I'll bet you don't

[The Biblicist]

Again, you seem to "have a form of Godliness, but deny the power". That is scripture my opposite friend.

That is not the scripture I responded to! That is not the theme of this thread. That is merely another accusation you added to the former one that addressed me as "the antichrist." Don't you get tired of name callng and lying?

 

[plain_n_simple]

That is not the scripture I responded to! That is not the theme of this thread. That is merely another accusation you added to the former one that addressed me as "the antichrist." Don't you get tired of name callng and lying?

You said, in scripture,we are not called to lay hands on the sick. Jesus said to do it. You deny the power and "play" at being a follower. You oppose Jesus.

 

[The Biblicist]

You said, in scripture,we are not called to lay hands on the sick. Jesus said to do it. You deny the power and "play" at being a follower. You oppose Jesus.

No, I oppose your interpretation of the words of Jesus. Basic hermeneutics is to ask who is speaking and to whom is he speaking and what is he speaking about. You got the first right but wrong on the following two basic questions and that is why you interpret his words wrong.

He is speaking directly to his apostles.


Mark 3:14 ¶ Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Remember, he had many disciples that were baptized and followed him and from which a new apostle was appointed. However, he chose 12 and called them apostles and gave them power to heal the sick. He did not give that power to all his disciples and to argue he did is to simply invalidate the particular calling and empowerment given to the apostles among his disciples:

Mark 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

Furthermore, you ignore the context of FULFILLMENT:

Mk. 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

These are "the signs" of the apostolic office that set them apart from all other disciples (2 Cor. 12:12). It was through their laying on of hands that believers received such spiritual gifts.

This is particularly made clear to those in Rome (Rom. 1:11). Notice that in the list of spiritual gifts in Romans 12 there are NO SIGN GIFTS listed or mentioned and that is precisely why Paul wanted to come to Rome and lay hands on them to impart such sign gifts (Rom. 1:11).

This is exactly what Philip a deacon could not do to those who believed the gospel and were baptized by him. Although the apostles laid hands upon him and conveyed such spiritual gifts (Act 6:5-6) he could not convey them to those discipled. This particular power was what Simon recognized belonged to the apostolic office and attempted to purchase it from them:

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

The definite article is missing in the Greek text indicating that what Simon asked for was something he could observe - spiritual gifts manifested.

 

[awaken]

He is speaking directly to his apostles.


Mark 3:14 ¶ Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Remember, he had many disciples that were baptized and followed him and from which a new apostle was appointed. However, he chose 12 and called them apostles and gave them power to heal the sick. He did not give that power to all his disciples and to argue he did is to simply invalidate the particular calling and empowerment given to the apostles among his disciples:

Mark 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

Furthermore, you ignore the context of FULFILLMENT:

Mk. 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Curious why you left out vs 16-18? Where he said that those that believe what the apostles preached would...be saved, signs will follow..cast out devils; speak with new tongues, take up serpents and drink deadly thing-and it will not hurt them, SHALL LAY HANDS ON THE SICK, AND THEY SHALL RECOVER.

Those scriputures are speaking of the ones that believe the apostles doctrine/preaching.

These are "the signs" of the apostolic office that set them apart from all other disciples (2 Cor. 12:12). It was through their laying on of hands that believers received such spiritual gifts.

Others were able to cast out demons and heal the sick (Luke 10).

This is particularly made clear to those in Rome (Rom. 1:11). Notice that in the list of spiritual gifts in Romans 12 there are NO SIGN GIFTS listed or mentioned and that is precisely why Paul wanted to come to Rome and lay hands on them to impart such sign gifts (Rom. 1:11).

This is exactly what Philip a deacon could not do to those who believed the gospel and were baptized by him. Although the apostles laid hands upon him and conveyed such spiritual gifts (Act 6:5-6) he could not convey them to those discipled. This particular power was what Simon recognized belonged to the apostolic office and attempted to purchase it from them:

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

The definite article is missing in the Greek text indicating that what Simon asked for was something he could observe - spiritual gifts manifested.

Others than the apostles laid hands on people and they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 9:17).
Also two of the five instances where believers received the Holy Ghost, they received without the laying on of hands.

 

[Yeshua1]

How often do you lay hands on and pray?

I'm not talking about "keeping" someone in your prayers, or a prayer list.

How often do you physically lay hands on the sick and command the sickness to go?

