Clear up confusion about tongues!

[The Biblicist]

When you "pray with the spirit" and also pray for the interpretation...You do understand what you are praying for!

Thank you for this admission of error! That is precisely true and without interpretation you are no more edified than the listeners as you have no idea you even were praying but could have been teaching or preaching in tongues and have no idea you said a "blessing" or made a rebuke" without understanding what you said. Verses 15-17 is in a context of LISTENERS as verse 17 explicitly states and there is no reference to PRIVATE prayer tongues here at all. Paul puts forth a consideration by introducing it with "IF" in verse 15 and then a complete repudiation of that consideration by explicitly stating he "WILL" do the very reverse in regard to his own practice. Nothing could be plainer and clearer IF the context is recognized for what it plainly says.

Until you see that "praying with the spirit" and tongues are the same as Paul says in vs. 14. It will not make sense to you. Jude tell us to build ourselves up praying in the Holy Ghost. Paul tells us that speaking in tongue only edifies us in vs. 2. You are only taking out of scriptures what fits your theory.

You simply jerk verse 2 out of its context to fit your theory! This is a CHURCH context as one only has to see the whole context of 1 Cor. 11-14 is set in the context of what occurs in the assembly. 1 Cor. 14 is set in the context of the assembly. There is no contextual support for any kind of PRIVATE TONGUE PRAYING in this entire chapter. Not one verse IF that verse is intepreted in its context.

Jude says nothing about praying in tongues. Your rediculous intepretation would require the phrase "in the Spirit" when connected witih prayer to mean that tongues are always in view when nothing could be further from the truth. Your intepretation would mean that regular praying as Jesus taught his disciples could not be praying "in the Spirit" or worse yet the praying recorded in John 17 was not praying "in the Spirit."

You have not even reached a point of understanding scriptures that "in the Spirit' is ALWAYS in contrast to "in the flesh" and refers to one of two ways to live, practice, perform, speak, teach, preach, everything you say and do.

 

[The Biblicist]

First what is a prayer "in the spirit?" It is allowing the spirit man to pray using the mouth but not the mind.

That is absurdly rediculous and contrary to what Paul plainly states he will not do. He will not pray without understanding (1 Cor. 14:16). Neither Christ or Paul supported MINDLESS Chrisitanity.

This is accusing Christ of misleading his disciples when they asked to teach them to pray. This is accusing Christ, who was "filled" with the Spirit of inferior praying in John 17.

Paul does not forbid speaking (prayer, exhortation, preaching, singing) in tongues in the apostolic assemblies but he clearly discourages and codemns it as an unfruitful exercise of futility when it occurs without understanding by either the speaker or listeners.

 

[awaken]

There are several Biblical reasons that clearly support the cessation of "sign" gifts.

1. Sign gifts were administered through the laying on of apostolic hands
a. No sign gifts by anyone but apostles from acts 2-6
b. No sign gifts by anyone but by those upon whom apostolic hands were laid - Acts 6:5-28

YOu never answered Acts 9..Was Ananias an apostle?

2. Taught explicitly in Acts 8:15-19

So now you are saying we can not receive the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands? Because that is what they received! Not to mention they believed and were baptized before vs. 15-19..but that is another thread!

3. No sign gifts listed in Romans 12 and Paul wanted to convey them (Rom. 1:11).

You have to again let scripture interprete scripture...
Do a study on operations, administration and gifts..and we will discuss this! I do notice that prophesy is listed among this list...funny, I thought it had ceased along with tongues?

4. These are the "signs" of the apostles not every believer - 2 Cor. 12:12

Then why did others than the apostles speak in tongues?

5. 1 Corinthians 13 teaches tongues will cease of itself PRIOR TO cessation of revelatory gifts

They will not cease UNTIL we know as we are known and we see face to face. Also 1 Cor. 1:7,8 tells them to come behind in NO gift UNTIL the coming of our Lord. (YOu seem to ignore this scripture as well).

6. Revelatory gifts are "in part" and revelation which is not in part brings "in part" revelatory gifts to close - completion of Biblical canon.

YOu added the Bible, nowhere in 1 Cor. does it mention the completion of the written Word!

7. Revelatory gifts today come from false prophets/apostles that fail the Biblical tests of prophets

You can not prove your theory on the false! There are also false christ??

8. Revelatory gifts today originate out of chaotic, heretical, divided movement.

No, they were poured out on the Day of Pentecost. After Christ ascended to the Father! They were given to the church to edify it! Why would He take away something that is good for us?

9. Tongues today are nothing more than esctatic utterances found in all occult religions.

You can not prove that with scriptures. I am not saying there is not false out there...but tongues is for today along with the other manifestation. You have not proven otherwise! You have just proclaimed your unbelief.

