Clear up confusion about tongues!

[The Biblicist]

That is pure fiction and perversion of every single text you reference! 1 Cor. 14:2 is found in the CHURCH not outside of it. I Cor. 14:14 presents only an "IF" scenario which Paul rejects in verse 15. The prayer in this context has listeners (v. 17). Romans 8:26-27 refers to something that cannot be uttered and tongues are uttered right out of the mouth of the speaker. There is no mention of tongues or any other spiritual gift in Romans 8.

Here is the actual bottom line!

1. There is not one single solitary self-proclaimed prophet or apostle within Pentecostalism/charimania that has ever passed the Biblical test of a prophet or met the Biblical qualification for apostleship.

2. All of the fragmented but "Spirit" filled aspects of charismania share the common experience of speaking in so-called tongues but are the most highly divided, confused, heresy filled movement on planet earth.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Because tongues is the most misunderstood gift!
I showed in Acts 2,10, 19 etc. that they all spoke in tongues. Not all are called to speak in tongues in assembly and interprete, but all that are Baptized can "pray in the spirit."

That is utter nonsense, a Charismatic myth and certainly not scriptural.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Curious..what is your view backed up with scripture?

I am the only one in this conversation with you, Biblicist, and DHK who is using the scriptures consistently. The Pentecostal/Charismatic interpretation of the gifts is blatantly wrong and false, but so is the cessationist view of Biblicist and DHK.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That is not what Paul said. The KJV translated it as an imperative when the context demands it should be translated as indicative. He is rebuking them for seeking gifts that God did not give them.

1. God chooses the gift not the believer - 12:11
2. God designes the gift and use of members - 12:18
3. God does not give tongues to all beleivers - 12:29-30
4. You are coveting after better gifts (as they perceived them) but not according to God's revealed will or the way of love - 12:31-13:13.




God does not give tongues to all believers (1 Cor. 12:29-30) and so not all believers are able to speak in tongues.

Tongues are not a sign of being "filled" with the Spirit as John the Baptist and all other O.T. prophets and saints could be "filled" with the Spirit and yet they did not speak in tongues nor could they as they were a yet future gift not yet given (Isa. 28:11-12).

I agree with this post.

 

[The Biblicist]

As DHK correctly stated all such "sign" and revelatory gifts have ceased with the last living christians upon whom the apostles laid their hands and imparted such gifts as that was their ability and "signs of an apostle" (2 Cor. 12:12).

I Corinthians 13:8-13 predicts the cessation of tongues and revelatory gifts. Tongues ceases BEFORE revelatory gifts cease as Israel would reject this "sign" as predicted by Isaiah 28:12 and God would turn to the Gentiles.

8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

In verse 8 there is a grammatical distinction in voice between "fail" and "cease." The Greek word translated "cease" is a middle voice and means it will cease of itself. However, "fail" is passive in voice and means something shall cause it to fail. That something which will cause "prophesy" to "fail" is the subject of verses 9-12.

The implication is that tongues will cease of itself prior to whatever comes and stops prophecy. That is precisely what happened to the gift of tongues. It gradually died out even before the end of the first century.

Prophecy and knowledge are INCOMPLETE when Paul wrote - "WE know in part and WE prophesy in part" and "that which is perfect" (complete) had not come when Paul wrote. "that" is neuter and so it does not refer to the coming of Christ. So what comes to make the "in part" cease is that which is COMPLETE. Hence, by the very contrast the COMPLETE has to do with REVELATION as the "in part" is partial REVELATORY gifts. It must therefore be the COMPLETION of what partial revelatory gifts provide - God's Revealed Word.

In the remaining context, it refers to something that presentlly when Paul wrote was IMMATURE and INCOMPLETE and only possessed "in part" but the "part" would be set aside when MATURITY came. The Maturity had to do with REVELATION and refers to the completed Biblical canon or New Testament which Paul and other apostles were in the process of completing. Thus until it was complete revelatory gifts were essential for the congregations as the Old Testament provided nothing for chuch policy, doctrine and ordinances.

Paul illustrates the arrival of the MATURE revelation that does away with the "in part" immature revelatory gifts with two illustrations. The first illustration has to do with the cessation of tongues simply ceasing of itself while the second illustration with what provided a more mature clearer perception.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Tongues would cease of themselves naturally as a child would naturally stop talking like a child when they mature and begin talking like an adult. Tongues were infantile in that they were never intended to continue as their purpose was specific and limited (I Cor. 14:20-21). Their use in the church was restricted and limited (1 Cor. 14:26-27).

