Could this be Paul?

[Bob Hope]

Revelation 2:2

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

 

[Revmitchell]

Oh brother..............

 

[Bob Hope]

Oh brother..............

What? Pauls books seem at odds with the gospels. Even when Christ was speaking to the churches in Revelation, the tone was not one of easy salvation as Paul would like us to believe. Christ wants obedience. Remember how Christ was speaking in Revelation to the churches in Asia?

 

[Revmitchell]

What? Pauls books seem at odds with the gospels. Even when Christ was speaking to the churches in Revelation, the tone was not one of easy salvation as Paul would like us to believe. Christ wants obedience. Remember how Christ was speaking in Revelation to the churches in Asia?

No where does Paul deliver a message of easy salvation. Nor is anything Paul wrote at odds with the gospels. Paul constantly calls for the churches to obedience and to "work out their salvation".

the bigger problem is that you are calling a large portion of the Bible into question and the will get you a lot of opposition as it should. I am really surprised by your post. I have never seen anyone question this before. Do you know anyone else who does this?

 

[Bob Hope]

No where does Paul deliver a message of easy salvation. Nor is anything Paul wrote at odds with the gospels. Paul constantly calls for the churches to obedience and to "work out their salvation".

the bigger problem is that you are calling a large portion of the Bible into question and the will get you a lot of opposition as it should. I am really surprised by your post. I have never seen anyone question this before. Do you know anyone else who does this?

I was just a thought after reading this verse.

2 Corinthians 1:8
For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:

 

[Revmitchell]

I was just a thought after reading this verse.

2 Corinthians 1:8
For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:

Ok I do not get it. How does that verse lead one to the op question?

 

[Bob Hope]

Ok I do not get it. How does that verse lead one to the op question?

Well, whay was Paul thrown out of Asia? Then what did Christ tell that church in Revelation, good job for throwing out that guy who thought he was an Apostle? Where there a lot more people going around telling people they were Apostles?

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, whay was Paul thrown out of Asia? Then what did Christ tell that church in Revelation, good job for throwing out that guy who thought he was an Apostle? Where there a lot more people going around telling people they were Apostles?

God told Paul he was an Apostle.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What? Pauls books seem at odds with the gospels. Even when Christ was speaking to the churches in Revelation, the tone was not one of easy salvation as Paul would like us to believe. Christ wants obedience. Remember how Christ was speaking in Revelation to the churches in Asia?

I don't think you understand Paul then. I believe Paul is totally consistent with the teachings of the Apostles with regard to faith. The problem is because Paul when writing was focused on a particular aspect of the faith emphasised that point of the faith. Not that he intended to exclude other aspects. So for instance in Romans where he teaches the Primacy of Faith he doesn't exclude behaviors Christians are supposed to exhibit in their lives as a result of their faith which works in love. Paul is not contradictory with James but he is focused on the necessity of faith. Where James focuses on the necessity of works. But In both cases Faith must be first and primary for works to complete it. Works on its own never, ever makes God indebted to us. Simply put Paul focuses on the front end and James focuses on the back end. Remember Paul didn't write his letters in isolation to the rest of what was taught in the faith. So no I don't think this passage in Revelation is in referrence to Paul. Keep in mind the respect Peter had for Paul and what Peter himselfs says of Paul's writings.

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

 

[Bob Hope]

I don't think you understand Paul then. I believe Paul is totally consistent with the teachings of the Apostles with regard to faith. The problem is because Paul when writing was focused on a particular aspect of the faith emphasised that point of the faith. Not that he intended to exclude other aspects. So for instance in Romans where he teaches the Primacy of Faith he doesn't exclude behaviors Christians are supposed to exhibit in their lives as a result of their faith which works in love. Paul is not contradictory with James but he is focused on the necessity of faith. Where James focuses on the necessity of works. But In both cases Faith must be first and primary for works to complete it. Works on its own never, ever makes God indebted to us. Simply put Paul focuses on the front end and James focuses on the back end. Remember Paul didn't write his letters in isolation to the rest of what was taught in the faith. So no I don't think this passage in Revelation is in referrence to Paul. Keep in mind the respect Peter had for Paul and what Peter himselfs says of Paul's writings.

