Doesn't Hebrews 2:3 Show The Sign Gifts Had Already Ceased?

[DHK]

IMHO Paul has said the same elsewhere.

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:12,13.14

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (Speaking of us being made perfect, in the fulness of Christ, instead of the childlike knowledge we now have.) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child:

DHK

Will there be a moment in the future when we will be made perfect with perfect understanding? When will that be?

Answer those two questions.

When did Paul believe he would be perfect/complete? Phil 3:9-12

How did Jesus himself become the author of eternal salvation; What took place and when? Hebrews 5:1-9

Thread: Doesn't Hebrews 2:3 Show The Sign Gifts Had Already Ceased?

The above is the title of the thread. Please don't derail this thread. It is about "sign gifts" or the gifts of the Spirit.

Three of those gifts are mentioned in 1Cor.13:8


1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

It is quite evident that the apostle Paul is not a gift of the Spirit, though he exercised some of them. The three listed in the above verse are "gifts of the Spirit. One of them is a gift. Here it is simply referred to as "knowledge." It needs further clarification.

My question is: What is the knowledge that is referred to in 1Cor.13:8.
It is quite evident that the answer does not lay in Paul. Paul himself is not "knowledge" in this verse. What is?

 

[awaken]

Thread: Doesn't Hebrews 2:3 Show The Sign Gifts Had Already Ceased?

The above is the title of the thread. Please don't derail this thread. It is about "sign gifts" or the gifts of the Spirit.

Three of those gifts are mentioned in 1Cor.13:8


1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

It is quite evident that the apostle Paul is not a gift of the Spirit, though he exercised some of them. The three listed in the above verse are "gifts of the Spirit. One of them is a gift. Here it is simply referred to as "knowledge." It needs further clarification.

My question is: What is the knowledge that is referred to in 1Cor.13:8.
It is quite evident that the answer does not lay in Paul. Paul himself is not "knowledge" in this verse. What is?

I thought he answered the "knowledge" question :thumbs:

 

[percho]

I thought he answered the "knowledge" question :thumbs:

I thought that was what I was addressing.

 

[DHK]

I thought that was what I was addressing.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (Speaking of us being made perfect, in the fulness of Christ, instead of the childlike knowledge we now have.) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child:

Upon re-reading your post this is what I get from your answer to what is perfect.

But in 13:8 It says knowledge shall vanish away.
To use a child-like example: If I learned how to ride a bike when I was childi that doesn't mean the knowledge of that learning will vanish away. In fact it may even be more complete or perfected as you say, but it will not vanish. Likewise with anything that is childish. I will still remember "childish knowledge." And I will remember it more perfectly. Additional knowledge isn't replacing knowledge; it is just adding to knowledge.

In 13:8 it says knowledge shall pass away--completely! What knowledge will pass away.
Keep in context that Paul is speaking about spiritual gifts. The immediate context is "revelation."

 

[awaken]

Upon re-reading your post this is what I get from your answer to what is perfect.

But in 13:8 It says knowledge shall vanish away.
To use a child-like example: If I learned how to ride a bike when I was childi that doesn't mean the knowledge of that learning will vanish away. In fact it may even be more complete or perfected as you say, but it will not vanish. Likewise with anything that is childish. I will still remember "childish knowledge." And I will remember it more perfectly. Additional knowledge isn't replacing knowledge; it is just adding to knowledge.

In 13:8 it says knowledge shall pass away--completely! What knowledge will pass away.
Keep in context that Paul is speaking about spiritual gifts. The immediate context is "revelation."

So you believe our knowledge of everything that happened here on earth will follow us in the life after? All the pain...etc?
You keep missing the point of WHEN it will pass away..and that is what Percho explained!

 

[DHK]

So you believe our knowledge of everything that happened here on earth will follow us in the life after? All the pain...etc?
You keep missing the point of WHEN it will pass away..and that is what Percho explained!

Earthly knowledge will pass away? Will it?
At the rapture we will go to heaven. After seven years we will return to THIS earth. Christ will set up His Kingdom on This SAME earth, but now without the curse. We will rule with him. What makes you think that we will forget everything about this earth that we were just here seven years prior? Did Christ forget his disciples and others when he returned after his resurrection?

Our memories will not be erased. Do you think we will be mindless zombies in heaven--knowing absolutely nothing?