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


The second illustration dealt with what would stop prophesy and knowledge. Remember, now they were "in part." What would stop them is when FULLER revelation arrived that would make them no longer necessary. Their "in part" condition was compared to a brass mirror that allowed the looker to see themselves but with limitations. Such was the case of revelatory gifts as not all Christians possessed such gifts and thus most Christians were dependent upon those gifted men (Acts 13:1) for divine leadership.

Note the contrast of time terms "NOW" versus "THEN". The "NOW" was inclusive of the apostolic time as he includes himself "we" in this "NOW" period. It was the prophetic job of the apostles to finish the Bibical canon as predicted also by Isaiah (Isa. 8:16-18). Jesus told them that the coming of the Holy Spirit would "lead them into ALL TRUTH" (Jn. 16:13) and that the Holy Spirit would "REMIND THEM" of the words Jesus spoke to them and that future Christians would be converted "by their words" (Jn. 17:20). They realized they were producing scriptures (2 Pet. 3:15-17; etc.) and the apostle John realized he was concluding the prophecy of Isaiah 8:16 as he introduced his final scriptures by the final living apostle as "the testimony" of Christ and sealed it (Rev. 22:17-18) as predicted by Isaiah 8:16 and then predicted that the next revelation from God would be the coming of Christ from heaven (Rev. 22:19-20) just as Isaiah also predicted (Isa. 8:18).

However, that time had not come when Paul wrote the Corinthians and they were still "NOW" in the apostolic age where this incomplete revelation was still necessary. However, "then" it would not be necessary as the New Testament Scriptures would provide a "mirror" where one could see himself more plainly (James 1:23-25). With the arrival of the New Testament Scriptures the "in part" revelatory gifts and their accompany confirming signs and wonders (Heb. 2:3-4) would cease to exist.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Paul's stated purpose for chapter 13 was to shew them a "better way" right "now" to guide them in their use of spiritual gifts - the way of love (1 Cor. 12:31).

In lack of completed revelation from God, mature spirituality, and proper use of spirtiual gifts is not determined by the power and performance of spiritual gifts, but MATURE use of God's gifts is determined by abiding principles which are apparent to all his readers - faith, hope and charity. Hence, in lieu of a completed revelation from God spelling out the proper and improper use of spiritual gifts they had abiding principles that could be used "NOW" to discern right and wrong use of such gifts. The greatest of these principles is love and it is love that Paul goes on to use as the principle to guide them in the proper use of such temporary gifts in Chapter 14. The principle of love demands the use of all gifts are for edification of others and self. The principle of love demands order and descency and obedience to the scriptures they do have.

There are several Biblical reasons that clearly support the cessation of "sign" gifts.

1. Sign gifts were administered through the laying on of apostolic hands
a. No sign gifts by anyone but apostles from acts 2-6
b. No sign gifts by anyone but by those upon whom apostolic hands were laid - Acts 6:5-28

2. Taught explicitly in Acts 8:15-19

3. No sign gifts listed in Romans 12 and Paul wanted to convey them (Rom. 1:11).

4. These are the "signs" of the apostles not every believer - 2 Cor. 12:12

5. 1 Corinthians 13 teaches tongues will cease of itself PRIOR TO cessation of revelatory gifts

6. Revelatory gifts are "in part" and revelation which is not in part brings "in part" revelatory gifts to close - completion of Biblical canon.

7. Revelatory gifts today come from false prophets/apostles that fail the Biblical tests of prophets

8. Revelatory gifts today originate out of chaotic, heretical, divided movement.

9. Tongues today are nothing more than esctatic utterances found in all occult religions.

 

[awaken]

So you are saying that tongues is inseparable from truth faith in Christ and thus non-speakers are lost. The fact that Paul denies that God gives tongues to all believers is simply trashed by your interpretation (1 Cor. 12:29-30).

I see that you really do not read my post..only what you want to debate about. In my previous post I said it is available to all believers...but not all believers speak in tongues because the way they are taught..or just unbelief about tongues/gifts. I have always even in this thread said you do not have to speak in tongues to be saved.

Another verse jerked out of context. In context, Paul is referring to speaking in tongues without an interpreter not just speaking in tongues. Neither does this verse say one word about praying in tongues but rather speaking in tongues.

speaking in tongues/praying in the spirit is the same thing! He plainly says that they are speaking to God! In several verses!