We have a pastoral prayer team, which I am a part of, and we do "lay hands" on people regarding illness each Sunday, but we do NOT command the sickness to go, but do ask God to heal them directly IF it be His Will!

 

[The Biblicist]

Curious why you left out vs 16-18? Where he said that those that believe what the apostles preached would...be saved, signs will follow..cast out devils; speak with new tongues, take up serpents and drink deadly thing-and it will not hurt them, SHALL LAY HANDS ON THE SICK, AND THEY SHALL RECOVER.

I covered it in my statement where I said others were enabled by the laying on of apostolic hands.

Others were able to cast out demons and heal the sick (Luke 10).

The first group out of his disciples were the 12 for this power. The second group out of his disciples were 58 more disciples in addition to the 12 or the 70. This should show you that such empowerment was not automatic to all believers but was developmental and still restricted. For example, these 70 were not lay persons but sent to preach two by two. Again, Jesus baptized and made more disciples than John and yet the vast majority was not given such power.

Moreover, both groups received that power directly from Christ PRIOR to Pentecost, however, only the apostolic office was gifted or enabled to impart it to others AFTER Pentecost as one of the "signs" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12).

Others than the apostles laid hands on people and they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 9:17)

There is not one word about any baptism in the Spirit in Acts 9:17 that is complete assumption on your part. A wrong assumption as what happened was no baptism in the Spirit but mere "filling" of the Spirit:

"and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

The baptism in the Spirit was prophetically unfulfilled until the day of Pentecost but being "filled" with the Spirit preceded Pentecost as a common experience so they it is impossible they are one and the same.

Also two of the five instances where believers received the Holy Ghost, they received without the laying on of hands.

Being "filled" with the Holy Spirit is not the same as receiving spiritual gifts or manifesting spiritual gifts. In the case of Corneilus there was direct intervention by God as just getting an apostle to enter his house took three different visions and even then he went with reservations.

Also, when Paul lists the gifts in the congregations at Rome there are no sign gifts listed. Proof that it was not founded by any apostle and Romans 1:11 is proof that such imparting of gifts through apostolic hands was the particular "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12).

 

[awaken]

I covered it in my statement where I said others were enabled by the laying on of apostolic hands.

But this was told to the disciples that this would happen after there preaching to the world. Those that believe (that is also us). Those signs would follow..salvation being just one of them.

The first group out of his disciples were the 12 for this power. The second group out of his disciples were 58 more disciples in addition to the 12 or the 70. This should show you that such empowerment was not automatic to all believers but was developmental and still restricted. For example, these 70 were not lay persons but sent to preach two by two. Again, Jesus baptized and made more disciples than John and yet the vast majority was not given such power.

First, this was before the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost for ALL to receive. The Holy Spirit came upon many people in the OT with signs and wonders, but it was not permanent.
Second...the seventy were sent out to heal the sick vs. 9; They also cast out demons vs. 17. I love verse 19 of Luke 10 because it sheds light to Mark 16 concerning the snakes and scorpions.

Are you referring to water baptizing here? Can you share what scripture you are referring to? ...and again, that was before the Day of Pentecost.

Moreover, both groups received that power directly from Christ PRIOR to Pentecost, however, only the apostolic office was gifted or enabled to impart it to others AFTER Pentecost as one of the "signs" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12). Really, only the apostles could impart? Where is that? I can show you one that imparted HS and he was not an apostle.

There is not one word about any baptism in the Spirit in Acts 9:17 that is complete assumption on your part. A wrong assumption as what happened was no baptism in the Spirit but mere "filling" of the Spirit:

"and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

The baptism in the Spirit was prophetically unfulfilled until the day of Pentecost but being "filled" with the Spirit preceded Pentecost as a common experience so they it is impossible they are one and the same.

So was Paul infilled on the road to Damascus, or when Ananias laid hands on him? Where in scriptures does it say that someone HAS to lay hands on you in order to be filled? What was the purpose here of Ananias laying hands on Paul?

Being "filled" with the Holy Spirit is not the same as receiving spiritual gifts or manifesting spiritual gifts. In the case of Corneilus there was direct intervention by God as just getting an apostle to enter his house took three different visions and even then he went with reservations.

Where does it say he went with reservations? So when do you believe that Paul recieved the Baptism of the Holy Spirit..which by the way is done by Jesus himself?

Also, when Paul lists the gifts in the congregations at Rome there are no sign gifts listed. Proof that it was not founded by any apostle and Romans 1:11 is proof that such imparting of gifts through apostolic hands was the particular "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12).

