Predestinated to Faith in Christ !

[The Biblicist]

Adoption cannot be "predestinated" and yet already fulfilled as that is oxymoronic! Since predestination demands an "IN TIME" fullfillment then adoption was fulfilled "IN TIME" not in eternity in any substantive way whatsoever. To claim both is to claim two adoptions.

You are like dealing with a three year old having a tantrum. Now, look at the first sentence above which you perverted into something I did not say by partially quoting my words.

What I said was "adoption cannot be 'predestinated AND YET ALREADY FULFILLED AS THAT IS OXYMORONIC"

I did not say adoption cannot be predestinated! I said you can't have it both ways. It cannot be predestinated and be fulfilled at the same time. If something is predestinated its fulfillment cannot occur until the PREDESTINATED TIME.

However, reason, context makes no difference to a dishonest individual like yourself. Your character reveals who you really are.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

You are like dealing with a three year old having a tantrum.

Insults are not helping your case !

It cannot be predestinated and be fulfilled at the same time.

Who said it was ? Show me the quote where I stated that adoption was predestinated and fulfilled at the same time ? Thats another one of your statements that misrepresents what I have stated, which is dishonesty again .

My point is that Faith in time is a result of predestination, one is predestnated to Faith in Christ ! Now if you can refute that then do it honestly !

 

[The Biblicist]

Who said it was ? Show me the quote where I stated that adoption was predestinated and fulfilled at the same time ?

First, you are admitting that you perverted my words or else you would not now even ask this question but would have simply repeated your false accusation that I said adoption is not predestinated.

Second, you are admitting that adoption cannot be at one and the same time predestinated and already fulfilled as that is oxymoronic.

Third, you have from the beginning stated that sonship, regeneration, justification, and even glorification were already finished before the world began MORE than mere contemplated purpose but in some kind of SUBSTANTIVE reality and everyone on this forum knows that.

However, the concept of "predestination" is oxymoronic with you idea of a Substantive reality/fulfillment before the world began. God's eternal purpose is nothing more than CONTEMPLATIVE purpose without any kind of substantive reality/fulfillment before the world began.

You don't the difference between PURPOSE and FULFILLMENT and God denies in the strongest language possible that He sees His own purpose as ACTUALLY fulfilled in any substantive sense other than contemplative certainty - Isa. 46:11

Now, Isaiah 46:11 is God presenting his own view of his own purpose not me or some human presenting God's view of His purpose as you attempt to malign and abuse the quote in Psalm!

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

First, you are admitting that you perverted my words or else you would not now even ask this question but would have simply repeated your false accusation that I said adoption is not predestinated.

Show me the quote where I stated that adoption was predestinated and fulfilled at the same time ?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by OldRegular
Using the same reasoning you use to show that those predestined to adoption as children are adopted in time as the result of their faith it follows that those predestined to justification are justified in time by their faith.

I know what I posted.



I never said none of that here !

The elect are adopted in time because of Predestination is what I stated Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The following is from the OP. You say using Galatians 3:26. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

Remember, as many as were ordained to Eternal Life believed Acts 13:48 !

That believing is the result of God having predestnated us to the Adoption of Children, that is that our Election and Sonship become known publically by our public Faith in Christ Gal 3:26

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Paul uses the exact same greek word for children here as he did in Eph 1:5, its the word huios and means Son !

The Faith in Christ we have , we [The Sons] were predestinated unto it !

*************************************************************

So you see SBM that you say we are adopted through faith yet deny that faith is required for justification in total denial of Scripture. I present my initial post for your edification and to show that your denial of what I said is untrue!

You have argued previously in another thread that the elect are justified in eternity past while they are yet unsaved. Above you argue that those predestined to adoption as children are adopted in time. You use Romans 8:29 to defend your premise.

You are not only incorrect in your claim of eternal justification you are inconsistent in your use of Scripture. Consider the complete passage from Romans, part of which you quote.

Romans 8:29, 30
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You argue in the OP that the elect are predestined to adoption with adoption occurring in time because of the Faith of the elect.