To do anything "in the Holy Spirit" does not mean the Holy Spirit does it for us but rather what we do is done by or under the leadership of the Spirit. Just like to "walk in the Spirit" does not mean the Holy Spirit walks for us but rather we live by his power and leadership. To pray "in the Spirit" simply means to pray under the leadership of the Spirit.

You are confusing texts that speak of what is done "in my spirit" versus what is done "in the Spirit." Our spirit may bear witness with the Holy Spirit but that does not mean they are one and the same but rather our spirit is following or submissive to the leadership of the Spirit.

I agree with this! We submit our tongue to the Holy Spirit, it is the Spirit that gives utterance to our spirit and we speak! It can be in a language we do not know or one we understand. Paul makes it clear... the difference in the two! We still have to obey with our body and mind to walk out anything "in the spirit"...tongues is no different.

Praying in "my spirit" is not the Holy Spirit- praying. When the Holy Spirit intercedes for us it is with groanings "THAT CANNOT BE UTTERED" and tongues can be uttered and is our utterings (Rom. 8:26-27).

This passage does not mention anything about tongues, but instead it describes what is sometimes referred to as "groaning in the Spirit." During their prayer time, many Christians have occasionally experienced a groaning which comes from deep within them, and which seems to fit the above passage

This is absolutely pure 100% hogwash! First, these scriptures have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit praying for us. To pray "in the Holy Spirit" simply means to pray under the leadership of the Spirit just like to "walk in the Spirit" does not mean the Holy Spirit walks for us but rather it means to live under the leadership of the Spirit.

Tongues gives a voice to our spirits. We still have to submit to the Holy Spirit and speak the utterance that he gives us! We also have to walk where he says walk! It is not hogwash..it is submitting our tongue to the Holy Spirit trusting (faith) that He will pray the perfect will of God through us! As Paul said..we can also pray with our understanding. The Holy Spirit can guide both ways. Scriptures are clear on that! Pray with the spirit or understanding (mind).

You ignore the context from which it is taken and then completely pervert it, and jerk it out context. The context is repudiating any praying in tongues that does not come with understanding for both the speaker and the hearer. This is not a context of PRVIATE prayer as 1 Cor. 14:17 explicitly mentions those listening to us when we pray.

If you would quit dwelling on the negative things that Paul is teaching and see also the positive things he says about tongues...you would not miss the truth! HE SAID YOU GIVE THANKS WELL... how can he say it is well if it is not? No, it does not edify others...but it says nothing about how wrong it is to pray(say thanks) in tongues..JUST NOT IN THE ASSEMBLY. If not in the assembly (only to be done with interpretation, not forbidding, just orderly), where? In private!

He is saying this as a rebuke not as a compliment. He also repeatedly qualifies edification in connection with tongues to be inseparable from understanding what is said. The hearer is only edified when he understands what is said. Likewise, the speaker is only edified when he understands what is said (1 Cor. 14:14-17). So verse 2 must refer to one who speaks with understanding but no one else is given understanding so the speech is a "mystery" to all others but God.

Again, you focus on the rebuking and not on the encouragement. He is not forbidding, only in the assembly without an interpretation. If you believe your way..then you ignore verse 39 where he says forbid not to speak in tongues.

He says no such thing! Edification for both hearer and speaker requires understanding. The speaker who does not understand is not edified but the whole exercise is "unfruitful." Finally, faith cannot be built up when there is no understanding of what is said as faith requires "substance" that gives hope and the Bible does not teach blind faith or blind hope and that is precisely what you are attempting to teach when you say a person who does not understand what they are saying is being edified when Paul says they are being "unfruitful."

When you "pray with the spirit" and also pray for the interpretation...You do understand what you are praying for!
Until you see that "praying with the spirit" and tongues are the same as Paul says in vs. 14. It will not make sense to you. Jude tell us to build ourselves up praying in the Holy Ghost. Paul tells us that speaking in tongue only edifies us in vs. 2. You are only taking out of scriptures what fits your theory. I am seeing both..the rebuking (wrong way) and the right way.

Look at the context! he is contrasting the saved with the lost who is "sensual" or carnal. We are to build ourselves up in "the faith" (apostolic doctrine) and through prayer under the leadership and power of the Holy Spirit and keeping ourselves in the love of God. This has nothing to do with tongues or any other sign gifts. Peter provides Elijah as the model of prayer for us and Elijah never prayed in tongues. Jesus never prayed in tongues but lived, walked, preached, prayed "in the Spirit" as the gift of tongues was not given until Pentecost.

