Scripture is clear that God does harden hearts and blind those who have chosen to reject Him over and over. This does not mean everyone's heart is hardened by God.
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Calvin on Regeneration
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
Scripture is clear that God does harden hearts and blind those who have chosen to reject Him over and over. This does not mean everyone's heart is hardened by God.
i realy don't understand your nasty attitude. where is the manifestation of Christ in your speech? Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ. We can debate doctrines without malice, at least I should hope so.
Agreed, we should be able to discuss this without dividing over it!
Just curious, those holding to a calvinistic salvation view hold thatyou still must receive jesus by faith to get saved by him, do you think we teach that we are programmed Robots or something?
Here is what I see as the key difference between Calvinistic and Armenian that divides us;
Calvinism would say the Holy Spirit must create a new heart before faith can operate and save. AND....there is no choice, the person is caused to believe.
Armenian would say the Holy Spirit must convict and draw before faith can operate and save. AND....there is a choice, the person is not caused to believe, but allowed the opportunity to believe by the extended grace of God. If this extended grace goes ignored or rejected, at some point in God's sovereign timing it can and will be withdrawn and God will harden one's heart.
Both views place God first in the salvation process. So Calvinist need to stop with the "God is Sovereign" rhetoric because God's soveriegnty is not challenged nor disregarded in anyway whatsoever in the Armenian pov.
Your delusional! Im not even trying to be nasty to you. What do you want out of me ....want me to throw roses at you.....that isnt going to happen. That isnt my style.
Now I have a brother who is a pastor & I dont pull any punches with him. As brothers in Christ we need to hear each others positions but you have made it a point to say that the DoG believer is not credible....I beg to differ. And I will voice my belief system when I believe its necessary. Further, I have full confidence that my belief system is the proper orthodox viewpoint.....while also realizing that its (like other beliefs) a view from a point. I also have told you that I reject both Calvinism & Arminism....one can follow a systematic theology without walking lockstep with John Calvin. If you really have a bug up your butt about Calvinist then I suggest you post on the Puritan Forum, they are chock full of John Calvin / Presbyterian followers.
Not exactly. The bottom line here is that the decisive acts in the salvation sequence is Gods, and even the matters for which we are responsible (repentance and faith, sanctification) are possible only because of Gods prior working. It is the acts of GOD that matter, not one of us would be saved.
So do we have to believe? Of course, we do. But even faith is of God or, as it is better to say, it is the result of his working in us.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Thanks for this post Yeshua1. That I bolded is the reason I ended one of my post with;
I care not what Bro. Cal or Bro. Arm.thought.
I said that primarily relative to faith which when used in a saving context more ofter than not has the word, "the." preceeding.
Calvinist or should I say Calvin had to determine where, "his," saving faith came from.
Now I believe we are given a gift of faith by measure but I believe it is given us with the Holy Spirit which we received through the faith of Christ, his giving his life a ransom for many, (a Noun) an event, (a Noun) dying on the cross.
The phrase, "obedience of faith," is found twice, Rom. 1:5 and Rom. 16:26.
That was an event that took place. In both places, both words, obedience and faith are nouns. It isn't something that comes from us nor something we do. It was an event that took place in the life of Christ by which the blessings of Abraham might come on the nations (Gentiles). It was the means by which the promise of the Spirit could be given to the nations, for obedience of faith.
Read Romans 1:5, Romans 16:25,26 and Galatians 3:13,14 and please correct me if I am wrong. This goes for all who read this.
BTW this, "the faith," is the same faith spoken of in Hebrews 11. There it is speaking of the events that happened in the lives of those spoken of happened for the faith which was to come. See Gal 3:22-25.
Romans 3:30 Seeing one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through the faith
The circumcision there having the same meaning as under the law will be justified by the faith to come.
The uncircumcision being the nations the Gentiles who are now justified by the faith that did come.
Of course If I am correct all of salvation has to be of the Lord God through election through Jesus Christ our Lord for faith is something pertaining to God the Father and Jesus.
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Winman
It is easier to just make a blanket denial of truth ,than interact with the truth presented.I have pointed this out to you before.Again you want to fragment the word which is a unit.
