Who/What is the "Whore of babylon"?

[The Biblicist]

Again, we've had this discussion before:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1742188#post1742188

You could no more reply then as now except by insults. Your reasons are historically flawed and Biblically inaccurate and again I provide the reasons and again you cannot respond except by insults and sarcaisms which advertise who is really ignorant on this subject as that is your first and last line of defense.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Who is the whore of Babylon? The Apostle John foresaw in revelation!

The United States and our system of bigger better faster more. We have sold it and forced it on the rest of the world as no other.

 

[The Biblicist]

The United States and our system of bigger better faster more. We have sold it and forced it on the rest of the world as no other.

So you believe she is not a "city" and the US ruled over the kings of the earth when John wrote this - Rev. 17:18?

 

[The Biblicist]

So you believe she is not a "city" and the US ruled over the kings of the earth when John wrote this - Rev. 17:18?

I have got to go run errands and I really don't know when I will get back on. So if I don't answer it is because I am not home. I know some of you will miss me terribly [lol] but Lord willing I will be back.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Be careful

 

[kyredneck]

Again, Jerusalem....

Let's forget The Harlot (unfaithful wife of Jehovah) for the moment; do you agree with Overby's interpretation of the seven heads?:

“The 7 kings each represent a kingdom or political power over which they reign. “7 heads”, “7 mountains”, “7 kings”, all point to the same truth, that there are 7 political powers which in order will control the beast government of Satan. Egypt was the first of the 7, followed in order by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Germanic tribes. Each is represented by a head, a mountain, a king.”

“The beasts representing the governments of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, (Rome is first ruled by the Caesars and then the Germanic tribes) have been presented describing them in a very general way......”

“The ten horns represent kings and their kingdoms which will take over the kingdom of Rome. Ten Germanic tribes did this. They were the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards.”

 

[The Biblicist]

Let's forget The Harlot (unfaithful wife of Jehovah) for the moment; do you agree with Overby's interpretation of the seven heads?:

“The 7 kings each represent a kingdom or political power over which they reign. “7 heads”, “7 mountains”, “7 kings”, all point to the same truth, that there are 7 political powers which in order will control the beast government of Satan. Egypt was the first of the 7, followed in order by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Germanic tribes. Each is represented by a head, a mountain, a king.”

“The beasts representing the governments of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, (Rome is first ruled by the Caesars and then the Germanic tribes) have been presented describing them in a very general way......”

“The ten horns represent kings and their kingdoms which will take over the kingdom of Rome. Ten Germanic tribes did this. They were the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards.”

I respect and love Bro. Ed and we have been friends for many years but I do not agree with his view of Revelation.

First, the idea of "ten" germanic tribes is really not historical accurate. Here is an alphabetical list of various germanic tribes:

