Yes, he gave the church gifts and apostles were one of them! Nowhere in scripures does it say they were taken away from the church.
Maybe we need to make clear what revelation really is??
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Are there Modern Apostles/prophets today?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Yes, he gave the church gifts and apostles were one of them! Nowhere in scripures does it say they were taken away from the church.
Maybe we need to make clear what revelation really is??
I am not assumimg. I am always open to change if you can show IN SCRIPTURES why I should change how to interpret it.
He "gave" [past tense], and they were given as the foundation for the church. That foundation of the church cannot be taken away, and has not been taken away.
It does not say that more apostles would continue to be given as you seem to suggest. It would seem to be your new private intepretation that in effect takes away the apostles as the foundation of the church and tries to make "apostles" be a continuing necessary office in the church without any way for the church to identify who properly was given that office.
In the New Testament when churches were established in new areas, there is no scriptural indication that there was an apostle given for each of those individual local churches or for all the local churches of a city or region. The apostle Paul instructed Titus to ordain "elders" [same office as bishop/pastor] in each city for the local churches in that city, but there was no instructions about how to ordain or appoint "apostles" in those cities [Titus 1:5]. The scriptural qualifications or requirements for those "elders/bishops" are then given [Titus 1:7-9], but where is the list for how it would be known that someone after the New Testament apostles would supposedly also be an "apostle"?
THe foundation is the teaching of the apostles that was founded on Christ teaching to them....not the apostles themselves!
First, an apostle is a servant, a steward like all five Eph,4:11 ministries Jesus "called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant." (Matt.20:25-27, Note: 1Cor.3:1010, 2Cor.1:24)
Why then has God set "first apostles..."
God "hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. " (1Cor.12:28) They are first because of their responsibility / accountability for the foundation. The foundation is always first and so are the workers responsible for it.(1Kings.5:17, 2Chron.8:16, Ezra.3:6-13, 1Cor.3:10-15)
They "continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. (Acts 2:42-43; 5:12; 14:3)
Apostle Peter and John (Acts.3:1-10; 4:16, Mark.16:9-20)
Apostle Paul (Acts.14:8-18; 20:7-12; 28:1-6, Rom.15:9)
Sign, wonders and might deeds are still happening today. They did not stop after the death of the last apostle John.
An apostle is a "wise master builder." (1Cor.3:10)
The word "masterbuilder" is a chief constructor, architect. (a person who designs buildings and advises in their construction. A person who designs and guides a plan or undertaking. Someone who understands what the building should look like. As a "wise masterbuilder" Paul knew what the finished building looked like and what kind of of foundation (1Cor.3:10-11) was needed.
Moses and Paul
Both were apostles. Moses the type,(Heb.3:1-6) Paul the reality.(Rom.1:1)
Moses had Aaron who was a prophet.(Exod.7:1)
Paul had prophets travel with him. (Acts.13:1-3; 15:32)
The apostle and prophet together are responsible for the foundation. (Eph.2:20)
Both were educated in the things of this world and rejected it.
Moses rejected it. He "esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: (typifying this world) for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward." (Acts.7:22, Heb.11:26-27)
Paul rejected it and called it "dung." (Phil.3:1-8)
Both had a miraculus calling. (Exod.3:1-22, Acts.9:1-20)
Both spent time in the desert to remove their natural / earthly wisdom. (Exod.2:15-22, Gal.1:17, Phil.3:8)
Both had their speaking ability erased. (Exod.4:1-10 / Acts.7:22, 1Cor.2:1-4)
Moses recieved the blueprint, Paul (the Architect) interpreted the blueprint. (Always a picture in the OT for the reality in the NT)
Moses wrote down the journey of Israel. (Deut.31:9-11)
Paul writes, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: (types, models, sketchy outline, blueprint) and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1Cor.10:11) Paul also reads the blueprint of the Tabernacle of Moses, (Heb.8:1-5) The function of the High Priest. (Heb.2:17; 3:1; 4:14-16;6:20; 7:1-28; 8:1-5; 9:1-26; 10:1-10)
Peter, the apostle and "wise masterbuilder" interprets the Priesthood. (Exodus, Leviticus, 1Peter.2:5-9)
The word "masterbuilder" is a chief constructor, architect. (a person who designs buildings and advises in their construction. A person who designs and guides a plan or undertaking. Someone who understands what the building should look like. As a "wise masterbuilder" Paul knew what the finished building looked like and what kind of of foundation (1Cor.3:10-11) was needed.
Moses and Paul
Both were apostles. Moses the type,(Heb.3:1-6) Paul the reality.(Rom.1:1)
Moses had Aaron who was a prophet.(Exod.7:1)
Paul had prophets travel with him. (Acts.13:1-3; 15:32)
The apostle and prophet together are responsible for the foundation. (Eph.2:20)
Both were educated in the things of this world and rejected it.