AGAIN, tongues and interpretation of tongues is the only manifestation unique to this dispensation (church age).

If we look at Jude 20 in light of:

(Rom 8:26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(Rom 8:27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The Spirit know what we should pray, the Spirit knows the will of God, the Spirit prays within the will of God and that prayer will be answered;

(1Jo 5:14) And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

(1Jo 5:15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Why in the world would it be so important for me (other than pride or arrogance) to pray something else other that what the Spirit of God in all His wisdom would pray for me?
Let's just let scripture define a prayer "in the spirit." Paul tells us exactly what this is. the problem is, some don't like Paul's answer.

First what is a prayer "in the spirit?" It is allowing the spirit man to pray using the mouth but not the mind. Paul puts it this way:

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

 

[The Biblicist]

I see that you really do not read my post..only what you want to debate about. In my previous post I said it is available to all believers...but not all believers speak in tongues because the way they are taught..or just unbelief about tongues/gifts. I have always even in this thread said you do not have to speak in tongues to be saved.

No, that is not what you said. Here is what you said:

Those that believe will speak with new tongues - Awaken Post #137

 

[The Biblicist]

speaking in tongues/praying in the spirit is the same thing! He plainly says that they are speaking to God! In several verses!

Absolutely and completely false! Again, you fail to distinguish between what he actually says in 1 Cor. 14:14 "MY spirit" and "with MY spirit" not the Holy Spirit. Moreover, do not come back saying "MY spirit" and "with MY spirit' is the same as praying "in the Spirit" because it is not. Have you ever read Romans 7:18 where the spirit of the saved person has willingness to do the things of God but has not the power. Moreover, is it not true that one may speak in tongues CONTRARY TO THE REVEALED WILL OF GOD? This whole passage is a CORRECTION and God's Spirit does not lead or empower His people to SIN! Hence, what you may do with YOUR "spirit' does not necessarily reflect what the Holy Spirit is or isn't doing unless you charge the Holy Spirit with empowering you to sin!

To pray "in the Spirit" NEVER means more than to pray, preach, sing, exhort, teach UNDER or BY the leadership of the Spirit, just as to "WALK in the Spirit" means nothing more than to "LIVE" under the leadership of the Spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

IHe plainly says that they are speaking to God! In several verses!

Again you jerk a statement out of context and then place it in your own manufactured context and reinterpret it. 1 Cor. 14:2 is obviously and clearly inseparable from verses 3-12 and in the context where a member IN THE ASSEMBLY speak "into the air" like a "BARBARIAN" due to the fact that he is speaking in tongues WITHOUT GIVING AN INTERPRETATION so that none present but himself and God can understand what he is saying. Hence, his understanding may edify him but it does not edify anyone else.

Furthermore, 1 Cor. 14:15-17 is also in the presence of listeners as verse 17 expressly states and when one speaks in tongues and the speaker does so without understanding then he too speaks into the air like a barbarian and no one is edifiied as it is a "unfruitful" exercise of futility.

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree with this! We submit our tongue to the Holy Spirit, it is the Spirit that gives utterance to our spirit and we speak! It can be in a language we do not know or one we understand. Paul makes it clear... the difference in the two! We still have to obey with our body and mind to walk out anything "in the spirit"...tongues is no different.

You can speak in tongues "with" and "in" YOUR spirit and yet not speak in tongues "in the Spirit" and that is precisely the case at Corinth UNLESS you are going to charge the Holy Spirit of participating in sin -disobedience - as Paul is not compliementing their use of tongues but correcting them.

If speaking in tongues was always "in the Spirit" then there could never be any need to correct them as that would entail rebuking the Holy Spirit as it is the Holy Spirit then that empowered them to disobey and abuse spiritual gifts.

 

[awaken]

This interpretation is based upon jerking 1 Cor. 14:2 out of its context. The context is dealing with speaking in tongues without providing an interpetation to the listeners. In that context only God understands as he "speaks into the air."

YOu are ignoring the positive side of the rebuking! You are the one that is jerking it out of context! That scripture does not say "into the air"..it says "in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." Speaking in the air is referred to how the listeners respond to an UNINTERPRETED tongues! The rebuking is "praying with the spirit" in the assembly without an interpretation! He does not deny that they can not "pray in the spirit"...JUST NOT IN CHURCH WITHOUT THE INTERPREATION.