The Alphabetic List of The German Tribes
A

Adogit, Aelvaeones, Aeragnaricii, Ahelmil, Alamanni or Alemanni,

Ambrones, Ampsivarii or Ampsivari, Angles, Angrivarii or

Angrivari, Arochi, Augandzi, Avarpi, Aviones

B

Baemi, Banochaemae, Batavii or Batavi today known by Batavians,

Batini, Bavarii, Bergio, Brisgavi, Brondings, Bructeri, Burgundiones, Buri

C

Calucones, Canninefates, Casuari, Caritni, Chaedini, Chaemae, Chaetuori,

Chali, Chamavi, Charudes, Chasuarii, Chattuarii, Chauci, Cherusci,

Chatti, Cobandi, Condrusi, Corconti, Curiones

D

Danduti, Dani, Dauciones, Diduni, Dulgubnii, Dutch, Danes

E

Eburones, English, Eudoses, Eunixi, Evagre,

F

Faroese, Favonae, Fervir, Finni, Firaesi, Flemish,

Forsi, Franks, Frisians, Fundusi, Fischer

G

Gall-Gaidheal, Gambrivii, Gauthigoth,

Geats, Gepidae, Goths, Gutar Grannii

H

Hallin, Harii, Harudes, Hasdingi, Helisii, Helveconae,

Heruli, Hermunduri, Hilleviones, Horder

I

Ingriones, Ingvaeones (North Sea Germans), Intuergi, Irminones

(Elbe Germans), Istvaeones (Rhine-Weser Germans) Icelanders

J

Jutes, Juthungi

L

Lacringi, Landi, Lemovii, Levoni, Lombards

or Langobardes, Liothida, Lugii

M

Manimi, Marcomanni, Marsi, Marsaci, Marsigni,

Marvingi, Mattiaci, Mixi, Mugilones

N

Naharvali, Narisci or Naristi, Nemetes, Nertereanes,

Nervii, Njars, Norn, Nuitones, Norwegians

O

Ostrogoths, Otingis

P

Pharodini

Q

Quadi

R

Racatae, Racatriae, Ranii, Raumarici, Reudigni, Rugii, Ruticli

S

Sabalingi, Saxons, Scirii, Scots, Segni, Semnoni or Semnones,

Sibini, Sidini, Sigulones, Silingi, Sitones, Suarini or Suardones,

Suebi or Suevi, Suetidi, Suiones, Sugambri

T

Taetel, Tencteri, Teuriochaemae, Teutonoari, Teutons, Theustes, Thuringii,

Toxandri, Treveri, Triboci, Tubanti, Tungri, Turcilingi, Turoni

U

Ubii, Ulmerugi, Usipetes, Usipi or Usippi

V

Vagoth, Vandals, Vangiones, Vargiones, Varini, Varisci,

Vinoviloth, Viruni, Visburgi, Visigoths, Vispi

Z

Zumi

The more accurate historical interpretation is that secular Rome was subjected and replaced by APOSTATE CHRISTIAN Rome which divided into a Western and Eastern division (two legs) which have dominated both the Eastern and Western civilizations and from each division there will arise five predominate kingdoms that will unite under the Antichrist to make war against Christ at the end of this age.

 

[LadyEagle]

Who/What is the "Whore of babylon"?
The Apostle John foresaw in revelation!

Washington, DC.

Washington D.C.'s original name was Rome, Maryland. Washington D.C. has 7 hills, whose names are: Capitol Hill, Meridian Hill, Floral Hills, Forest Hills, Hillbrook, Hillcrest, and Knox Hill.

 

[The Biblicist]

Washington, DC.

Washington D.C.'s original name was Rome, Maryland. Washington D.C. has 7 hills, whose names are: Capitol Hill, Meridian Hill, Floral Hills, Forest Hills, Hillbrook, Hillcrest, and Knox Hill.

That is interesting information. However, the city John refers to was presently existing when he spoke. He uses the present tense.

 

[LadyEagle]

That is interesting information. However, the city John refers to was presently existing when he spoke. He uses the present tense.

Actually, he uses the past tense - "I saw," "he carried," etc. But the tense has nothing to do with it. In relationship to Washington, DC, note verse 15 and verse 18.

17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

 

[The Biblicist]

Actually, he uses the past tense - "I saw," "he carried," etc.

He uses the present tense "is" in verse 17 or the Greek term "estin.' He previously "saw" it in the vision but the explanation is what defines it as a present reality not that he had previously viewed it in the vision. Washington D.C. was not in existence but that city which John previously "saw" presently existed when John wrote his revelation.



Rome, Italy not only has seven hills but archeology has produced ancient coins depiciting Rome as a lady holding a cup sitting on seven hills.

 

[kyredneck]

Let's forget The Harlot (unfaithful wife of Jehovah) for the moment; do you agree with Overby's interpretation of the seven heads?:

“The 7 kings each represent a kingdom or political power over which they reign. “7 heads”, “7 mountains”, “7 kings”, all point to the same truth, that there are 7 political powers which in order will control the beast government of Satan. Egypt was the first of the 7, followed in order by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Germanic tribes. Each is represented by a head, a mountain, a king.”

“The beasts representing the governments of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, (Rome is first ruled by the Caesars and then the Germanic tribes) have been presented describing them in a very general way......”

