatic, but I will never enter their churches.
OTOH, you will. You have not separated yourself from doctrinal error.
You can't call yourself a Baptist and a Charismatic at the same time.
The Baptist distinctives are opposed to what the Charismatics believe.
One can lead a horse to water by he can't make him drink.
You blatantly refuse Scripture.
But these are some things you should not refuse.
The movement you are following started in 1905. Before that it was only known in paganism and in cults. Are you truly ready to dismiss 19 centuries of Christianity wrong, and in the face of 19 centuries of Godly men and women say "I am write, and all those believers who lived for 1900 years before, every single one of them, are wrong."
Are you really willing to do that?
Are you still willing to say "The gifts of the Holy Spirit (as listed in 1Cor. 12:28, etc.) are operational today," even though you don't have a shred of evidence that there is not a single person practicing them today--at least not the sign gifts as they are known--healing, miracles, Biblical languages, prophecy, signs and wonders, etc. You have absolutely no evidence of anyone anywhere displaying (manifesting) these gifts, and yet you continue to say they are in operation. That flies in the face of all logic, common sense, and even sanity. It is not faith to believe in nonsense. God is a God of order, and that isn't order.
In these two things you should consider carefully where you stand. You stand alone in history. "I am right and the world is wrong and has been wrong for 20 centuries." Is that the right place to be? Are you sure?
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Well, I would take your advice if I was following a movement...but I am not! I am following the Word of God!
Acts 12:28???? can't find that one. But I do believe the manifestation of the Spirit is for today! It was given on the Day of Pentecost and will not be taken from us! He will abide with me forever! YOur unbelief of this can not make it go away!
History is not always correct. They do not record everything! But the Word of God is correct and perfect! So I will believe the Word!
That is what Jim Jones said. (People's Temple)
It is what Charles Russell said. (J.W.'s)
It is what Ellen G. White said. (SDA)
It is what Mary Baker Eddy said. (Christian Science)
It is what Joseph Smith said. (Mormon)
They were all "just following the Bible" and leaving 1900 years of orthodox Christianity behind. They were right and the whole word was wrong, just like you.
The reference is 1Cor.12:28. I corrected it in the original post. But you know where they are listed, and you know what they are. You have even posted that there are nine of them.
The reference doesn't make much difference when you refuse to answer the content of the post:
even though you don't have a shred of evidence that there is not a single person practicing them today--at least not the sign gifts as they are known--healing, miracles, Biblical languages, prophecy, signs and wonders, etc. You have absolutely no evidence of anyone anywhere displaying (manifesting) these gifts,
You can on in your blindness and ignorance, but you don't find any evidence of these gifts being operational today. Why do you claim they are? Why not claim there are green gods on Pluto? There is just as much evidence--zero! Or, to bring it back to reality--There is just as much evidence that the Hindu god of Ganesh, their elephant god, exists today, as there is that the gifts are operational today. There is no evidence for either one.
Christianity is based on historical evidence; Hinduism is not.
Your beliefs are more akin to Hinduism as far as evidence is concerned. They are not based in any historical evidence. 1900 years have passed, and there is no evidence and no promise of these gifts being operational. There is a promise in the Bible of some of them being operational once more, but not until Jesus comes again, and that hasn't happened yet.
orthodox christianity???
Biblical languages? where did you come up with that? You sure are adding a lot to the scriptures that is not there. If you need to see proof of miraculous healings in order to believe that healing is for today, then you are basing your views on experience rather than basing our views on Scripture.
Well, I experience it! Prophecy, tongues, interpretation of tongues, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, healings, discernment of spirits, Faith...I have witnessed all of them! They are for today!
Well stay where you are! I will walk in the powere He said I can walk in...and I will walk it out by faith in His written Word.
Yes, orthodox Christianity. You were once a Baptist believing in the orthodox beliefs of the Christian faith. And as far as I know you still do. But the Bible warns us about adding to the Word of God. You are adding heretical doctrine to the orthodox doctrine which you believe which makes your beliefs unorthodox.