To quote those texts for that point is shere deception and abuse of scripture. Romans 8:26-27 does not say one word about speaking in tongues and explicitly states what is said by the Holy Spirit cannot be uttered by men and tongues are utterances coming forth from the mouth of men. Both 1 Cor. 14:2 and 14:14 are in the context of listeners who are not given understanding of what is being said.

I answered this in the last post.

Tongues are not given to believers but are a sign to Jews and that cannot possibly refer to a IN CHURCH context because lost Jews don't attend church! So your intepretation is rediculous just as is your denial that is not for unbelievers (1 Cor. 14:20-22).

What? Only believers can manifest the Holy Spirit. Mark said only believers will speak in tongues. So you are way off on that one! Believers are the only ones that can speak in tongues!
As a believer.. I do not need a sign of tongues in order to believe. I already believe! Tongues is one of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. True believers do not need a sign. But as those scriptures point out...prophesying is for the believer and convicts the unbeliever.

That occurs ONLY when the listeners (v. 17) are not given understanding and there are no listeners in PRIVATE prayer! So much for another false interpetation and abuse of scripture.

THat is right, only in the assembly with listeners is there to be interpretation! He tells us if there is not an interpretation to pray between ourselves and God vs.28.

In the book of Acts JEWS were ALWAYS present when tongues were spoken (Acts 2, 10, 19). Paul says tongues are not for "unlearned" unbelievers or for believers. That leaves only JEWS and unbelieving Jews are OUTSIDE the church not inside it.

I will agree that one purpose of tongues is a sign to the unbelievers..I have never denied that! But I do not deny other scriptures and hold only to the one. You have to ingore too many scriptures to hold on to what you are saying...you are only telling half the truth and leaving out what Paul said about tongues..one being Forbid not to speak in tongues!

No such scripture exists to support this wild theory!

I explained this in a previous post!

That is pure fiction and perversion of every single text you reference! 1 Cor. 14:2 is found in the CHURCH not outside of it. I Cor. 14:14 presents only an "IF" scenario which Paul rejects in verse 15. The prayer in this context has listeners (v. 17). Romans 8:26-27 refers to something that cannot be uttered and tongues are uttered right out of the mouth of the speaker. There is no mention of tongues or any other spiritual gift in Romans 8.

see previous post!

 

[The Biblicist]

This passage does not mention anything about tongues, but instead it describes what is sometimes referred to as "groaning in the Spirit." During their prayer time, many Christians have occasionally experienced a groaning which comes from deep within them, and which seems to fit the above passage

This passage has NOTHING to do with speaking in tongues at all. The groanings of the Spirit CANNOT be uttered at all by men but Tongues can be UTTERED by men. This refers to the intercessory work of the Holy Spirit in behalf of all His people before the throne of God.

 

[awaken]

Here is the actual bottom line!

1. There is not one single solitary self-proclaimed prophet or apostle within Pentecostalism/charimania that has ever passed the Biblical test of a prophet or met the Biblical qualification for apostleship.

2. All of the fragmented but "Spirit" filled aspects of charismania share the common experience of speaking in so-called tongues but are the most highly divided, confused, heresy filled movement on planet earth.

Since I am not in an Pentecostal church I would not know what they claim or believe.

One, Jesus prophesied it - Mark 16:17, "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues
Two, the Father intended it - James 1:17, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."
Three, the Holy Spirit enabled it -- Acts 2:4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." 1 Cor 12:10-11, "to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."
Four, the New Testament Church received it -- Acts 2:4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."


Whatever our feelings may be toward tongues, we must obey what scripture commands and it very clearly declares in 1 Cor 14:39, "Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues."

 

[The Biblicist]

Tongues gives a voice to our spirits. We still have to submit to the Holy Spirit and speak the utterance that he gives us! We also have to walk where he says walk! It is not hogwash..it is submitting our tongue to the Holy Spirit trusting (faith) that He will pray the perfect will of God through us! As Paul said..we can also pray with our understanding. The Holy Spirit can guide both ways. Scriptures are clear on that! Pray with the spirit or understanding (mind).

It is pure hogwash as our own mouth in our own native langauge can give voice to not only our spirit but also to the Holy Spirit by submitting ourselves to His leadership in common prayer. Don't you believe that Jesus prayed "in the Spirit" the prayer recorded in John 17? He did not pray in tongues. He prayed in a langauge that John heard and recorded in John 17 for us to read.

