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The book of Enoch, scripture or not?

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
See, this is a false delema. First of all the discussion isn't about "dividing the word of truth". Or the meaning of a text from scriptures. Thus the requirement of having used sources not inspired by God becomes moot. We are asking a question of history which like all academic studies of history we attempt to assertain by eyewitnesses to that history.

History is uninspired and therefore subject to error. It is incomplete and therefore can never be final. It is limited to personal bias, knowledge of men.

Isaiah 8:16-18 is not subject to historical inquiry as it is accepted as scripture on all sides. It speaks directly to the issue of completing the Biblical canon and quoted by New Testament writers and most importantly by the final writer and the final book of the New Testament canon. I will take Isaiah's word over yours or over your uninspired scholars.


Whether the men themselves are heretics is irrelevant to the discussion of history.

Not so, especially when they contradict those who did write by inspiration.


However, I do find it telling that for proof of your position you will cite a person you consider a "heretic".

As I have told you before on several occassions, I can quote your own sources to contradict your own sources since you will not accept the scriptures.

However, it is obvious, or should be, that all the New Testament was completed in the life time of the Apostles and thus the canon was complete regardless how uninspired "heretics" viewed it or not.







The last book of canon was actually writen during the last of the apostles life. That doesn't mean what was considered OT canon was settled at that point by early Christians.

God never gave the OT canon to be settled by post-first coming saints but he gave it to Israel (Rom. 3:1-2; 9:5) as the guardians of the OT Canon and they did not accept the apocrypha as scripture. Jesus did not accept it as scripture as Jesus identified the first prophet to be Abel and the last to be Zechariah when he spoke about Israel rejecting ALL the prophets. Hence, rejected as prophets those between Zechariah and Matthew and some some of these writings recorded sufferings as well but NOT AS PROPHETS.


Because the gospel and the christian faith was primarily and firstly spead and propegated by oral teaching.

As in the case of Old Testament prophets the oral was replaced by the written record and the oral traditions were never regarded as inspired by Jesus or any of the Apostles but cited as having ERROR in them and corrected. No "scriptures" were ever corrected by Christ and the Apostles.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
History is uninspired and therefore subject to error. It is incomplete and therefore can never be final. It is limited to personal bias, knowledge of men.

Isaiah 8:16-18 is not subject to historical inquiry as it is accepted as scripture on all sides. It speaks directly to the issue of completing the Biblical canon and quoted by New Testament writers and most importantly by the final writer and the final book of the New Testament canon. I will take Isaiah's word over yours or over your uninspired scholars.




Not so, especially when they contradict those who did write by inspiration.




As I have told you before on several occassions, I can quote your own sources to contradict your own sources since you will not accept the scriptures.

However, it is obvious, or should be, that all the New Testament was completed in the life time of the Apostles and thus the canon was complete regardless how uninspired "heretics" viewed it or not.









God never gave the OT canon to be settled by post-first coming saints but he gave it to Israel (Rom. 3:1-2; 9:5) as the guardians of the OT Canon and they did not accept the apocrypha as scripture. Jesus did not accept it as scripture as Jesus identified the first prophet to be Abel and the last to be Zechariah when he spoke about Israel rejecting ALL the prophets. Hence, rejected as prophets those between Zechariah and Matthew and some some of these writings recorded sufferings as well but NOT AS PROPHETS.




As in the case of Old Testament prophets the oral was replaced by the written record and the oral traditions were never regarded as inspired by Jesus or any of the Apostles but cited as having ERROR in them and corrected. No "scriptures" were ever corrected by Christ and the Apostles.

Here is an interesting challenge to the inspiration of Enoch

http://www.brainout.net/EnochTest.htm
 

Bob Hope

Member
Did you notice the two treatments or beliefs from those documents (Enoch and Jasher) have shaped the two primary camps people find themselves in with regard to Genesis "the heros of old", "Giants in the land", and "nephalim"? Also Jasher shows a view held by some regarding the tower of Babylon Story I find very interesting because though many Pastors when answering questions regarding these things in genesis seem to repeat the views fromt hose texts who believe they assertained that perspective from scripture alone. Many of whom never even read those books! Go ahead and test it out. Ask your pastor about who the "sons of God" were and see their reply they may either take the Jasher view or the Enoch view. See how they answer your questions and compare to those books and take scripture and try to assertain how they came to that speculative view with little information in the genesis text itself.


That’s interesting. Something else I found interesting about Jasher was the sins of those wicked men in Sodom was not that they were homosexuals but that they were murderers and thieves. Lot broke the city rules by attempting to help outsiders. Most people who read the bible only read too much into the story.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That’s interesting. Something else I found interesting about Jasher was the sins of those wicked men in Sodom was not that they were homosexuals but that they were murderers and thieves. Lot broke the city rules by attempting to help outsiders. Most people who read the bible only read too much into the story.

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Don't sound like murder and theives was the reason to me?
 

Bob Hope

Member
Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Don't sound like murder and theives was the reason to me?


It's good to see you enjoy reading my posts.....maybe they were committing many sins.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
.maybe they were committing many sins.

In Romans 1:22-29 there is a descending spiral of depravity an homosexuality is toward the bottom of that descending spiral.