“The ten horns represent kings and their kingdoms which will take over the kingdom of Rome. Ten Germanic tribes did this. They were the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards.”

I respect and love Bro. Ed and we have been friends for many years but I do not agree with his view of Revelation.

I've never met the man but know three of his former students that speak highly of him, and I have two of his commentaries that were recommended by them. I believe his view on Revelation would be classified as Premillenial Historicist. This portion of 'Historicist framework' he holds to is indeed just that, historical and factual, IT HAPPENED!.

First, the idea of "ten" germanic tribes is really not historical accurate. Here is an alphabetical list of various germanic tribes:

I think it's disingenuous on your part to try to discredit the interpretation from this angle.

And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9:26

Were all descendants of Shem intended? Or was it Israel?

God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9:27

Were all descendants of Japheth intended? Or was it more specific?

The more accurate historical interpretation is that secular Rome was subjected and replaced by APOSTATE CHRISTIAN Rome which divided into a Western and Eastern division (two legs) which have dominated both the Eastern and Western civilizations and from each division there will arise five predominate kingdoms that will unite under the Antichrist to make war against Christ at the end of this age.

The problem with the futurist view is that it is rife with speculation. The true blessing in the book of Revelation is that it is the capstone of the entire bible, and there's no other way to approach the book than through the rest of scripture. Revelation is continually nonstop pointing back to what has already been written. The underlying continuity of the scriptures is never broken. To correctly study Revelation is to study all the scripture. Example, Rev 12 is nothing short of a 'picture story' of Gen 3:15, the seed germ of all prophecy (as Pink referred to it):

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1878929#post1878929 Excerpt:

“Seventh head Teutons:

In Daniel 2 it was foretold that in the latter days 'a stone' [Christ] was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon its feet that were of iron and clay [Roman Empire], and brake them in pieces. Two feet, ten toes; read Eastern and Western Roman Empire and the ten Germanic tribes, the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards. Rome was first ruled by the Caesars and later by the Germanic tribes. These are also the ten horns of the seventh head of Revelation and the ten horns of the fourth beast of Daniel. These ten kings were to make war with the Lamb (His Church), and to hate the Harlot (Rev 17 apostate Judaism), eat her flesh, and burn her with fire (see Lev 26 & Dt 28, Hitler would probably be the personification of one of these horns).”

 

[The Biblicist]

I've never met the man but know three of his former students that speak highly of him, and I have two of his commentaries that were recommended by them. I believe his view on Revelation would be classified as Premillenial Historicist. This portion of 'Historicist framework' he holds to is indeed just that, historical and factual, IT HAPPENED!.

That is precisely what he himself regards his view as - "historical premillenial."

I think it's disingenuous on your part to try to discredit the interpretation from this angle.

I am sorry that you think the actual historical facts are disingeneous. I know of no time in history there has been exactly and only ten germanic tribes. Moreover, ten tribes did not overthrow Rome in 476 A.D. That is simply not historically factual.

However, it is historically factual that Apostate Religious Rome took over the Roman Empire and as depicted in the Daniel image was divided into the Eastern and Roman Empire under the Eastern and Roman Catholic Church. It is factually true that kings and kingdoms of the whole world submitted to their religious authority and still do to this day.

Another problem with your whole response here is that the second coming of Christ is an HISTORICAL event with a HISTORICAL time table and THAT HAS NOT YET HAPPENED. Revelation is HISTORICAL and it provides in Revelation 17 and other places a HISTORICAL order of events right up to the HISTORICAL second Advent. So your "historical" argument against a futuristic view is really disingeneous.

 

[kyredneck]

That is precisely what he himself regards his view as - "historical premillenial."

Are you sure it's not Premillenial Historicist? The two share some similarities but are not the same. At least one of his students referred to his view specifically as 'historicist'.

I am sorry that you think the actual historical facts are disingeneous. I know of no time in history there has been exactly and only ten germanic tribes. Moreover, ten tribes did not overthrow Rome in 476 A.D. That is simply not historically factual.