In the above Scripture, verse 30, we are told that those God predestinates he also justifies. We are told in Romans 5:1 and elsewhere in Scripture:

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Using the same reasoning you use to show that those predestined to adoption as children are adopted in time as the result of their faith it follows that those predestined to justification are justified in time by their faith.

So you see that your claim of eternal justification, that justification precedes both salvation and faith, is false.

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



Now deal with the point of the OP and quit evading it. Do you know what the Point is I am making ?

Quote:
Therefore prior to that time they were IN UNBELIEF! TB

Yes ! But still Sons or Heirs Gal 4:1
- SBM

Look careful at your response to my post above. This was due to the statement in your first post where you said we are predestinated to faith IN TIME and that we were predestinated to adoption IN TIME. You identiifed IN TIME adoption and faith as inseparable events IN TIME according to predestination.

However, when I made the point that IN TIME they were in unbellief prior to IN TIME PREDESTINATED ADOPTION, you responded that they were "still Sons and heirs - Gal. 4:1" during that PERIOD OF UNBELIEF IN TIME prior to faith in time.

Hence, you have them Sons and heirs (adoption) previous to the point in time they were predestinated to be heirs. If as you claim, adoption is predestinated IN TIME, then they cannot be adopted as Sons BEFORE that time as well as after that time. If they are predestinated to adoption IN TIME then it cannot be IN TIME be before as well as after that precise point in time.

I said IN TIME they were unbelievers BEFORE they were believers in time. You responded they were Sons and heirs both BEFORE and AFTER the point of belief. However, you point about predestinated to adoption IN TIME was in regard to predestination to faith IN TIME!

It cannot be both! Either they were predestinated to adoption IN TIME at the point of faith or before faith but not both or else you have TWO different kinds of adoption! One BEFORE faith in time as an unbeliever which you assert in the above post and one AFTER the point of faith in time which you also assert by the words "predestinated to adoption IN TIME."

You have predestinated unto adoption in time already fulfilled in time before faith in time! It cannot be both predestinated to be fulfilled at certain point in time at faith and also before faith already fulfilled.

 

[savedbymercy]

or

The following is from the OP. You say using Galatians 3:26. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

Yes, that is declaratively and openly. I expalined that, you are just not honest enough to bring that part of my post to the forefront !

So you see SBM that you say we are adopted through faith

I did not say that, you do lie. Faith is evidence of Sonship in time. You are like someone else here, that is you like to misrepresent what I have stated.

I never stated one is adopted through faith, thats your decptive imposition you added !

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Look careful at your response to my post above.

I dealt with that in post 4. You have not still dealt with anything I stated point by point in the OP

The point of the OP and the Thread is that the some have been predestinated to Faith in Christ, the proof is Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

That is manifestly so. When an Elect Person believed on Christ in time, it is a manifestation of their Eternal Son ship by Election in Christ before Time.

Adoption is a manifestation of Sonship. That Adoption manifests the Elects Sonship Twice, once when they pubically believe on Christ before many witnesses, and Secondly at the Second Coming it will Be revealed Again by the Redemption of the Body ! Rom 8:23

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Its only one Adoption, but Two Manifestations of phases ! But as Son's originally, all the Elect were placed in Christ before the World began !

Adoption means to place as a Son. That Primarily took Place in Election in The Son Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

So Christ and His Brethren are all of One Heb 2:11

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

 

[OldRegular]

or



Yes, that is declaratively and openly. I expalined that, you are just not honest enough to bring that part of my post to the forefront !



I did not say that, you do lie. Faith is evidence of Sonship in time. You are like someone else here, that is you like to misrepresent what I have stated.

I never stated one is adopted through faith, thats your decptive imposition you added !

I used your own OP to show that your beliefs are contradictory. You are unable to deal with that so you resort to personal attacks. Your beliefs are false, they deny the clear teaching of Scripture. Your insistence on the eternal justification of the elect make the sacrifice of Jesus Christ of no effect. That is pathetic!

 

[Yeshua1]

or



Yes, that is declaratively and openly. I expalined that, you are just not honest enough to bring that part of my post to the forefront !