 

[awaken]

Earthly knowledge will pass away? Will it?
At the rapture we will go to heaven. After seven years we will return to THIS earth. Christ will set up His Kingdom on This SAME earth, but now without the curse. We will rule with him. What makes you think that we will forget everything about this earth that we were just here seven years prior? Did Christ forget his disciples and others when he returned after his resurrection?

Our memories will not be erased. Do you think we will be mindless zombies in heaven--knowing absolutely nothing?

No, I believe we will know as we are known. I believe our knowledge in part..will be complete knowledge!
I do not think we really know what we will remember...At least I do not see it in scriptures...but I have never really searched it out.

 

[DHK]

No, I believe we will know as we are known. I believe our knowledge in part..will be complete knowledge!
I do not think we really know what we will remember...At least I do not see it in scriptures...but I have never really searched it out.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Really you are just beating around the bush with no definitive answer.
"Knowledge shall pass away." We know it won't be all knowledge. Certainly we will remember some things. We will recognize people from our former lives, even as Christ did.

"We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is."

This "knowledge" needs to be accurately defined by you.
This "knowledge" will vanish away. It is a particular kind of knowledge.
I think you know what it is, but you don't want to come out and say it.
Think of the context. What is Paul talking about in 1Cor.13:8.
What will vanish?

 

[awaken]

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Really you are just beating around the bush with no definitive answer.
"Knowledge shall pass away." We know it won't be all knowledge. Certainly we will remember some things. We will recognize people from our former lives, even as Christ did.

"We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is."

This "knowledge" needs to be accurately defined by you.
This "knowledge" will vanish away. It is a particular kind of knowledge.
I think you know what it is, but you don't want to come out and say it.
Think of the context. What is Paul talking about in 1Cor.13:8.
What will vanish?

NO, I stated my answer several times! You just do not agree! Your interpretation is just that.."Your interpretation"

 

[DHK]

NO, I stated my answer several times! You just do not agree! Your interpretation is just that.."Your interpretation"

You haven't stated your answer not even from once.
The question is:
From 1Cor.13:8, what does "knowledge" mean, in the context that "knowledge shall vanish away." What knowledge is it speaking of? How shall that particular knowledge vanish away?

Even in perfect knowledge imperfect knowledge still remains. Impartial knowledge still remains. It only becomes more complete. What knowledge completely vanishes away. You haven't answered that question yet.

 

[Sularis]

*creak* watch out for the rust ;p

ah the cessation - ive been away a while - good to see the old arguments are at least getting a bit of a new spin

ok the gifts are not meant to cease but rather decrease or increase depending on your spin ;p I can go both ways - until the final days when that which is perfect is come which is Christ Jesus and the new heaven and new earth

Now as to the knowledge question - i think i can explain using evolution - weee is that gonna cause a stink ;p - think of knowledge starting off as paramecium - as the knowledge expanded it became more complex - so the old knowledge didnt die but it became something new - that is a fishie - this has happened over and over - when Christ comes the old knowledge doesnt pass away but is completed and that completion makes it a new thing and the old passes away.

ie the body of knowledge

meh im rusty hope thats clear enough

 

[percho]

All I know is knowledge must vanish right after it has increased.

Dan. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

And thank God all will be perfect.

 

[DHK]

All I know is knowledge must vanish right after it has increased.

Dan. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

And thank God all will be perfect.

Each one is a revelatory gift that existed only for a temporary time in history.
Prophecies were, and failed--that is they ceased to be. When the revelation of God was completed the prophecies stopped. They were a vehicle of revelation for God's people until the canon of the NT was complete at the end of the first century.
Tongues ceases around the same time. They were also used for the same purpose--prophesies spoken in another language and translated. They were also a revelatory gift. They ceased to be.
Knowledge here is a spiritual gift. That is the context. Specifically it is a revelatory gift, one used to bring revelation. The kind of knowledge being referred to here is "revelatory knowledge." It is a spiritual gift that vanished away when the NT was complete. It was no longer needed, as 1Cor.13:8 indicates. We have the Word of God. We don't need these temporary gifts. Everything we need to know about God, Christ, and his will for us is contained in this book we call the Bible.