Again....We must never forget that the gift of tongues was God's idea, not man's. He gave this gift to the church no less than that the gifts of teaching, mercy, exhortation, and evangelism. Let us resolve from the outset not to spurn or ridicule something precious in God's sight, graciously bestowed by a loving Heavenly Father who gives only good gifts to His children.

It is also important that we keep our sense of perspective. Tongues is neither God's greatest gift to His most highly favored children nor is it the devil's most sinister tool of deceit. Tongues is just like any other gift of the Spirit. It is not a sign of God's special love. It is not a sign of heightened maturity in Christ. It is not a sign of superior zeal or commitment. It is not a sign that one has 'more' of the Holy Spirit than others. It is merely one among many of what the apostle Paul calls "'manifestations of the Spirit' (1 Cor. 12:7) given to believers for the common good of the church."

 

[awaken]

No, that is not what you said. Here is what you said:

Those that believe will speak with new tongues - Awaken Post #137

I quoted the Bible...These sign shall follow them that believe. Believe what? The apostles preaching of the gospel!!

 

[awaken]

Absolutely and completely false! Again, you fail to distinguish between what he actually says in 1 Cor. 14:14 "MY spirit" and "with MY spirit" not the Holy Spirit. Moreover, do not come back saying "MY spirit" and "with MY spirit' is the same as praying "in the Spirit" because it is not. Have you ever read Romans 7:18 where the spirit of the saved person has willingness to do the things of God but has not the power. Moreover, is it not true that one may speak in tongues CONTRARY TO THE REVEALED WILL OF GOD? This whole passage is a CORRECTION and God's Spirit does not lead or empower His people to SIN! Hence, what you may do with YOUR "spirit' does not necessarily reflect what the Holy Spirit is or isn't doing unless you charge the Holy Spirit with empowering you to sin!

To pray "in the Spirit" NEVER means more than to pray, preach, sing, exhort, teach UNDER or BY the leadership of the Spirit, just as to "WALK in the Spirit" means nothing more than to "LIVE" under the leadership of the Spirit.

I have explained my view on this and it does not contadict scripture! You still have to yield to the Holy Spirit...whether it is your tongue, mind, hands, feet, heart.

 

[awaken]

You can speak in tongues "with" and "in" YOUR spirit and yet not speak in tongues "in the Spirit" and that is precisely the case at Corinth UNLESS you are going to charge the Holy Spirit of participating in sin -disobedience - as Paul is not compliementing their use of tongues but correcting them.

If speaking in tongues was always "in the Spirit" then there could never be any need to correct them as that would entail rebuking the Holy Spirit as it is the Holy Spirit then that empowered them to disobey and abuse spiritual gifts.

THe correction was not what they were saying in tongues...but that they did not interprete it!

 

[awaken]

This passage has NOTHING to do with speaking in tongues at all. The groanings of the Spirit CANNOT be uttered at all by men but Tongues can be UTTERED by men. This refers to the intercessory work of the Holy Spirit in behalf of all His people before the throne of God.

Lets say for a minute that you are correct...
If that is so, then why pray at all? Why not just by faith say that the Holy Spirit will pray for me the perfect will of God without my voice..whether in English or any other language?

 

[awaken]

It is pure hogwash as our own mouth in our own native langauge can give voice to not only our spirit but also to the Holy Spirit by submitting ourselves to His leadership in common prayer. Don't you believe that Jesus prayed "in the Spirit" the prayer recorded in John 17? He did not pray in tongues. He prayed in a langauge that John heard and recorded in John 17 for us to read.

Yes, we can pray with our understanding..Paul mentions that! Tongues and interpretation is not demonstrated in the OT. These are distinctive of the Holy Spirit Dispensation, or age, which began with the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost. One of many gifts given to the church that most here want to say "thanks, but no thanks" to God.

When the Disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, why didn't Jesus just tell them wait until you get the gift of tongues or else you cannot pray "in the Spirit"? Your position is rediculous and absurdly unbiblical. You don't have a clue what it means to do anything "in the Spirit' or what "filled" with the Spirit means. People were "Filled" with the Spirit and "walked" in the Spirit and preached "in the Spirit' long before tongues was ever given among men.[/quote} In fact he did tell them there is more that he wanted to tell them, but they could receive it until the Holy Spirit comes on the Day of Pentecost. You can not manifest something you do not have!

Don't reply that the Spirit only came "upon" them prior to Pentecost because that is simply more hogwash. The Spirit not only came "upon" but FILLED them as well and they are not the same either! The former refers to EMPOWMENT just as it does in Acts 8:14-15 whereas the latter refers to LEADERSHIP as Jesus was "filled" with the Spirit after his baptism and the Spirt "LED" him into the wilderness.

Good observation...Jesus is the Son of God..yet he needed to be filled before his temptation. THis did not happen until after he was Baptized with water and the Dove (representing the Holy Spirit). He did not perform one miracle before this...but that is another thread!