For more of an extreme example, a person can't believe all the doctrines of Christianity and then say that he believes everything that Islam teaches at the same time. It can't be done. You can't believe in orthodox Christianity, that which the Apostles taught, that which Christianity has taught over the last 1900 years, and then suddenly tack on some unbiblical doctrines, and expect to be taken seriously.
Sure, Jim Jones, Ellen G. White, Charles Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, and the others all wanted their fame. They stood for the Word of God, they said. Mainstream Christianity was wrong. That is also what the Kansas City Prophets said at the beginning of the 20th Century. Some of the people they associated with dabbled in the occult. Thus started the Pentecostal and then the Charismatic movements. It is not Biblical. It has nothing to do with orthodox Christianity. It came right out of paganism. It is a practice of Voodooism, Hinduism, and other pagan religions.
My mistake. I meant real languages, foreign languages, languages that exist today or when the NT was being written, the ability to speak the languages known at that time. Of course if you really want to get technical, since tongues ceased in the first century, that is during the time the Bible was being written, then Biblical tongues or languages would be those languages being spoken during Biblical times. Thus my statement would not be inaccurate at all, would it?
Many Charismatics say that one cannot be saved unless they speak in tongues. Yet speaking in tongues is not done today, anywhere in this world. I guess they all remain unsaved don't they? And as long as they believe that they don't have any chance of being saved.
If you don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, and have not trusted that he paid the penalty for your sin with his shed blood then you cannot be saved. If you have done that, that is an experience that you had. You either trusted Christ or you didn't. Which is it? The proof of your salvation is in the fruit of the life you live--not a "good" life. Many unsaved live a "good" life, or so they think, but a life that demonstrates the fruit of the Holy Spirit; not the gifts of the Spirit, but the fruit of the Spirit.
Yes, I look for proof. I look for evidence. I often have the duty of hiring and firing. I look for evidence in a person's life of salvation and spiritual maturity.
My experiences are based on Scripture. You do have experiences. You speak of them all the time. But you speak of experiences that are not Biblical and that Christians have dismissed for the last 1900 years. So what makes you think you are right, in the face of 1900 years of Christianity?
Prophecy is a revelatory gift. What books of the Bible have you added since revelation was written. How many more chapters did God give you?
That is funny. You have already admitted that you don't know what you say, and now you say you have the gift of interpretation. Do you know how contradictory that sounds?
What languages have you spoken in? To what groups of foreign people?
Another revelatory gift? Are you still adding to God's Word. God condemns that. The canon of Scripture is closed.
You haven't done miracles, signs and wonders, the gift of healing. They have ceased.
When are you going to start walking on water?
You have no evidence. You say things you cannot do. When challenged you cannot offer proof. It is a sham. I pity you.
How do you know for sure we have been taught the complete truth in the Baptist religion? Because I have questioned some things I did not understand even as a teenager and most people would explain it away. So I thought I was just to immature and when I grew in the Lord I would understand more. Well I have been under the word in a Baptist church now for over 52 years...still the same questions! So I went to God and prayed for answers...Do you think my father would lead me astray?
If studing the Word of God is an occult....then we are all in trouble! The Word is what I am studing...I have been presenting the Word.
Well, I will agree that they are real languages...but I do not agree that God took away the Holy Spirit that manifest the same today as He did then.
Well, that is where I disagree with Charismatics...I do not believe you have to speak in tongues in order to be saved.
I will agree...even in marriage we look for the fruit in people before we marry them, because they are evidence of salvation. But the manifestation in power or the lack of it does not determine the indwelling Holy Spirit. You could have the power all along...never been taught you have it....therefore never manifest it! It does not mean you do not have it you are just quenching it!
Can I ask you the same question? What makes you think your experience is correct? I read the Word...I believed the Word...I stepped out on Faith in what the Word said I could!
THat is where you misunderstand prophecy....