 

[Sularis]

oh le sigh

tongues are prophecy? - really? that is not the purpose of tongues - and prophecy is not solely about the revelation of Scripture

someone needs to take a class ;p

tongues are a confirming gift and also evangelistic gift they have not ceased - i personall spoke in a language i did not understand to someone from that language to witness

i do not seek a repeat of that experience since tongues is not a gift we should be seeking and it is far too often claimed and abused

prophets did not just go and tell the future they went and told the will of God in personal messages - i think God has a will and im sure He communicates with us - so thus prophecy should still be up and running

the whole thing hinges on what is perfect - you claim it is the Bible - I claim it is Christ's return

no gifts have ceased to exist - they may not be active but they are available to go at a moments notice- 1Co 13 clearly states the fullness or completeness is when we are face to face - and as far as i know face to face would kill at least according to OT and Moses - unless we are in heaven and in possession of our new bodies

 

[DHK]

tongues are prophecy? - really? that is not the purpose of tongues - and prophecy is not solely about the revelation of Scripture

someone needs to take a class ;p

tongues are a confirming gift and also evangelistic gift they have not ceased - i personall spoke in a language i did not understand to someone from that language to witness

i do not seek a repeat of that experience since tongues is not a gift we should be seeking and it is far too often claimed and abused

prophets did not just go and tell the future they went and told the will of God in personal messages - i think God has a will and im sure He communicates with us - so thus prophecy should still be up and running

the whole thing hinges on what is perfect - you claim it is the Bible - I claim it is Christ's return

no gifts have ceased to exist - they may not be active but they are available to go at a moments notice- 1Co 13 clearly states the fullness or completeness is when we are face to face - and as far as i know face to face would kill at least according to OT and Moses - unless we are in heaven and in possession of our new bodies

Tongues had many purposes, one of which was revelatory as indicated by 1Cor.13:8-13, and the context that it is written in.
"When that which is 'perfect' is come then that which is in part will be done away."
The word "teleios" is in the neuter gender and cannot possibly refer to Christ who is masculine. It refers to the Word of God. Perfect means complete or completed. When the God's revelation was completed then that which was in part (prophecy, tongues, and "revelatory" knowledge) was done away.

The spiritual gifts were a sign that authenticated the apostles and their message (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4). As a whole these sign gifts were given to the apostles to show that they indeed were the apostles, and that their message was from God.

The spiritual gifts were a sign to the Jews (1Cor.14:21,22). They were a sign in that if they didn't take this sign seriously and repent they could be sure judgment would come. Judgement came in 70 A.D. The Temple was destroyed, and the nation was dispersed.

If you read 1Cor.14 you will note that the emphasis is on understanding. Tongues was never allowed to be spoken unless there was interpretation. No interpretation; no tongues. And only a limit of two or three, and that in order--one by one--could speak in a service. Women could not speak.
But the purpose? They were translating what would have been said in prophecy. All throughout the emphasis is on prophecy. Paul said it was better if they would prophecy with understanding then speak in tongues. It was a revelatory gift. It would, in and of itself, pass away. And it did at the end of the first century. No one has this gift during the present century.

No one has the gift of healing during this present century. That doesn't mean that God doesn't heal. He does, often in answer to prayer. Here is an example of the gift of healing.

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Peter could heal all that came to him, thousands, and with no exceptions--the lame, the blind, the deaf, the mute, those with missing limbs, lepers, etc. They were healed immediately. They were healed whether or not they had faith, whether or not they were saved. All were healed.
Who in the world has that gift today? No one.

Paul said: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all."
Why did he speak more in tongues, and what was the need? Paul went on three different missionary journeys and established about 100 different churches. As his custom was he went to the synagogue first. Tongues was a sign to the Jew. He would use tongues when it was practical to do so--perhaps in a nation like Spain if he didn't know the language. God would give him the language miraculously. It would be interpreted for the Jews sake. It was a sign for the Jews. It was a revelatory gift for the rest that they might understand the NT as it had not been written yet. It was a sign that he was an apostle appointed by God to carry this message to the places that God was sending him.
Those are the purposes of tongues.
By the end of the first century this gift, as well as the others had ceased.

 

[awaken]

Tongues had many purposes, one of which was revelatory as indicated by 1Cor.13:8-13, and the context that it is written in.
"When that which is 'perfect' is come then that which is in part will be done away."
The word "teleios" is in the neuter gender and cannot possibly refer to Christ who is masculine. It refers to the Word of God. Perfect means complete or completed. When the God's revelation was completed then that which was in part (prophecy, tongues, and "revelatory" knowledge) was done away.