I said it was YOU, YOUR TACTICS, that was disingeneous, and moreover you are distorting, changing, and adding to what I said.

Once again:

And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9:26

Were all descendants of Shem intended? Or was it Israel?

God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9:27

Were all descendants of Japheth intended? Or was it more specific?

However, it is historically factual that Apostate Religious Rome took over the Roman Empire and as depicted in the Daniel image was divided into the Eastern and Roman Empire under the Eastern and Roman Catholic Church.

The Holy Roman Empire would be the 'continuation' of Rome. It was comprised of TEUTONIC NATIONS.

It is factually true that kings and kingdoms of the whole world submitted to their religious authority and still do to this day.

I believe the Reformation has broken the power of Rome, and it's Gog and Magog that holds sway now.

Another problem with your whole response here is that the second coming of Christ is an HISTORICAL event with a HISTORICAL time table and THAT HAS NOT YET HAPPENED. Revelation is HISTORICAL and it provides in Revelation 17 and other places a HISTORICAL order of events right up to the HISTORICAL second Advent. So your "historical" argument against a futuristic view is really disingeneous.

And there you go again, adding to what I said. I never mentioned 'the second coming'. But, while we're on the topic, I've no problem with these scriptures, I believe Chist meant exactly what He said:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

Heheh, do the dance Doc, explain it away.....

Strain out the gnat, swallow the camel....

 

[The Biblicist]

Are you sure it's not Premillenial Historicist? The two share some similarities but are not the same. At least one of his students referred to his view specifically as 'historicist'.

You are correct. A slip of the keyboard. He is a Premillennial Historicist.

I said it was YOU, YOUR TACTICS, that was disingeneous,

By simply pointing out the actual historical truth? Really?

Once again:

And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9:26

Were all descendants of Shem intended? Or was it Israel?

I really don't believe Israel or any other specific descendant of Shem is in view but all of Shem's other descendants are in view in contrast to Canaan and his discendants. This is merely a General statement without specific historical application. God named "shem" but did not name the "ten" kings in Revelation. God named "Canaan" but did not name the "ten" kings in Revelation.

The Holy Roman Empire would be the 'continuation' of Rome. It was comprised of TEUTONIC NATIONS.

Only in PART! The Eastern leg of the Roman Empire included the Greeks and Northern tribes.

I believe the Reformation has broken the power of Rome, and it's Gog and Magog that holds sway now.

The power of Rome as a secular entity was broken in 476 A.D. The power of Rome as religious entity has never been broken and the Reformation is merely her daughters "mother of harlots."

And there you go again, adding to what I said. I never mentioned 'the second coming'. But, while we're on the topic, I've no problem with these scriptures, I believe Chist meant exactly what He said:

Not at all! You were the one who emphasized that the book of Revelation has a HISTORICAL emphasis in contrast to a FUTURISTIC application and I simply agreed that its HISTORICAL emphasis continues FUTURISTIC to the coming of Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

Believe it or not this is precisely on topic with the OP:

14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

How was this prophecy from the 'eternal realm' manifested in this 'temporal realm'?

Who killed Christ?

 

[kyredneck]

....I really don't believe Israel or any other specific descendant of Shem is in view but all of Shem's other descendants are in view in contrast to Canaan and his discendants. This is merely a General statement without specific historical application. God named "shem" but did not name the "ten" kings in Revelation. God named "Canaan" but did not name the "ten" kings in Revelation....

Wrong.

"God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem..."

...is synonymous with:

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:43

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

 

[The Biblicist]

Wrong.

"God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem..."

...is synonymous with:

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:43

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

I really do not see any connection whatsoever between what God said about Canaan and your New Testament quotations.

 

[kyredneck]

I really do not see any connection whatsoever between what God said about Canaan and your New Testament quotations.