No, imparting of the spiritual gifts is done by the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is done by Jesus. Acts 2..no one laid hands on them! Acts 10 no one laid hands on them...etc. You do not have to have hands laid on you to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

All the gifts are not listed in every listing each time. But that does not prove that the HS does not manifest himself in that way anymore!

 

[The Biblicist]

But this was told to the disciples that this would happen after there preaching to the world. Those that believe (that is also us). Those signs would follow..salvation being just one of them.

Exactly! The Apostles were not gifted with the ability to impart spriitual gifts by laying on of their hands until AFTER Pentcost. They could not do this BEFORE Pentecost.

First, this was before the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost for ALL to receive.

Exactly! That is why Christ had to directly communicate the power to heal unto them and that is why they could not convey it to others. Only AFTER Pentecost could the apostles convey sign gifts to others (Rom. 1:11; Acts 8:17-19; etc.).

The Holy Spirit came upon many people in the OT with signs and wonders, but it was not permanent.

What is your point? We are talking about being "FILLED" with the Spirit and that was actual and real BEFORE and AFTER Pentecost but the "baptism in the Spirit" was not previous to Pentest and so they are not to be confused with each other and that is precisely what you are doing.

Second...the seventy were sent out to heal the sick vs. 9; They also cast out demons vs. 17. I love verse 19 of Luke 10 because it sheds light to Mark 16 concerning the snakes and scorpions.

Never denied that. But Christ restricted this to a limited number of disciples before Pentecost or else the numbering (12, 70) is meaningless. AFTER Pentecost there is NO RECORD of anyone performing miracles but the apostles until they laid their hands upon seven men in Acts 6 and laid their hands upon those in Acts 8 and etc. This was the pecular "sign" that distinguished the apostolic office AFTER PENTECOST (2 Cor. 12:12).

Are you referring to water baptizing here? Can you share what scripture you are referring to? ...and again, that was before the Day of Pentecost.

- John 4:1-2; Luke 7:29-30.

Really, only the apostles could impart? Where is that? I can show you one that imparted HS and he was not an apostle.

No believers are performing miracles, signs and wonders but the 12 from Acts 2-5. Beginning in Acts 6 AFTER laying on of apostolic hands do any other Christians perform miracles signs and wonders. However, they cannot communicate such sign gifts to others but only through apostolic laying on of hands are the gifts of the Spirit received (Acts 8:17-19;19:6; Rom. 1:11).

The churches in Rome have no spiritual sign gifts (Rom. 12) and an apostle wishes to come to them as one particular reason (Rom. 1:11). Such an ability is the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12).

So was Paul infilled on the road to Damascus, or when Ananias laid hands on him?

Filling is NEVER permenant but is something we must habitually seek (Eph. 5:18). Whenever, we sin or walk "after the flesh" we need to be "filled" again. It is the Holy Spirit that fills us = controls us - and it is through willful submission and by faith we are filled.

Where in scriptures does it say that someone HAS to lay hands on you in order to be filled? What was the purpose here of Ananias laying hands on Paul?

Tradition has it that Ananias was the Pastor of the congregation at Damascus. The context shows that Paul was not merely meeting with Ananias but with "the brethren." The churches met in homes (Rom. 16) and generally in the home of the Pastor. Ananias was obeying what Christ explicitlly told him to do in order to fulfill a vision that Christ gave to Saul. Hence, laying on of hands was fulfillment of this vision.

Where does it say he went with reservations? So when do you believe that Paul recieved the Baptism of the Holy Spirit..which by the way is done by Jesus himself?

1. God had to show him the vision three times and then rebuke him for his reluctance.

2. He immediately told Corneilus he was not to even enter his house but only did because of God's rebuke.

3. He took other brethren with him and appealed to them first before baptizing them and that appeal was based upon God taking public action to first confirm them in the presence of Jews.

No, imparting of the spiritual gifts is done by the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is done by Jesus. Acts 2..no one laid hands on them! Acts 10 no one laid hands on them...etc. You do not have to have hands laid on you to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Please find any persons performing miracles, signs and wonders but the apostles in Acts chapters two through Acts chapter five?

All the gifts are not listed in every listing each time. But that does not prove that the HS does not manifest himself in that way anymore!

In other words, Romans 1:11 is worthless since you ASSUME they had what is never stated in Romans 12 where Paul explicitly describes what they did have???