Be careful not to add to God's Word...to satisfy your own theory!

The spiritual gifts were a sign that authenticated the apostles and their message (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4). As a whole these sign gifts were given to the apostles to show that they indeed were the apostles, and that their message was from God.

That was not the only reason God gave tongues...again you stick only to scriptures that satisfy your theory and ignore those that do not!

The spiritual gifts were a sign to the Jews (1Cor.14:21,22). They were a sign in that if they didn't take this sign seriously and repent they could be sure judgment would come. Judgement came in 70 A.D. The Temple was destroyed, and the nation was dispersed.

If you read 1Cor.14 you will note that the emphasis is on understanding. Tongues was never allowed to be spoken unless there was interpretation. No interpretation; no tongues. And only a limit of two or three, and that in order--one by one--could speak in a service. Women could not speak.
But the purpose? They were translating what would have been said in prophecy. All throughout the emphasis is on prophecy. Paul said it was better if they would prophecy with understanding then speak in tongues. It was a revelatory gift. It would, in and of itself, pass away. And it did at the end of the first century. No one has this gift during the present century.

Just because you say no one has the gift...does not make it so. Scriptures tell us when the gift will cease and it does not line up with your theory...unless of course you ignore other scriptures.

No one has the gift of healing during this present century. That doesn't mean that God doesn't heal. He does, often in answer to prayer. Here is an example of the gift of healing.

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Peter could heal all that came to him, thousands, and with no exceptions--the lame, the blind, the deaf, the mute, those with missing limbs, lepers, etc. They were healed immediately. They were healed whether or not they had faith, whether or not they were saved. All were healed.
Who in the world has that gift today? No one.

Lets not limit God because of our own understanding...His ways are way above ours! God heals in many ways..Mark says that we are to lay hands on the sick!

Paul said: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all."
Why did he speak more in tongues, and what was the need? Paul went on three different missionary journeys and established about 100 different churches. As his custom was he went to the synagogue first. Tongues was a sign to the Jew. He would use tongues when it was practical to do so--perhaps in a nation like Spain if he didn't know the language. God would give him the language miraculously. It would be interpreted for the Jews sake. It was a sign for the Jews. It was a revelatory gift for the rest that they might understand the NT as it had not been written yet. It was a sign that he was an apostle appointed by God to carry this message to the places that God was sending him.
Those are the purposes of tongues.
By the end of the first century this gift, as well as the others had ceased.

No where in scriptures does it show that tongues was used to evangalize! NOWHERE! But I can show in scriptures where tongues is talking to God!

 

[DHK]

Be careful not to add to God's Word...to satisfy your own theory!

It is not a theory. It is the teaching of the Word of God; something you continue to reject, though many others on different forums have patiently explained to you.

That was not the only reason God gave tongues...again you stick only to scriptures that satisfy your theory and ignore those that do not!

No, it is one of many "signs," all of which have been fulfilled. When a stop sign is temporarily place because of a road closure, the sign is removed when the road is "completed." The sign is no longer needed and has been taken out of the way; the way has been completed (the Word).

Just because you say no one has the gift...does not make it so. Scriptures tell us when the gift will cease and it does not line up with your theory...unless of course you ignore other scriptures.

I have harmonized all the Scripture for you; you simply reject it and throw in your own opinions which go against the Scriptures.

Lets not limit God because of our own understanding...His ways are way above ours! God heals in many ways..Mark says that we are to lay hands on the sick!

God limits himself.
He limits himself according to his own nature; that is, he cannot lie for example.
He limits himself according to his own word. He will not go contrary to what he has said in his word. But you want him to do so.

No where in scriptures does it show that tongues was used to evangalize! NOWHERE! But I can show in scriptures where tongues is talking to God!

So many people have disproved you on this point. But you will not listen. Nowhere in Scripture does it teach that there it does teach that tongues is to be used as a selfish prayer language. It isn't there. There was only one kind of tongues. Tongues are a language, previously unknown to the one speaking but known to the ones hearing. You don't have that gift.