Noah's Prophecy:

25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant.
27 God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9

Pink on Noah's prophecy:

"The fulfillment of Noah’s prophecy. The wonderful prediction uttered by the builder of the Ark gives in a few brief sentences the history of the new world, and shows the positions that were delegated by God to the three great divisions of the human family. In the closing verses of Genesis 9 we have a remarkable unfolding of the future destinies of the new humanity. The various parts which are to be played in human history by its leading characters are now made known. The subjection of one, the religious preeminence of the second, and the enlarging of the third head of the postdiluvian race, is here revealed.

"Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren" (v. 25). Above, we intimated that as no blessing at all was pronounced upon Ham as was the ease with each of his brothers, it would seem that the curse was not intended to be limited to Canaan (there being a particular reason why Canaan should be thus singled out, namely, as an encouragement to the Israelites,) but included all of his children. By tracing the history of Ham’s other sons it becomes evident that the scope of Noah’s prophecy reached beyond Canaan. Nimrod sprang from Ham through Cush (Gen. 10:6-8), and he founded the city and empire Babylon. Mizraim was another of Ham’s children and he was the father of the Egyptians (Gen. 10:6 and Ps. 78:51). For a time Babylon and Egypt waxed great, but subsequently both of them were reduced to subjection, first by the Persians who descended from Shem, and later by the Greeks and Romans who were the children of Japheth. And from these early subjugations they have never recovered themselves. The whole of Africa was peopled by the descendants of Ham, and for many centuries the greater part of that continent lay under the dominion of the Romans, Saracens, and Turks. And, as is well known, the Negroes who were for so long the slaves of Europeans and Americans, also claim Ham as their progenitor.

"Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant" (v. 26). Two things are promised here: Jehovah was to be the God of Shem and Canaan was to be his servant. Shem was "the father of all the children of Eber," that is, the Hebrews (Gen. 10:21). Thus, in the Hebrews, the knowledge and worship of God was preserved in the family of Shem. The fulfillment of this part of the prophecy is well known to our readers. God was in a peculiar sense the God of the Hebrews—"And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God" (Ex. 29:45). And again, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2).

"And Canaan shall be his (Shem’s) servant." This received its first fulfillment in the days of Joshua—"And Joshua made them (the Gibeonites) hewers of wood and drawers of water for the congregation" (Joshua 9:27). The following scriptures set forth its further accomplishment: "And it came to pass, when Israel was strong, that they put the Canaanites to tribute" (Judges 1:28). "And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel, their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bond service unto this day" (1 Kings 9:20, 21).

"God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" (v. 27). Two things were also predicted of Japheth: first, he should be enlarged; second, he should dwell in the tents of Shem or, in other words, should receive blessing from Shem. The accomplishment of this prediction is witnessed to by history both sacred and secular. Those nations which have been most enlarged by God have descended from Japheth. The Greeks and the Romans who in their time dominated practically all of the then known world; and more recently the European Powers who have entered into the rich possessions of Asia (inhabited by the children of Shem); and, today, the Anglo-Saxon race, which occupies more territory than any other people, are all the descendants of Noah’s firstborn! In Genesis 10, where a list of Japheth’s sons is found, we read, "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands."

"And he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" intimates that Japheth was to be Shem’s guest, that he should share the rest and shelter of Shem’s tabernacles. How remarkably has this prophecy been fulfilled spiritually! "The revelation which we prize is that of the God of Israel; the Savior in whom we trust is the seed of Abraham; the Old Testament was written principally for Israel; and the New Testament though written in a Japhetic tongue, and, therefore for us, was penned by Jewish fingers" (Urquhart). To this may be added the words of our Lord, "Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22); and that remarkable statement of the Apostle Paul’s in Romans 11 where, writing of the Gentiles, he says, "And thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them (Israel), and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree" (v. 17). Thus do we see Japheth "dwelling in the tents of Shem."

Who but He who knows the end from the beginning could have outlined the whole course of the three great divisions of the postdiluvian race so tersely and so accurately!