When the Disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, why didn't Jesus just tell them wait until you get the gift of tongues or else you cannot pray "in the Spirit"? Your position is rediculous and absurdly unbiblical. You don't have a clue what it means to do anything "in the Spirit' or what "filled" with the Spirit means. People were "Filled" with the Spirit and "walked" in the Spirit and preached "in the Spirit' long before tongues was ever given among men.

Don't reply that the Spirit only came "upon" them prior to Pentecost because that is simply more hogwash. The Spirit not only came "upon" but FILLED them as well and they are not the same either! The former refers to EMPOWMENT just as it does in Acts 8:14-15 whereas the latter refers to LEADERSHIP as Jesus was "filled" with the Spirit after his baptism and the Spirt "LED" him into the wilderness.

 

[awaken]

That is utter nonsense, a Charismatic myth and certainly not scriptural.

I do not believe that tongues is the only evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God hasn't called me to tell people whether or not the Lord Jesus Christ has baptized them with the Holy Spirit! What a relief! But I do urge believers in Christ to welcome the Holy Spirit's fullness to follow Jesus in His life and power! And I do hope and pray they will be receptive to and become functional in the spiritual language available to them. A 'tongues' experience does not validate anything of our place in Christ or our walk with Him. For the beauty of spiritual language can only clearly be seen and received for all its precious worth when our eyes are unfogged by vision-blurring debate or demands. I believe the simple evidence in God's Word is that He never intended spiritual language as a proof, but that He has offered it as a provisional resource for readiness in prayer and praise.

 

[awaken]

I am the only one in this conversation with you, Biblicist, and DHK who is using the scriptures consistently. The Pentecostal/Charismatic interpretation of the gifts is blatantly wrong and false, but so is the cessationist view of Biblicist and DHK.

I have not seen where you post what you actually believe??

 

[The Biblicist]

If you would quit dwelling on the negative things that Paul is teaching and see also the positive things he says about tongues...you would not miss the truth! HE SAID YOU GIVE THANKS WELL... how can he say it is well if it is not?

I am not looking on the "negative" I am looking at the CONTEXT and the CONTEXT condemns your proof texting error.

Certainly he gave thanks well as that proves he UNDERSTOOD what he said whereas the LISTENERS did not understand because he did not give them the interpretation. How could he know he was even praying and not preaching in tongues unless he also had understanding of what he was saying? He knew he gave thanks well because he understood what he said. His listeners did not understand.

Again this proves he is not speaking of the so-called mythical "PRIVATE" prayer tongue but one where LISTENERS are present.

 

[annsni]

This passage has NOTHING to do with speaking in tongues at all. The groanings of the Spirit CANNOT be uttered at all by men but Tongues can be UTTERED by men. This refers to the intercessory work of the Holy Spirit in behalf of all His people before the throne of God.

Exactly. We looked at this passage again in church on Sunday so it's fresh in my mind. Romans 8:26 says that it is the Spirit who groans, not us. "but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, you focus on the rebuking and not on the encouragement. He is not forbidding, only in the assembly without an interpretation. If you believe your way..then you ignore verse 39 where he says forbid not to speak in tongues.

Your personal opinion means nothing WHEN the actual context denies what you are saying! The context is IN THE ASSEMBLY, just read verses 3-11 and Paul's own conclusion to verses 3-11 in verses 12-13 and he is speaking to the Corithian church about prophesy and tongues in the assembly. Verse 39 is referring to the assembly! You are simply wrong! Your intepretation is wrong! He is speaking to God IN THE ASSEMBLY when he does not share his understanding what he is saying.

There is not one verse in this chapter about PRIVATE tongue speaking as verse 2 is in the assembly context and verse 15 is in the presence of listeners (v. 17).

 

[The Biblicist]

Since I am not in an Pentecostal church I would not know what they claim or believe.

You are part of charismania as a movment regardless of what church you might or might not attend and therefore you have the same problem because you believe the prophetic and apostolic gifts have no more ceased then the sign gifts.

Name one single modern day prophet who has passed the Biblical tests of a prophet!

Name one single modern day apostle who has met the Biblical qualifications of an apostle?

Your "sign" gifts are no more valid than your prophet and apostolic gifts today as one is inseparable to the other.

You belief system is part of the confused, divided contradictory movement that has spread its tinacles into many different denominations.