 

[awaken]

I am not looking on the "negative" I am looking at the CONTEXT and the CONTEXT condemns your proof texting error.

Certainly he gave thanks well as that proves he UNDERSTOOD what he said whereas the LISTENERS did not understand because he did not give them the interpretation. How could he know he was even praying and not preaching in tongues unless he also had understanding of what he was saying? He knew he gave thanks well because he understood what he said. His listeners did not understand.

Again this proves he is not speaking of the so-called mythical "PRIVATE" prayer tongue but one where LISTENERS are present.

He was giving thanks....that is prayer! He gave thanks in a language that the listeners did not understand (that was the correction). He gave thanks in tongues!

 

[The Biblicist]

YOu never answered Acts 9..Was Ananias an apostle?

Paul did not receive any spiritual gifts through the laying on of Ananias hands. Ananias would have received his spiritual gifts from the laying on of hands by the apostles in Jerusalem, as he was one of those preachers that fled the church in Acts 8.

So now you are saying we can not receive the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands? Because that is what they received! Not to mention they believed and were baptized before vs. 15-19..but that is another thread!

The definite article is missing before the words "Holy Spirit" in the Greek text and is the anathrous construction which refers to what characterizes the Holy Spirit or gifts of the Holy Spirit. What was imparted was VISIBLE to the human eye as Simon "SAW" it and wanted the power to impart such gifts.

Second, it is impossible to be a beleiver in Christ apart from the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:9; Eph. 1:13-14). They were believers in Christ and baptized prior to receiving the Spirt in this sense.

 

[awaken]

Exactly. We looked at this passage again in church on Sunday so it's fresh in my mind. Romans 8:26 says that it is the Spirit who groans, not us. "but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

THe groaning comes from our spirit, I have experienced this myself!
I will ask you the same question...
If the Holy Spirit intercedes without us praying, why pray at all? Whether in English or tongues?

 

[awaken]

Your personal opinion means nothing WHEN the actual context denies what you are saying! The context is IN THE ASSEMBLY, just read verses 3-11 and Paul's own conclusion to verses 3-11 in verses 12-13 and he is speaking to the Corithian church about prophesy and tongues in the assembly. Verse 39 is referring to the assembly! You are simply wrong! Your intepretation is wrong! He is speaking to God IN THE ASSEMBLY when he does not share his understanding what he is saying.

There is not one verse in this chapter about PRIVATE tongue speaking as verse 2 is in the assembly context and verse 15 is in the presence of listeners (v. 17).

Again, speaking to God is prayer!!!!!!

 

[The Biblicist]

You have to again let scripture interprete scripture...
Do a study on operations, administration and gifts..and we will discuss this! I do notice that prophesy is listed among this list...funny, I thought it had ceased along with tongues?

Already have numerous times. Prophecy and Prophet are not one and the same. Do a study and you will see "all" can prophesy (1 Cor. 14:24-25) but not all are prophets (1 Cor. 14:27-29). The gifts in Romans 12 are SERVING gifts not "sign" gifts. Besides, if they had the gifts that were the "signs" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) why should Paul want to impart such gifts to them (Rom. 1:11).

They will not cease UNTIL we know as we are known and we see face to face.

You do not know what you are talking about. Go look at my exposition on 1 Cor. 13:8-13 and then come back and talk to me.

 

[The Biblicist]

THe groaning comes from our spirit, I have experienced this myself!
I will ask you the same question...
If the Holy Spirit intercedes without us praying, why pray at all? Whether in English or tongues?

The groanings do not come from "our" spirit but from the Holy Spirit. Again you are failing to distinguish between "my spirit" and The Holy Spirit.

Jesus is said to have groaned in his spirit BEFORE Pentecost and yet he did not speak in tongues.

 

[awaken]

You are part of charismania as a movment regardless of what church you might or might not attend and therefore you have the same problem because you believe the prophetic and apostolic gifts have no more ceased then the sign gifts.

I am in a Baptist church that believes in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit to edify the all. Some might call that full gospel Baptist! But that is not what is on our sign! It still has SBC on the sign. But all that aside! I believe what the Bible says over any denomination..no one denomination has complete truth!

Name one single modern day prophet who has passed the Biblical tests of a prophet!

Never met one! But what does that prove?

Name one single modern day apostle who has met the Biblical qualifications of an apostle?

Again, never met one..but that does not prove tongues does not exist today!

Your "sign" gifts are no more valid than your prophet and apostolic gifts today as one is inseparable to the other.

The manifestation of the Holy Spirit was given to all..to profit all ....not just to the apostles.

You belief system is part of the confused, divided contradictory movement that has spread its tinacles into many different denominations.

No, I base my belief on what the Bible says!