No one is speaking about indwelling...we are speaking about the Spirits work in salvation.....follow the posts.
No....you are saying that but he does not say that. In fact he knows that faith and regeneration are given at conversion by God.
You are not teachable , so all you do is oppose all manner of learned men.
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It is easier to just make a blanket denial of truth ,than interact with the truth presented.I have pointed this out to you before.Again you want to fragment the word which is a unit.
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No one is speaking about indwelling...we are speaking about the Spirits work in salvation.....follow the posts.
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No....you are saying that but he does not say that. In fact he knows that faith and regeneration are given at conversion by God.
You are not teachable , so all you do is oppose all manner of learned men.
No one said they had......but no one is saved without the Spirit...Jesus said he has been with you, He shall be in you. You keep changing to talk about indwelling when the topic is regeneration...try and stay on topic:type:
If you understood them ...you would not be embarrassed. You should be embarrassed by not understanding these teachers which many persons have mentioned to you.....but then you slander them which is sad.
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"Isn't your style"?
Now you told me that you have walked "lock step with Christ in every way". Then why do I see, and I believe others here see as well, a "style" of quite frankly as you put it "don't give a sh##" about other's feelings. Is this Christlike, "lock and step"?
Now, maybe it's just me misunderstanding you, so maybe someone else here could step in and moderate the situation. I think the tone of your post are a bit unchristlike, and I have tried to caringly point it out to you, and I just seem to get more attitude. You are saying it's just your style, well, if we find ourselves having a style that is not like Christ then we should be adjusting that style to conform to the immage of Christ. Wouldn't you agree?
Where I grew up we would call you a pansey a cry baby, a wussy. Get over yourself. Your hiidden agenda is obvious...even when I attempt to explain things to you, you deflict with petty insulted feelings. Look I'm done with you. Go annoy somebody else.
Sorry to have upset you. May God bless you and your's richly!
No Ive been unfair to you.... I apologize.
Thank you for that brother! Without love we are nothing! Love you man! You are welcome in my home anytime, and in my threads! Lol :thumbs:
What I have found over the years of studying and debating this topic of Election is this; even if one believes Election in the way of the TULIP pov, the way they actually preach is as an Armenian pov. They really have no choice but to preach in this way, for this is how the scriptures preach it, they warn their listeners to examine themselves, they warn their listeners to make sure they are born again, they warn their listeners they better make a choice for Christ. These are all Armenian pov sermons concerning regeneration and are they way the scripture exhorts. So it does not bother me that some preachers believe in TULIP, for when they preach, they must preach as an Armenian preacher!
The sermon I provided from John MacArthur proves this point perfectly!
The sermon I provided from John MacArthur proves this point perfectly!
Let me make sure I understand....are you asking why do DoG believers preach, your premise is if the DoG believer is already sure that all of the elect are going to be saved in Heaven, so why preach at all? Your saying that any preaching runs counter to DoG Doctrine but not Arminian doctrine so therefore its Arminian in nature...is that it?
saturneptune
New Member
Being a Calvin or Arminian local church is totally an unrelated issue to missions, outreach and visitation. We are commanded to go tell the Gospel to all the world. It says nothing about God electing, so why bother. It is not for us to analyze God's mind on how He accomplishes His purposes. It is for us to obey, and Jesus commands us to go and tell. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
No, I'm not saying they should not preach, all i'm saying is that when I hear them preach (like John MacArthur) their sermon sounds exactly like that of one preaching from an Armenian pov as though the listeners can actually DO something about being saved, when they will tell you otherwise in a discussion that they cannot. To their credit, they have no choice but to preach the Armenian pov for that is how the scriptures present the invitation to follow Christ and they are being faithful to the scripture in their actual preaching.
Very true, but we are not speaking about the command to preach but rather the message within that preaching. TULIP preachers, even though they believe a person has no choice, preach to their listeners CHOOSE this day!
I did not read what Johnnie Mac wrote...I personally don't like him...I do nor feel he represents me as I am more inclined toward Old School Baptists beliefs
Now as to why WE preach, it's for the comfort and instruction of the Lord's people (Isa. 40: 1-2, 9; Eph.4: 11-16).