I agree with that and that is how I have always dealt with Pauls take on Faith. I had just stumbled onto these verses at the same time and the question hit me.

 

[The Biblicist]

Revelation 2:2

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Neither you or TS understand the difference between James and Paul.

1. Different subjects

a. Romans 4 "the ungodly" = lost man - (Rom. 4:5)
b. James 2 "one of you" = regenerate church member (Jms 1:18:2:1-9)

2. Different relationship

a. Faith in regard to the DOCTRINE of justification - Rom. 4
b. Faith in regard to the PROFESSION of justification - James 2:18

3. Different Purpose

a. Theological - Justification "without works" - Rom. 4:5-6
b. Pragmatic - Justification evidenced by works - James 2:14-18

4. Different Context

a. How believers can distinguish between a living and dead faith in regard
to one's profession of justification. - James 2
b. How God distinguishes between faith and works in the act of
justification - Rom. 4:1


However, when Paul speaks concerning the same subject, relationship, purpose and context as James they agree perfectly - Eph. 2:10; Romans 6

 

[SovereignMercy]

The Holy Spirit always teaches the exact same thing no matter who He speaks through. Good works are the result of God working through His elect. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Thankfully He doesn't leave anything up to us or we would be sure to blow it. If you have anything to do with salvation it's not the Gospel of God.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

David:

Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; in the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth.

James:

Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Paul:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Peter:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Bob Hope]

Neither you or TS understand the difference between James and Paul.

1. Different subjects

a. Romans 4 "the ungodly" = lost man - (Rom. 4:5)
b. James 2 "one of you" = regenerate church member (Jms 1:18:2:1-9)

2. Different relationship

a. Faith in regard to the DOCTRINE of justification - Rom. 4
b. Faith in regard to the PROFESSION of justification - James 2:18

3. Different Purpose

a. Theological - Justification "without works" - Rom. 4:5-6
b. Pragmatic - Justification evidenced by works - James 2:14-18

4. Different Context

a. How believers can distinguish between a living and dead faith in regard
to one's profession of justification. - James 2
b. How God distinguishes between faith and works in the act of
justification - Rom. 4:1


However, when Paul speaks concerning the same subject, relationship, purpose and context as James they agree perfectly - Eph. 2:10; Romans 6

Most people can not reconcile Pauls letters with the gospels or with James.

 

[percho]

I would put it this way. When God gives one the Holy Spirit, the holy Spirit will produce fruit which will be good works.

Matt. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[Bob Hope]

The Holy Spirit always teaches the exact same thing no matter who He speaks through. Good works are the result of God working through His elect. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Thankfully He doesn't leave anything up to us or we would be sure to blow it. If you have anything to do with salvation it's not the Gospel of God.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

David:

Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; in the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth.

James:

Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Paul:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Peter:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

or how about this:


Romans 4:1-3

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.



James 2:20-22

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

[Bob Hope]

I would put it this way. When God gives one the Holy Spirit, the holy Spirit will produce fruit which will be good works.

Matt. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

A good response, it always comes down to brass tacks in the end.

 

[SovereignMercy]

Most people can not reconcile Pauls letters with the gospels or with James.

That's because most people don't have the Holy Spirit.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Bob Hope]

That's because most people don't have the Holy Spirit.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

So you don't think believers can be in error?

 

[The Biblicist]

Most people can not reconcile Pauls letters with the gospels or with James.

Most people ignore these very contextual distinctions and that is why they cannot harmonize the two. When you ignore these contextual factors then the consequence will be confusion which is manifested by either pitting one against the other, rejecting one or perverting one to make it harmonize with the other.

 

[Bob Hope]

Most people ignore these very contextual distinctions and that is why they cannot harmonize the two. When you ignore these contextual factors then the consequence will be confusion which is manifested by either pitting one against the other, rejecting one or perverting one to make it harmonize with the other.

Maybe true, or God never intended it to be that complicated in the first place. I really like the way Jesus puts it in Revelation 2 & 3.