Moses rejected it. He "esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: (typifying this world) for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward." (Acts.7:22, Heb.11:26-27)
Paul rejected it and called it "dung." (Phil.3:1-8)
Both had a miraculus calling. (Exod.3:1-22, Acts.9:1-20)
Both spent time in the desert to remove their natural / earthly wisdom. (Exod.2:15-22, Gal.1:17, Phil.3:8)
Both had their speaking ability erased. (Exod.4:1-10 / Acts.7:22, 1Cor.2:1-4)
Moses recieved the blueprint, Paul (the Architect) interpreted the blueprint. (Always a picture in the OT for the reality in the NT)
Moses wrote down the journey of Israel. (Deut.31:9-11)
Paul writes, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: (types, models, sketchy outline, blueprint) and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1Cor.10:11) Paul also reads the blueprint of the Tabernacle of Moses, (Heb.8:1-5) The function of the High Priest. (Heb.2:17; 3:1; 4:14-16;6:20; 7:1-28; 8:1-5; 9:1-26; 10:1-10)
Peter, the apostle and "wise masterbuilder" interprets the Priesthood. (Exodus, Leviticus, 1Peter.2:5-9)
The same way He appointed (ordain and place) the first twelve apostles because, " Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Heb.13:8, Mal.3:6, James.1:17) Jesus is still in charge! He is the head of the Church! (Eph.1:22-23, Col.1:18) He is still appointing apostles today! Why then did the the apostle and prophet ministry disappear after the death of the apostle John? The answer: It was man made himself head of the Church and eliminated the apostle and prophet. Jesus never changed!
Today, Jesus appoint through the guidance of the Holy Spirit
Jesus said, after my resurrection (John.7:38-39, Acts.2:1)"He (the Holy Spirit) will take of mine (how I selected Apostles) and shew it unto you. (John.16:13-15) "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: (about apostles) for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, (about apostles) that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine:therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." (John.16:13-15)
It was when God ascended that he poured out the gifts listed in Eph. The 12 were already called at that time. So what he poured out after ascending to His Father were the continuing office of apostle.
The 12 are the originals and they suffered the most and will be honored as the first! But that does not prove that the church still does not need the apostles today.
There are many other apostles mentioned in scriptures...
No he isn't, and you can't get that from those Scriptures.
That Jesus Christ changes not has nothing to do with the apostles. Is Moses still among us today? What about Elijah? Jesus Christ is eternal. OT prophets are not with us any longer just as the apostles are not with us. Matthias was appointed as the last of the 12, and then Paul was given a special dispensation, "as one born out of due time." Those are the only apostles that the Scriptures mention in an official capacity as holding the "office" of an apostle. The others mentioned do not hold "the office" of an apostle. Did those others you refer to see the resurrection of Jesus, a requirement of an apostle? We don't know if they did. And certainly no one today has!
You don't interpret the Scriptures; you butcher them.
The apostolic age has finished; it finished with the death of John at the end of the first century. Virtually every commentary will attest to that. No one agrees with you. Why is that. Because your little theory is not Biblical, has no Scriptural support, and is unheard of. Why are you insistent on going against what the Bible plainly teaches? You infer that man has over-ruled God! How can man have greater power than God? If God had wanted the gifts to continue they would have continued. Man cannot stop what God wants to continue. You suggest that man can stop what God wants to continue. Man is greater than God, therefore. What a ridiculous suggestion!
This is terrible exegesis of Scripture.
The Holy Spirit does not take direction from dead apostles!!!
Whatsoever He (the Holy Spirit) shall hear from God He shall speak.
You have God taking directions from dead men. How ridiculous!!
The Holy Spirit's ministry was always to glorify Christ, and no one else.
There were 120 in the upper room, whom he poured out his blessing.
Not all the apostles were in the church of Ephesus.
The apostles and the prophets, and Christ, make up the foundation of the church, with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Not all are with us today. The only way that the prophets and apostles are with us today is that they are the authors of the Word of God.
There were 12 and only 12. There names are written on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem. There were 12 offices. There never will be another office. That case is closed. You have no other argument left. There are no apostles today.
convicted1
Guest
Nope.
Next time you come across someone who claims there are apostles/desciples(if you have come across some recently, that is), ask them have they walked on water, went to a morgue and raised a corpse, laid hands on someone and they received the Holy Ghost(I know some claim they can do this and give someone the Spirit), cast out demons, listen to them studder, or is it stutter???:laugh:
Paul said, "Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? (1Cor.9:1-2) However, Epaphroditus, Titus, Timothy and Silvanus had not seen the Lord and they were apostles. (1Thes.1:1; 2:1-20) Note the words, "we" and "our" in Thess.
Again, they are not part of the twelve, but scriptures show there were more apostles. You can try all you want to explain them away...but they are listed.
At your old tricks again! Adding to what I plainly spoke against. Man has failed many times in church history! It is man's failure, not Gods!!!
How do you read that into what I posted? The Holy Spirit still directs us today He guides us into all truth..TODAY!...and truth does glorify God!
Where did I say otherwise?
Nowhere does it say that you have to write a book in the Bible to be an apostles.