I did not say that, you do lie. Faith is evidence of Sonship in time. You are like someone else here, that is you like to misrepresent what I have stated.

I never stated one is adopted through faith, thats your decptive imposition you added !

So you hold to the Elect of God are born already reconciled to god and regenerated, and they will show that by placing faith in Jesus?

 

[savedbymercy]

or

I used your own OP to show that your beliefs are contradictory.

You think you did, but you have did nothing but show me more evidence of your rejection to and blindness of the Truth of God !

 

[savedbymercy]

So you hold to the Elect of God are born already reconciled to god and regenerated, and they will show that by placing faith in Jesus?

Where did I say that the elect of God are born already regenerated you liar ? Show us the quote !

 

[OldRegular]

The being conformed to the Image of Christ for the foreknown and predestinated, that process begins at a certain time for each foreknown and predestinated one, which begins at their New Birth, New Birth is of Necessity for the Eternal Purpose to begin their experimental conformity to Christ, and with the New Birth comes the Birth of Faith and Hope 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope [Faith] by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Predestinated to Faith in Christ is taught in scripture for those who have eyes to see it !

You say above: "with the New Birth comes the Birth of Faith and Hope". Yet you insist that "justification precedes the New Birth" in another thread, that "justification is eternal". Your beliefs are totally contradictory. Scripture tells us that until the New Birth:

Ephesians 2:1-3
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Verse 3 tells us that prior to the "New Birth" the elect were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are "the others"? They are the non elect. Until regeneration or the New Birth occurs there is no difference between those chosen by God unto salvation in Jesus Christ and those whom God leaves in their sins! Now you can deny that truth but that is your problem. It is quite obvious that trying to reason with you using Scripture is useless because you do not believe Scripture. You have picked up some devilish beliefs somewhere and will cling to them rather than the Word of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Where did I say that the elect of God are born already regenerated you liar ? Show us the quote !

IF they are already reconciled back to God by the Cross, than they are regenerated by God!

Fir reconcilaition NOT done between God and sinners, they bewcome saints once that has happened!

So per your theology, must be regenerated at birth by God!

 

[savedbymercy]

or

You say above: "with the New Birth comes the Birth of Faith and Hope". Yet you insist that "justification precedes the New Birth" in another thread,

Justification does come before New Birth , Faith and Hope.

The Elect are Justified or reconciled before God by Christ's Death while they are enemies ! Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[savedbymercy]

IF they are already reconciled back to God by the Cross, than they are regenerated by God!

Fir reconcilaition NOT done between God and sinners, they bewcome saints once that has happened!

So per your theology, must be regenerated at birth by God!

Where did I say that the elect of God are born already regenerated you liar ? Show us the quote !

 

[OldRegular]

or



Justification does come before New Birth , Faith and Hope.

The Elect are Justified or reconciled before God by Christ's Death while they are enemies ! Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Your argument in a previous thread was the justification of the elect before their birth, eternal justification. Now you are equating justification and reconciliation so they are reconciled to God before they exist. That sounds like they are "Born Again" before they are even born! I believe Yeshua1 may be on the right track.

Of course you might be like the Mormons and believe we exist as spirit children before we are born? Is that it?

We are the literal spirit children of God

"We believe that he is our Father in heaven, literally; that we are his spirit offspring; that we dwelt with him in the preexistent eternities, were taught by him, saw his face, knew of the terms and conditions that apply to the plan of salvation..."

-Bruce R. McConkie, Conference Talk, pg5, October 3, 1954

http://www.mormonismdisproved.org/spirit_children.html

 

[Yeshua1]

Where did I say that the elect of God are born already regenerated you liar ? Show us the quote !

When are the elect regenerated and reconciled back to God than?

 

[savedbymercy]

or

Your argument in a previous thread was the justification of the elect before their birth, eternal justification.

Please address that in the other thread !

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course you might be like the Mormons and believe we exist as spirit children before we are born? Is that it?



http://www.mormonismdisproved.org/spirit_children.html

You got it! He believes they existed in ACTUAL eternal spiritual union with the very nature of God - polytheism at its core!