Please read more carefully! I have witnessed this! But I have also prayed in the spirit and ask for the interpretation..once He gives me the interpretation..I also pray with my understanding. Just like the scriptures tell me I can!
[/quote]What languages have you spoken in? To what groups of foreign people? [/quote] Show me one scripture in The Word that shows that the person himself new the language he was speaking. You can not! Tongues/speaking to God/praying in the spirit is not speaking to people. Paul corrected that in Corinthians. They were not to use tongues/speaking to God/praying in the spirit without the interpretation in church. It is not preaching! It does not win people over to the Lord...Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost ...it was the preaching of the Word that brought salvation to 3.000, not tongues! They witnessed the disciples speaking to God in tongues. They were not speaking to the foreigners!
It does not say "word of knowledge ceased" it said knowledge. A word of knowledge does not take away or add to the Word of God. It is prophecy on a personal level it is to exhort, encourage, edify comfort.
I work in a business where I see many clients in my business, many of them are spirit filled Christians. I got a phone call from one of them and they gave me a word of knowledge that God had impressed on their hearts. They were hesitant in calling me because our relationship was business...but the word they gave me took me off my feet. I had to sit down. I was dealing with something personal in my life and no one knew about it but my family. When this word came I knew it was from the Lord! Along with it was a word of wisdom (what to do with the knowledge given). That did not add to or take away from the Word of God. It was comforting and edified my situation.
Heb. 11:1 Faith is the evidence of things not seen! You want evidence before you believe! Where is the faith in that?
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plain_n_simple
Active Member
Of the gifts we say we still have, wisdom, knowledge, faith, and discernment, these do not require proof. The ones that do require proof are curiously no longer needed, by false ministers of Christ. How will you answer Him.
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. The wickedness of your own heart will lead you astray, whether or not you like to admit it. We still retain our old natures, our sin nature, even though we have a new nature given to us by Christ. We are not sinless, perfect. Yes you can easily be led astray. Satan is very good at that.
52 years of teaching and suddenly you found something new?? That is how all those cults started. They wanted something new--something outside of orthodox Christianity. God never leads against His Word. That is why your pastor never taught it. The fact that he didn't have the answers to your questions is sad. He should have. But to say that your prayers were answered is not true. They weren't. You went astray.
I know of a woman in a similar situation. She went astray; started looking for "something new." She was befriended by a J.W. She actually began going to some of their meetings, was deceived by them, and then attended one of their large city conventions. What she saw and experienced there frightened her so much "that she came to her senses." In tears she came back to her pastor begging repentance. Her repentance needed to be directed to God of course. She is now a faithful Christian following the Word of God. It is a frightening thing to see Satan at work.
The sad thing in your situation is that you are blind in seeing Satan at work here. He is not the one leading you. He is not the one in answering your prayers. God never goes against His Word.
So do Muslims. I know of a Muslim who has memorized the NT word for word. But that doesn't make him either saved or spiritual. I know both RCC apologists and Muslim apologists. They know the Word inside and outside. You would have a difficult time with them, for they know the Bible better than you do. That doesn't make them saved. They present the Word very well. But it doesn't make them right.
You can present the Word, but your presentation of the Word is wrong, just like theirs.
You twist words and make false accusations in doing so. That is nothing short of lying.
No one said that God took away the Holy Spirit. No one.
The Holy Spirit operates today in a different way today then he did in previous times. But he certainly hasn't be taken away. So don't lie about our position.
Yes, speaking in tongues was the ability to speak in real known languages at that time. It was the ability that Paul had when he went to different nations such as Spain, to speak in Spanish so that the Spanish people could understand him. It was a revelatory gift. No one has that gift today. Always remember that the gift of tongues had more than one purpose in the first century. That was one of the main purposes. But that doesn't happen today.
I know that, but by your very belief in tongues you associate yourself with them, and put yourself in the same general boat as they are. You are a Charismatic and fall under the same large umbrella. That is why I quoted the verses I did. Come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord.