 

[Sularis]

yer not getting it

5046 τελειος teleios tel’-i-os
from 5056; TDNT-8:67,1161; adj

AV-perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

i can see you use the meaning number 1 - but i use all of them

the Bible while being the Word of God and Holy and True is not perfect - there exists an item missing from it necessary to make it function - that is the Holy Spirit as stated in

17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Unless you want to start a new thread suggesting we can save ourselves
which we cant

The Bible is NOT God - God is God - we cant just read the Bible and magically say oh thats clear and obvious - because we need to pray to God and meditate on it - now the Bible is important beyond all measure - because it contains the Words of God but it seems that you are confusing the tool with the goal

tongues is a sign gift it enables and confirms other gifts but it is not those gifts - and if the gift of healing is not needed why does God still heal? if His will is fully revealed to us - why do we need missionaries? - the gifts are needed and still active for those who search - the gifts are partial reflections of Gods love and ability - what perfect form of healing what more perfect form of tongues has come - as far as i know the only perfect form of all the gifts is Jesus

and btw tongues IS NOT a private prayer language

 

[DHK]

5046 τελειος teleios tel’-i-os
from 5056; TDNT-8:67,1161; adj

AV-perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

i can see you use the meaning number 1 - but i use all of them

I use the major and primary meanings. Perfect and complete mean the same thing, given the context. Both words are usually interchangeable in the KJV. Therefore your 2nd definition contradicts some of the others. So: 1, 3, 4, 4b1. I agree with those. Remember that it is used in the neuter in the context of 1Cor.13 and cannot refer to "men".

the Bible while being the Word of God and Holy and True is not perfect - there exists an item missing from it necessary to make it function - that is the Holy Spirit as stated in

The Bible is called perfect in Psalm 19.
It is referred to as the "perfect law of liberty" in James 1.
Christ referred to it as unchangeable.
However, at the time of the apostle Paul it was not complete. The word means complete. In the near future it would become complete. And that is what Paul was referring to.
Your definition suggests somehow that Christ or God at one time was deficient or incomplete.

Unless you want to start a new thread suggesting we can save ourselves
which we cant

I have no idea what you are talking about.

The Bible is NOT God - God is God - we cant just read the Bible and magically say oh thats clear and obvious - because we need to pray to God and meditate on it - now the Bible is important beyond all measure - because it contains the Words of God but it seems that you are confusing the tool with the goal

The Bible is God's revelation to mankind, given to man that we might learn more about our Savior/Creator.

tongues is a sign gift it enables and confirms other gifts but it is not those gifts - and if the gift of healing is not needed why does God still heal?

It is God that heals. No man has the gift of healing today. They didn't before Pentecost, and the don't now, after the Apostolic Age. They were a sign for the apostles to authenticate them and their message. Who can heal like Peter did in Acts 5:16? There is no one. The Gift of healing has ceased. That doesn't mean that God does not heal. He does, in answer to prayer.

if His will is fully revealed to us - why do we need missionaries? -

In obedience to the Great Commission--the last command he gave us before ascending back into heaven.

the gifts are needed and still active for those who search - the gifts are partial reflections of Gods love and ability - what perfect form of healing what more perfect form of tongues has come - as far as i know the only perfect form of all the gifts is Jesus

That is an allegorization and failure to take the Bible literally. The gifts in and of themselves have ceased.

and btw tongues IS NOT a private prayer language

At least we can agree on that point.

 

[Sularis]

hrm

The Bible is not God - the Bible is under threat and God will maintain it that is He will maintain something apart from Him

God is Triune not 4parts

So answer me this - with the Bible alone can man be saved?

my answer is no - because without the call of the Spirit the Bible appears to be foolish to man

the revelation of Scripture can NEVER fully teach us about God - not because it is imperfect but because we are - when that which is perfect is come we will know Him - not as throught a mirror darkly but face to face that mirror is the Scripture reflecting Gods glory to us

the gift of healing is still God doing the healing - what was Pentecost? the sealing of the church with the Holy Spirit - the Holy Spirit remains the gifts remain. I dont claim to know the whole world - but i spake in tongues - that is a gift you claim has ceased - it has not because I PERSONALLY experienced it - if tongues has not ceased then nothing else has - the gift of healing is not always active Peter did not run around every day healing every day - otherwise sickness and death would not have been around - and the historians of the Roman Empire would not have thought Israel a disease ridden pesthole

the ages of the church have always been ushered in and/or ended by something dramatic - what was the thing that ended the Apostolic era and began the Church Age