I am not saying that their is more scripture being written by apostles today. There is no scripture being written today!
Paul, Peter, John, James wrote scripture
Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Simon, Mathias were apostles and they did not write scripture. Therefore, writing scripture cannot used as a qualification for a apostle
Luke was not listed as an apostle and he wrote Luke and the Book of Acts.
(Luke.1:1-4, Acts.1:1)
Jude was not listed as an apostle and he wrote the book of Jude (Jude).
I never denied the original 12! But you have yet to show me in scriputures where it ended. You have also not recognized that the gifts in Eph. were not given until after Jesus resurrected and set down on the right hand of his Father. THe original 12 were already called...so why did he send the gift of an apostle after His resurrection?
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Complete nonsense.There are no apostles on earth today...none.I doubt you have ever been in a meeting where the Spirit of God was present...or you would not post this foolishness.
Why not stop asserting those things that you cannot prove. Next time you want to say this back it up with evidence.
Demonstrate that the gift of healing is still in operation, as it was in the time of Peter, demonstrated by Peter in Acts 5:16.
Demonstrate that the gift of tongues (languages) is still in existence by pointing to those who have it; those who don't have to learn foreign languages because God miraculously gives it to them.
Demonstrate that the gift of miracles is still in existence by pointing to those who are able to perform miracles--signs and wonders like the apostles did.
Don't just say that they are for today. Point out people who have these gifts, are practicing them, the time, place, etc. Give the evidence or stop asserting that they are still in existence.
Stop being hypocritical about it all.
You are really having a hard time making your point aren't you. You assert things without evidence. Just like you assert the gifts are still in operation but have no evidence. What is that saying: "Put up or shut up." Good advice.
12 foundations; 12 apostles.
Peter healed all who came to him--thousands, and all were healed.
Who today can heal like that? The answer is no one. The gift has ceased.
I am using your facts; your logic; and thus what would be your conclusions. So follow along.
#1. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today (you claim).
#2. We don't see them because it was man that stopped the gifts.
Conclusion: Man over-ruled God and stopped the gifts which God (you claim) says are for today. Thus man has stopped God from manifesting the gifts. Man has greater power than God. This is your belief.
Our belief is that God had no need for the gifts at the end of the apostolic age (first century). There were no more apostles. The office has ceased. Furthermore the NT was completed. Thirdly, they were a sign for unbelieving Jews. If they didn't believe judgement would come. Judgment came in 70 A.D. That date has come and gone. God has removed the signs. The gifts have come and gone, and were all gone by the end of the first century.
The Holy Spirit speaks of Christ; magnifies Christ, not the apostles as you said. This is a blasphemous interpretation:
The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth about the apostles (NOT), for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear about the apostles (NOT) that shall he speak.
What blasphemy is this!
The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. Period. He shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear (from the Father) that shall he speak.
You have the Holy Spirit receiving knowledge from dead men. The Holy Spirit is God. He doesn't take directions from the Apostles, as you have stated. He magnifies Christ, not the apostles.
The Scriptures indicate that the prophets and apostles are the writers of the Scripture. It is speaking in a general way. But that is where the credit is given. I never said that writing Scripture was a requirement. Many apostles didn't.
However one requirement of an apostle was to personally witness the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Are you actually responding to what I posted?
Here is what I said:
There were 120 in the upper room, whom he poured out his blessing.
Not all the apostles were in the church of Ephesus.
The apostles and the prophets, and Christ, make up the foundation of the church, with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Not all are with us today. The only way that the prophets and apostles are with us today is that they are the authors of the Word of God.
The Bible says:
2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
--The prophets and the apostles are recognized as the authors of Scripture in a general sense. That is how Peter refers to them.
Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'Let his habitation be made desolate, Let no one dwell therein,' and, 'Let another take his office.'
Acts 1:24 They prayed, and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two you have chosen
Acts 1:26 They drew lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
The office was fulfilled with Matthias. It says so right here. He is numbered with the eleven, making 12. It ends here.
Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.
There is only enough room for 12 Apostles--12 and only 12.
That is what the Lord has said.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
I know your opinion and was not addressing you sir.
saturneptune
New Member
Are you breaking the news to me that Joel Olsteen, Ernest Angley and Oral Roberts are not apostles? Here it is 4 am, and have not been to sleep yet. I will be awake with tears the rest of the night. Hope you are happy. I have not been so upset since Mom and Dad told me there was no Santa.
saturneptune
New Member
I have to agree. Apostles were for a special time and special purposes. It kind of reminds me of the belief that all original gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active. Then again, I have agreed with several of your posts lately. That could be a sure sign that End Times are upon us. LOL
saturneptune
New Member
In this forum, the only time you address a specific person is by private message. Otherwise, an open post is fair game for anyone to answer.
Come on! Oral Roberts saw a 900 foot Jesus. Joel Osteen was on what's-his-name's big time TV show. And Ernest Angley heals people through the TV when they just lay their hands on his hand on the screen (https://www.ernestangley.org/miracles). What more proof do you need?