"In the curse passed upon Canaan we find an exceedingly solemn instance of the sins of the fathers being visited upon the children. In this day of human pride and skepticism, when everything is questioned and challenged, men have dared to criticize the ethics of this hereditary law. It has been termed unmerciful and unjust. The humble believer does not attempt to pry into things which are too deep for him, it is enough for him that the thrice holy God has instituted this law and therefore he knows it is a righteous one whether he can see the justice of it or no.

Ham’s sin consisted of an utter failure to honor his father. He was lacking, altogether, in filial love. Had he really cared for his father at all he would have acted as his brothers did; but instead, he manifested a total disrespect for and subjection unto his parent. And mark the fearful consequence: he reaped exactly as he had sown—Ham sinned as a son and was punished in his son! The punishment meted out to Ham was that his son shall be brought into subjection to others, his descendants shall be compelled to honor, yea, "serve" others—"servant of servants" (v. 25) implies the lowest drudgery, slavery.

It is to be noted that the "curse" uttered by Noah did not fall directly on Ham but upon one of his sons, the fourth—"Canaan " (Gen. 10:6). As we shall seek to show, this curse was not confined to Canaan but embraced all the descendants of Ham. It is highly probable that "Canaan" was specifically singled out from the rest of his brethren as a special encouragement to the Israelites who, centuries later, were to go up and occupy the Promised land. Moses would thus be taught by the Holy Spirit that a special curse rested upon the then occupants of the land, i.e., the Canaanites. Yet, as we have said, all of Ham’s children appear to have been included within the scope of this malediction as is evident from the fact that no blessing at all was pronounced upon Ham as was the case with each of his brothers."
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pi...genesis_15.htm

 

[The Biblicist]

Noah's Prophecy:

25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant.
27 God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9

Pink on Noah's prophecy:

"The fulfillment of Noah’s prophecy. The wonderful prediction uttered by the builder of the Ark gives in a few brief sentences the history of the new world, and shows the positions that were delegated by God to the three great divisions of the human family. In the closing verses of Genesis 9 we have a remarkable unfolding of the future destinies of the new humanity. The various parts which are to be played in human history by its leading characters are now made known. The subjection of one, the religious preeminence of the second, and the enlarging of the third head of the postdiluvian race, is here revealed.

"Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren" (v. 25). Above, we intimated that as no blessing at all was pronounced upon Ham as was the ease with each of his brothers, it would seem that the curse was not intended to be limited to Canaan (there being a particular reason why Canaan should be thus singled out, namely, as an encouragement to the Israelites,) but included all of his children. By tracing the history of Ham’s other sons it becomes evident that the scope of Noah’s prophecy reached beyond Canaan. Nimrod sprang from Ham through Cush (Gen. 10:6-8), and he founded the city and empire Babylon. Mizraim was another of Ham’s children and he was the father of the Egyptians (Gen. 10:6 and Ps. 78:51). For a time Babylon and Egypt waxed great, but subsequently both of them were reduced to subjection, first by the Persians who descended from Shem, and later by the Greeks and Romans who were the children of Japheth. And from these early subjugations they have never recovered themselves. The whole of Africa was peopled by the descendants of Ham, and for many centuries the greater part of that continent lay under the dominion of the Romans, Saracens, and Turks. And, as is well known, the Negroes who were for so long the slaves of Europeans and Americans, also claim Ham as their progenitor.

"Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant" (v. 26). Two things are promised here: Jehovah was to be the God of Shem and Canaan was to be his servant. Shem was "the father of all the children of Eber," that is, the Hebrews (Gen. 10:21). Thus, in the Hebrews, the knowledge and worship of God was preserved in the family of Shem. The fulfillment of this part of the prophecy is well known to our readers. God was in a peculiar sense the God of the Hebrews—"And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God" (Ex. 29:45). And again, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2).

"And Canaan shall be his (Shem’s) servant." This received its first fulfillment in the days of Joshua—"And Joshua made them (the Gibeonites) hewers of wood and drawers of water for the congregation" (Joshua 9:27). The following scriptures set forth its further accomplishment: "And it came to pass, when Israel was strong, that they put the Canaanites to tribute" (Judges 1:28). "And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel, their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bond service unto this day" (1 Kings 9:20, 21).