You cannot quench something that doesn't exist. There is no evidence that anyone today has the gift of healing, the gift of speaking in foreign languages, the gift of prophecy, the gift of miracles, etc. It isn't there and you don't have the evidence. You disregarded 52 years of your own teaching, and now you are disregarding 1900 years of Christian teaching. How can it be so??
Yours is not real for their is no evidence. I have pointed to that already.
You will make excuses if I tell you: Can you heal all that come to you with no exception? Have you friends that have this gift. And the answer is NO.
Therefore you don't have this experience. It is not real. You just think it is real. But it isn't. It is some type of emotional experience not based on the Bible. No evidence.
Jesus loved me this I know for the Bible tells me so.
--You should understand something as simple as that.
I know I am saved because I stand on the promises of God which I know to be true and faithful. I have trusted Christ as my Savior.
Secondly, I know I am saved because God's Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am his child. Can you say the same thing?
I don't misunderstand prophecy. It was a revelatory gift given to first century Christians when the Bible was not yet complete.
It is revelation. It is mentioned in 1Cor.13:8 as a revelatory gift.
1. Praying in the spirit is not praying in tongues.
2. Praying to God is always with understanding.
3. Paul condemns praying in tongues and praying without understanding.
4. The only time Paul permits praying in tongues was in a local church and with interpretation. That is the only time he permitted it.
5. There is no such thing taught in Scripture as a private prayer language. It is condemned in Scripture, and cannot be supported by Scripture.
--See if you can refute these point by point.
On the day of Pentecost they spoke in other languages.
On the day of Pentecost the entire crowd heard in the language in which they were born, their mother tongue.
They were real languages, understood by the people that they were speaking to.
In Acts 2 they needed no interpreters, because the entire audience were Jews. It was a Jewish Feast, held at the Temple, where the Jews had come to gather.
In Corinth time had passed (about 25 years now). Tongues were a gift for the church, for edification of the church, much like prophecy was. But it was still a sign for the Jews. That sign had not passed (1Cor.14:21). It was also beneficial for those whose mother tongue was not the common language of the day. All could understand Greek. All Jews could understand Greek and their own language Hebrew. But if there were visitors there from (for example Spain), then Paul would speak in Spanish. It would be interpreted back into Greek for all to understand. Because the message of God was spoken by a person from another nation, in a language of another nation it was a sign to the Jews that were there that if they did not repent judgment would come. The tongues had both purposes--to give revelation, to give understanding, to give a sign to the Jews. Some of the Jews present may have been unsaved.
Word of knowledge is a phrase used one time in the Bible, found in 1Cor.12:7 and you take it upon yourself to be the one authority that can define it in the face of 1900 centuries of Christian scholarship. Let me say with all authority that your definition is wrong. "Word of knowledge" has also to do with revelation. It does not mean to exhort, encourage, edify and comfort. It has nothing to do with those things, and you can't prove that it does. The context dictates otherwise. All you have given is opinion, and it is a pretty lame one at that.
An impression on one's heart is not a word of knowledge.
Yes, practicing levitation is the occult. It is condemned in the Bible. We wouldn't want you suspended in the air for any length of time would we? :smilewinkgrin:
Perhaps. But it was not a word of knowledge. God leads in different ways. But it was not a word of knowledge.
Because a person can give you good advice does not mean that he has the gift of "word of wisdom." That was not a "word of wisdom." He gave you good advice. Truthfully an unsaved person could have done that unless it was spiritual advice given. Even then it was not a word of wisdom.
moot.
red herring.
The cults quote scripture out of context.
It has nothing to do with what you were saying.
No, I found a deeper relationship! More hunger for my Lord than ever before! So...I do not think satan would lead me into a deeper walk with God.
I did not attend any meetings, no one took me aside and explained these truths to me. I went in search to defend what I was brought up to believe. But when I got into the word...I found what I am sharing now! ONce I saw it for myself, I repented of my unbelief and asked God to help me!
Well, we have hashed it out over and over...and I just do not see it the same as you do!
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