Seems strange that Jude would say Sodom and Gomorah are set forth as "EXAMPLES" of the most severe judgement of God for the very things you claim on the basis of a non-scriptural writing that was not their real grounds for destruction. We know Jude is inspired and so that would seem to be another proof that the apocrypha was not inspired.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
History is uninspired and therefore subject to error. It is incomplete and therefore can never be final. It is limited to personal bias, knowledge of men.
And here your problems begin and how your false delemma is problematic. Let me explain. With regard to a discussion about God a man (singular) may be in error especially if they are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. And this becomes a valid point when discussing a meaning of a text of Scripture. That is not what we are discussing. We are discussing what may be assertained from eyewitness to events that happened long ago. For instance neither you nor I were alive during the sinking of the Titanic. And I think all the people who survived are now passed away. However, irrelevant to what they believe about God a consensus of eyewitness to the event of the sinking of the Titanic which were recorded in writing can give us a reliable understanding of the event. The fact that archeologist are able to verify the eyewitness accounts to the sinking of that ship by sending robotic submarines to that ship only supports the accounts. In the same way we can assertain certian things about the compilation of scripture from ancient eyewitness and their documentation.

Isaiah 8:16-18 is not subject to historical inquiry as it is accepted as scripture on all sides. It speaks directly to the issue of completing the Biblical canon and quoted by New Testament writers and most importantly by the final writer and the final book of the New Testament canon. I will take Isaiah's word over yours or over your uninspired scholars.
This expresses how incongruent your approach is. Obviously this is prophetic statement but how it can be applied can be diverse. For instance to which time period is Isaiah referring. It seems the prophesy is more closely related to the imminent invasion of the Assyrians and the condemnation of the Northern Kingdom. And the specific verse you mention follows a principle of trusting in the lord and follow his law (Torah). Also, One could take the passage to mean "Let some faithful witnesses keep this prophecy, that when it is verified, all may be convinced." Using the King James version it says "seal the law" which specifically means Torah. This is cannot therefore be taken as a statement regarding the whole of Canon. It certianly cannot be used to distinguish which books are considered canon.

Not so, especially when they contradict those who did write by inspiration.
two points. First of all who do you consider "inspired" in 100-400 AD? Secondly, Another false delemma in that by "contradict" you mean hold to your view of how you interpret scripture. Which you are colored by the era and culture you currently exist rather than any experience of that actual time. So in fact they may not be "contradicting" but rather expressing what they consider to be entirely congruent with scriptures.

As I have told you before on several occassions, I can quote your own sources to contradict your own sources since you will not accept the scriptures.
Another false delemma. I accept the scriptures. What I reject is your personal interpretation as can be seen by the many Christian denominations interpretation of scriptures is as diverse as are the people who offer their opinions about them. The fact that you can quote one person you fail to offer the consensus of that persons time period among all the writing available. "Given" that a person may be falible when you have a majority of witnesses to a particular event the more often repreated account has more reliability. And that is where your argument goes off.

However, it is obvious, or should be, that all the New Testament was completed in the life time of the Apostles and thus the canon was complete regardless how uninspired "heretics" viewed it or not.
And where you problem lies is that though all the documentes were writen what was considered inspired wasn't settled until much later. And the fact that there was no consensus for this during the early church is evidence of it.

God never gave the OT canon to be settled by post-first coming saints but he gave it to Israel (Rom. 3:1-2; 9:5) as the guardians of the OT Canon and they did not accept the apocrypha as scripture.
Not true. They may not have later considered apocrypha scripture after the progression of Christianity but certainly the fact that the only recorded even of Hannukah is recorded in Macc. certainly when quoting the OT Non palestinian Jews and Christians quoted from the LXX which contained these books.

Jesus did not accept it as scripture as Jesus identified the first prophet to be Abel and the last to be Zechariah when he spoke about Israel rejecting ALL the prophets.
False argument in that non of the apocryphal personalities are considered prophets.

As in the case of Old Testament prophets the oral was replaced by the written record and the oral traditions were never regarded as inspired by Jesus
It seems you need to read Matthew 23 again
The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do
Place of Oral teaching. Also how about Matthew 2:23
that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, ‘He shall be called a Nazarene.
The written word no where says that therefore it must be Oral teaching.
 

Bob Hope

Member
In Romans 1:22-29 there is a descending spiral of depravity an homosexuality is toward the bottom of that descending spiral.

We know..... .


Who's the we. You mean, you FEEL Jude is inspired? I would agree with that feeling. I also feel that many parts of Enoch are inspired.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
And here your problems begin and how your false delemma is problematic. Let me explain. With regard to a discussion about God a man (singular) may be in error especially if they are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. And this becomes a valid point when discussing a meaning of a text of Scripture. That is not what we are discussing. We are discussing what may be assertained from eyewitness to events that happened long ago. For instance neither you nor I were alive during the sinking of the Titanic. And I think all the people who survived are now passed away. However, irrelevant to what they believe about God a consensus of eyewitness to the event of the sinking of the Titanic which were recorded in writing can give us a reliable understanding of the event. The fact that archeologist are able to verify the eyewitness accounts to the sinking of that ship by sending robotic submarines to that ship only supports the accounts. In the same way we can assertain certian things about the compilation of scripture from ancient eyewitness and their documentation.