 

[awaken]

Exactly! The Apostles were not gifted with the ability to impart spriitual gifts by laying on of their hands until AFTER Pentcost. They could not do this BEFORE Pentecost.

But Mark does not say anywhere that the Apostles would lay hands on someone to receive the Holy Spirit. Just to receive healing, and that is for everyone that believes the preaching of the gospe.

Exactly! That is why Christ had to directly communicate the power to heal unto them and that is why they could not convey it to others. Only AFTER Pentecost could the apostles convey sign gifts to others (Rom. 1:11; Acts 8:17-19; etc.).

But Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit, not the apostles! In Acts 2 no one laid hands on them to receive. In Acts 10 no one laid hands on them to receive etc.

What is your point? We are talking about being "FILLED" with the Spirit and that was actual and real BEFORE and AFTER Pentecost but the "baptism in the Spirit" was not previous to Pentest and so they are not to be confused with each other and that is precisely what you are doing.

In Acts 8:17 It says they laid hands on them so that they would receive the Holy Spirit it does not say the infilling. So what happen in verses 12 when they believed and were baptized? Why did they have to come down and lay hands on them to receive the Holy spirit?

Never denied that. But Christ restricted this to a limited number of disciples before Pentecost or else the numbering (12, 70) is meaningless. AFTER Pentecost there is NO RECORD of anyone performing miracles but the apostles until they laid their hands upon seven men in Acts 6 and laid their hands upon those in Acts 8 and etc. This was the pecular "sign" that distinguished the apostolic office AFTER PENTECOST (2 Cor. 12:12).

Are you saying that some could do miracles other than the apostles? I am getting confused on what you believe here?

- John 4:1-2; Luke 7:29-30.

but vs. 2 says that Jesus did not baptize anyone..just his disciples did.

No believers are performing miracles, signs and wonders but the 12 from Acts 2-5. Beginning in Acts 6 AFTER laying on of apostolic hands do any other Christians perform miracles signs and wonders. However, they cannot communicate such sign gifts to others but only through apostolic laying on of hands are the gifts of the Spirit received (Acts 8:17-19;19:6; Rom. 1:11).

ok...so you are saying only the apostles have the power to pass down miracles manifestations of the Holy Spirit?

The churches in Rome have no spiritual sign gifts (Rom. 12) and an apostle wishes to come to them as one particular reason (Rom. 1:11). Such an ability is the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12).

I agree that signs and wonders are a sign of an apostle. And I think we both agree that more than the apostles did miracles...so what is your point?

Filling is NEVER permenant but is something we must habitually seek (Eph. 5:18). Whenever, we sin or walk "after the flesh" we need to be "filled" again. It is the Holy Spirit that fills us = controls us - and it is through willful submission and by faith we are filled.

I agree with the fact that when we are filled..the Holy Spirit controls us more than the flesh. But I was asking what happen to Paul on the road to Damascus? Why did Ananias have to lay hands on him? Why did they have to lay hands on the ones in Acts 8? They were both saved (Paul and the Samaritians) before they laid hands on them, right?

Tradition has it that Ananias was the Pastor of the congregation at Damascus. The context shows that Paul was not merely meeting with Ananias but with "the brethren." The churches met in homes (Rom. 16) and generally in the home of the Pastor. Ananias was obeying what Christ explicitlly told him to do in order to fulfill a vision that Christ gave to Saul. Hence, laying on of hands was fulfillment of this vision.

So it would be safe to say we can not put God in a box...others can lay hands on people if God calls them to?

I will answer the rest later..got to go~!

 

[awaken]

1. God had to show him the vision three times and then rebuke him for his reluctance.

Ok, that was at Corneilus house. I thought you were speaking of Paul being reluctant to go to Ananias.

2. He immediately told Corneilus he was not to even enter his house but only did because of God's rebuke
3. He took other brethren with him and appealed to them first before baptizing them and that appeal was based upon God taking public action to first confirm them in the presence of Jews.

again,I thought you were speaking of Ananias.

Please find any persons performing miracles, signs and wonders but the apostles in Acts chapters two through Acts chapter five?

Phillip in Acts 8:6 is the one I was referring to, but it was after chapter 5.

In other words, Romans 1:11 is worthless since you ASSUME they had what is never stated in Romans 12 where Paul explicitly describes what they did have???

No, I believe some gifts can be imparted by laying on of hands. Just like Romans 1:11 says. But the scriptures do not limit it to the laying on of hands.