"God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" (v. 27). Two things were also predicted of Japheth: first, he should be enlarged; second, he should dwell in the tents of Shem or, in other words, should receive blessing from Shem. The accomplishment of this prediction is witnessed to by history both sacred and secular. Those nations which have been most enlarged by God have descended from Japheth. The Greeks and the Romans who in their time dominated practically all of the then known world; and more recently the European Powers who have entered into the rich possessions of Asia (inhabited by the children of Shem); and, today, the Anglo-Saxon race, which occupies more territory than any other people, are all the descendants of Noah’s firstborn! In Genesis 10, where a list of Japheth’s sons is found, we read, "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands."

"And he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" intimates that Japheth was to be Shem’s guest, that he should share the rest and shelter of Shem’s tabernacles. How remarkably has this prophecy been fulfilled spiritually! "The revelation which we prize is that of the God of Israel; the Savior in whom we trust is the seed of Abraham; the Old Testament was written principally for Israel; and the New Testament though written in a Japhetic tongue, and, therefore for us, was penned by Jewish fingers" (Urquhart). To this may be added the words of our Lord, "Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22); and that remarkable statement of the Apostle Paul’s in Romans 11 where, writing of the Gentiles, he says, "And thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them (Israel), and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree" (v. 17). Thus do we see Japheth "dwelling in the tents of Shem."

Who but He who knows the end from the beginning could have outlined the whole course of the three great divisions of the postdiluvian race so tersely and so accurately!

"In the curse passed upon Canaan we find an exceedingly solemn instance of the sins of the fathers being visited upon the children. In this day of human pride and skepticism, when everything is questioned and challenged, men have dared to criticize the ethics of this hereditary law. It has been termed unmerciful and unjust. The humble believer does not attempt to pry into things which are too deep for him, it is enough for him that the thrice holy God has instituted this law and therefore he knows it is a righteous one whether he can see the justice of it or no.

Ham’s sin consisted of an utter failure to honor his father. He was lacking, altogether, in filial love. Had he really cared for his father at all he would have acted as his brothers did; but instead, he manifested a total disrespect for and subjection unto his parent. And mark the fearful consequence: he reaped exactly as he had sown—Ham sinned as a son and was punished in his son! The punishment meted out to Ham was that his son shall be brought into subjection to others, his descendants shall be compelled to honor, yea, "serve" others—"servant of servants" (v. 25) implies the lowest drudgery, slavery.

It is to be noted that the "curse" uttered by Noah did not fall directly on Ham but upon one of his sons, the fourth—"Canaan " (Gen. 10:6). As we shall seek to show, this curse was not confined to Canaan but embraced all the descendants of Ham. It is highly probable that "Canaan" was specifically singled out from the rest of his brethren as a special encouragement to the Israelites who, centuries later, were to go up and occupy the Promised land. Moses would thus be taught by the Holy Spirit that a special curse rested upon the then occupants of the land, i.e., the Canaanites. Yet, as we have said, all of Ham’s children appear to have been included within the scope of this malediction as is evident from the fact that no blessing at all was pronounced upon Ham as was the case with each of his brothers."
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pi...genesis_15.htm

I have no problem seeing the application to both Shem and Japeth in regard to the Jews and Gentiles and Canaan in regard to ALL of his descendents. However, how does that aide your argument concerning the ten kings since these named indivduals included ALL their descendents but those kings are specfically limited to "ten"? He does not name any germanic tribe by name or even mention any germanic tribes at all. What is the LINK in your argument here? What does Shem, Japeth or Canaan have to do with any of the germanic tribes much less ten specific ones?

Rome was not subdued by TEN germanic tribes.

There was not TEN germanic tribes at any point in history.

Japeth, Shem and Canaan are given by name and they number one each while the kings in Revelation 17 are not given by any name and they number TEN.

The historical fact is that RELIGIOUS Rome first conquerored SECULAR Rome long before the germanic tribes conquered secular Rome.