God's Word is not bound! God's Word does not need human verification to be God's Word. What a document does need to be regarded as God's Word is INTERNAL witness that harmonizes with what has already been confirmed by God as His Word - Isa. 8:20.


For instance to which time period is Isaiah referring. It seems the prophesy is more closely related to the imminent invasion of the Assyrians and the condemnation of the Northern Kingdom. And the specific verse you mention follows a principle of trusting in the lord and follow his law (Torah).

I used the immediate context to answer all these objections before and the conclusion was that you simply stopped responding BECAUSE every objection you made about the immediate context of Isaiah 8:16 proved by the context to be bogus and you are simply repeating your bogus arguments.

If you would care to once again enter into a contextual debate on Isaiah 8:16 - pleeeeeeeease do.



Also, One could take the passage to mean "Let some faithful witnesses keep this prophecy, that when it is verified, all may be convinced." Using the King James version it says "seal the law" which specifically means Torah.

Isaiah 8:16 is placed in a prophetic context of Christ (Isa. 7:14 to Isaiah 9:6) and Isaiah 8:14-15 and verse 18 are directly applied to Christ and his apostles by New Testament writers. So you are OUT OF CONTEXT!

Thus "the law" in that propehtic context refers to the whole Old Testament and is how Christ and the Apostles often referred to the whole Old Testament (Mt. 5:16-17). The "testimony" refers to precisely what the apostolic office was established for - to be a WITNESS of Christ and the last book of the Bible - the Book of Revelation claims to be such a "testimony" which takes the reader from the time of John to eternity an closes with a seal thus in keeping not only with Isaiah 8:16 but with Isaiah 8:18 in regard to the Apostles (Heb. 2:3-4, 12) and the next revelation from heaven being the second coming of Christ (Isa. 8:18; Rev. 21:20-21).
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
two points. First of all who do you consider "inspired" in 100-400 AD?

No one! All you can produce is writings during that no one else considered inspired either.


Secondly, Another false delemma in that by "contradict" you mean hold to your view of how you interpret scripture. Which you are colored by the era and culture you currently exist rather than any experience of that actual time. So in fact they may not be "contradicting" but rather expressing what they consider to be entirely congruent with scriptures.

What???????????


Another false delemma. I accept the scriptures.

No you do not! You accept them with QUALIFICATIONS and your qualifications repudate them.



What I reject is your personal interpretation as can be seen by the many Christian denominations interpretation of scriptures is as diverse as are the people who offer their opinions about them.

And look at Rome's track record! Pathetic! And should I yeild to your personal interpretations? lol.

The fact that you can quote one person you fail to offer the consensus of that persons time period among all the writing available. "Given" that a person may be falible when you have a majority of witnesses to a particular event the more often repreated account has more reliability. And that is where your argument goes off.

Again, real scriptures do not need majority opinions as they are the Word of God in spite of majority opinion. They have INTERNAL evidence that correspond to previous confirmed scriptures (Isa. 8:20).


Not true. They may not have later considered apocrypha scripture after the progression of Christianity but certainly the fact that the only recorded even of Hannukah is recorded in Macc. certainly when quoting the OT Non palestinian Jews and Christians quoted from the LXX which contained these books.

I am sure your arguments make sense in your own mind but I see no sense at all in them.


False argument in that non of the apocryphal personalities are considered prophets.

Another nonsensical argument.


It seems you need to read Matthew 23 again Place of Oral teaching. Also how about Matthew 2:23 The written word no where says that therefore it must be Oral teaching.

Another nonsensical argument. Have you read Matthew 5:20-48 and other similar texts where ORAL TRADITIONS are being repudiated, exposed for error! That is hardly the evidence of INSPIRED sayings.
 

saturneptune

New Member
What I've said is true. And I haven't infered anything apart that canon was not closed (meaning not that they weren't finished being written rather which collection of books were considered to be "inspired".) at the time of the apostles and what was considered canon was more fluid than what people generally believe today.


having read the late Dr. David Flusser's (professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Orthodox Jew) works on the second temple period scripture this expresses that this statement of yours isn't entirely accurate. He holds a more open Jewish canon at the time of the apostles. Though at a later date the Jews did "close their canon" after the already spreading Christianity an established faith at that time and as a response to Christianity's influence on Judaism. You cannot seriously contend that the Jews establishing a canon after the inseption and spread of Christianity was "entrusted to them" by God when their motivation was to limit the spread of Christianity now do you?

Actually, I didn't even speak to this topic. This is a topic you introduced which means you are attempting to set up a straw man. My only Comment with regard to the book of Revelation is that it was an apocalyptic literary type similar to the book of Enoch which type of literature was popular at the time.
You also trust in a Bible that includes Macabees and other uninspired books.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Be careful what you call uninspired. All truth is of God.

So if I say "The sky is blue", my statement is inspired by God and is now Scripture?

I know who you are and I can't believe we are actually arguing with someone who believes in heresy.
 
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