 

[The Biblicist]

I quoted the Bible...These sign shall follow them that believe. Believe what? The apostles preaching of the gospel!!

You are side stepping the issue of this debate. You denied that tongues are necessary to be a believer in the former post. I then quoted your own words that proved you do believe that all believers "will speak" in tongues. You now confirm this by doubling down again on it. Make up your mind!

Either all true believers speak in tongues or they do not! Paul says they do not (1 Cor. 12:29-30). Mark 16 does not say ALL believers speak in tongues any more than ALL believers will handle snakes or drink poision.

You are now teaching the apostate doctrine of the UPC and thus "another gospel" than the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, speaking to God is prayer!!!!!!

Where do you find the word "prayer" in 1 Cor. 14:2?????? You don't He is talking about speaking in tongues in GENERAL whether it is prayer, preaching, teaching, exhortation, singing or any other way you use your mouth to speak. He is talkiing about speaking in tongues in a CHURCH context as I have proved that chapters 11-14 refer to a church context and does so repeatedly from chapter 11 to chapter 14.

There is no PRIVATE prayer tongue in these chapters - None, zilch, nada!

 

[The Biblicist]

I am in a Baptist church that believes in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit to edify the all. Some might call that full gospel Baptist! But that is not what is on our sign! It still has SBC on the sign. But all that aside! I believe what the Bible says over any denomination..no one denomination has complete truth!

Never met one! But what does that prove?

Again, never met one..but that does not prove tongues does not exist today!

The manifestation of the Holy Spirit was given to all..to profit all ....not just to the apostles.


No, I base my belief on what the Bible says!

You are simply being devious and deceptive. Do you or do you not believe that the gift of prophet and apostle are for today? If not, then how can you argue that APOSTOLIC signs and wonders are for today?

It makes no difference if YOU know one or not, the fact is they are all FALSE just as your esctatic utterance is a counterfit of Biblicall tongues.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have explained my view on this and it does not contadict scripture! You still have to yield to the Holy Spirit...whether it is your tongue, mind, hands, feet, heart.

Therefore how can you arbritrarily take texts such as the one in Jude where NO MENTION OF TONGUES can be found and yet demand merely on the basis fo the words "in the Holy Spirit" that praying in tongues are in view?? Did Jesus pray "in the Spirit" in John 17?

The fact is you do not understand the Biblical use of the phrase "in the Spirit" and that is why you make this rediculous claim. Go study Paul's use of that phrase and what he contrasts it too (Rom. 8:8-9; Gal. 5:14-25; etc.).

 

[awaken]

Thank you for this admission of error! That is precisely true and without interpretation you are no more edified than the listeners as you have no idea you even were praying but could have been teaching or preaching in tongues and have no idea you said a "blessing" or made a rebuke" without understanding what you said. Verses 15-17 is in a context of LISTENERS as verse 17 explicitly states and there is no reference to PRIVATE prayer tongues here at all. Paul puts forth a consideration by introducing it with "IF" in verse 15 and then a complete repudiation of that consideration by explicitly stating he "WILL" do the very reverse in regard to his own practice. Nothing could be plainer and clearer IF the context is recognized for what it plainly says.

First, nowhere in scriptues does it say to "preach" or "teach" in tongues!

vs. 14 says that "tongues" is "praying with my spirit"...yet my mind does not understand. That is why we are to pray for the interpretation.
vs. 15 is plain in that he says we will pray with both by using AND!

You simply jerk verse 2 out of its context to fit your theory! This is a CHURCH context as one only has to see the whole context of 1 Cor. 11-14 is set in the context of what occurs in the assembly. 1 Cor. 14 is set in the context of the assembly. There is no contextual support for any kind of PRIVATE TONGUE PRAYING in this entire chapter. Not one verse IF that verse is intepreted in its context.

Whether it is in church or not Paul still says that tongues is speaking to God not man!

Jude says nothing about praying in tongues. Your rediculous intepretation would require the phrase "in the Spirit" when connected witih prayer to mean that tongues are always in view when nothing could be further from the truth. Your intepretation would mean that regular praying as Jesus taught his disciples could not be praying "in the Spirit" or worse yet the praying recorded in John 17 was not praying "in the Spirit."

No, I am not saying that and neither did Paul! Paul called it "praying with my spirit" "speaking to God" I let scripture define a prayer "in the spirit." Paul tells us exactly what this is. the problem is, you don't like Paul's answer.

Paul also says to pray with understanding...he makes the distinction between the two!

You have not even reached a point of understanding scriptures that "in the Spirit' is ALWAYS in contrast to "in the flesh" and refers to one of two ways to live, practice, perform, speak, teach, preach, everything you say and do.

I do understand the difference! But you, sir, ignore scriputures that say "tongues" is "praying with your spirit"..