Progress! Now, how do the Elect become the Elect?
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Total Spiritual Inability
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Progress! Now, how do the Elect become the Elect?
Cannot put my finger on it but there is something unsettling about this comment.
Thomas,
No matter what topic is being considered....it should be unsettling to so explain away a verse, that you no longer have the verse....
sounds like-----Hath God said you shalt not surely die?????
A simplistic perversion of what DoG believe. But I have come to expect no less from those who fail to take the time to investigate thoroughly DoG doctrine. And it is a waste of time to try to reason with those whose minds are thoroughly set against something they do not really understand.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
well, God desired that all would repent and be saved, but he also knew that ONLY the Elect will have the will/means/desire available to actually turn to Christ and be saved!
This does not resemble the biblical teaching at all.Do some reading.
This does not resemble the biblical teaching at all.Do some reading.
bible states that God desire is that all men would repent and be saved by christ, yet he also knows that they CANNOT do that in and of themselves, so the death of Jesus was for the atonement of those whom he xhosen to receive jesus and became saved, the Elect!
Progress! Now, how do the Elect become the Elect?
they already are from all eternity, as God predestined them whom He foreknew, as it was due to HIS Will ALONE they would receive jesus and become saved!
Their salvation confirms their original election!
they already are from all eternity, as God predestined them whom He foreknew, as it was due to HIS Will ALONE they would receive jesus and become saved!
Their salvation confirms their original election!
Got it,so then it is the case that it is Gods will alone that the rest can not receive salvation. Even though you say it is also Gods will that all be saved.
Truth is unsettling to those who believe in falsehood.
Unbiblical Calvinist order.
1) God chooses foreseen individuals before creation.
2) During their lifetime, He drags them irresistibly into Christ.
3) As He is dragging them, He compels them to willingly come to faith.
4) Since the spiritually dead people cannot come to faith, this action is called regeneration.
Why is this view unbiblical?
1) John 6:44 does not say everyone drawn by the Father comes to Jesus.
2) Mathew 23:13 says men were entering heaven yet were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine.
3) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. So our faith comes before being chosen.
The Biblical Order:
1) God chose those who the Redeemer would redeem corporately when He chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world.
2) God reveals His redemption plan to mankind through the work of the Holy Spirit, which is the promise of eternal life for those that seek God and trust in Christ from the heart.
3) If our hearts have not been hardened by the practice of sin or by God for His purpose, we hear and understand the gospel. This is God setting before us the choice of life or death. He begs us to choose life. God draws us with His lovingkindness, but does not compel us.
4) Some reject the gospel, some accept it superficially, some put it into their heart, but do not toss out their worldly treasurers also embedded in their hearts, and some fully trust in Christ alone, selling everything for the treasure found in the field.
5) God who knows what is hidden in our hearts, credits as righteousness the faith of those whose faith is from the heart, who love Jesus more than anything in this world.
6) God gives these to Christ by placing them spiritually in Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, made alive from being spiritually dead by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit,
7) They are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever as a pledge they will not be cast out and will be resurrected on the last day.
So God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, therefore He chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Everything fits, all scripture, once you accept what scripture says, rather than rewrite it.
Unbiblical Calvinist order.
1) God chooses foreseen individuals before creation.
2) During their lifetime, He drags them irresistibly into Christ.
3) As He is dragging them, He compels them to willingly come to faith.
4) Since the spiritually dead people cannot come to faith, this action is called regeneration.
Why is this view unbiblical?
1) John 6:44 does not say everyone drawn by the Father comes to Jesus.
2) Mathew 23:13 says men were entering heaven yet were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine.
3) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. So our faith comes before being chosen.
The Biblical Order:
1) God chose those who the Redeemer would redeem corporately when He chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world.
2) God reveals His redemption plan to mankind through the work of the Holy Spirit, which is the promise of eternal life for those that seek God and trust in Christ from the heart.
3) If our hearts have not been hardened by the practice of sin or by God for His purpose, we hear and understand the gospel. This is God setting before us the choice of life or death. He begs us to choose life. God draws us with His lovingkindness, but does not compel us.
4) Some reject the gospel, some accept it superficially, some put it into their heart, but do not toss out their worldly treasurers also embedded in their hearts, and some fully trust in Christ alone, selling everything for the treasure found in the field.
5) God who knows what is hidden in our hearts, credits as righteousness the faith of those whose faith is from the heart, who love Jesus more than anything in this world.
6) God gives these to Christ by placing them spiritually in Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, made alive from being spiritually dead by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit,
7) They are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever as a pledge they will not be cast out and will be resurrected on the last day.
So God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, therefore He chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Everything fits, all scripture, once you accept what scripture says, rather than rewrite it.
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Truth is unsettling to those who believe in falsehood.
Unbiblical Calvinist order.
1) God chooses foreseen individuals before creation.
2) During their lifetime, He drags them irresistibly into Christ.
3) As He is dragging them, He compels them to willingly come to faith.
4) Since the spiritually dead people cannot come to faith, this action is called regeneration.
Why is this view unbiblical?
1) John 6:44 does not say everyone drawn by the Father comes to Jesus.
2) Mathew 23:13 says men were entering heaven yet were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine.
3) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. So our faith comes before being chosen.
The Biblical Order:
1) God chose those who the Redeemer would redeem corporately when He chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world.
2) God reveals His redemption plan to mankind through the work of the Holy Spirit, which is the promise of eternal life for those that seek God and trust in Christ from the heart.
3) If our hearts have not been hardened by the practice of sin or by God for His purpose, we hear and understand the gospel. This is God setting before us the choice of life or death. He begs us to choose life. God draws us with His lovingkindness, but does not compel us.
4) Some reject the gospel, some accept it superficially, some put it into their heart, but do not toss out their worldly treasurers also embedded in their hearts, and some fully trust in Christ alone, selling everything for the treasure found in the field.
5) God who knows what is hidden in our hearts, credits as righteousness the faith of those whose faith is from the heart, who love Jesus more than anything in this world.
6) God gives these to Christ by placing them spiritually in Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, made alive from being spiritually dead by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit,
7) They are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever as a pledge they will not be cast out and will be resurrected on the last day.
So God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, therefore He chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Everything fits, all scripture, once you accept what scripture says, rather than rewrite it.
God begging?? What pitiful soteriology!
The reason for that is it's called hot air. The Bible calls it a Clanging symbol.Cannot put my finger on it but there is something unsettling about this comment.
MB
Got it,so then it is the case that it is Gods will alone that the rest can not receive salvation. Even though you say it is also Gods will that all be saved.
Would you be saying God doesn't get His way When it's His will???. I wonder how that effects God's Sovereignty. I need Scripture please? That shows men cannot be saved.
MB
Got it,so then it is the case that it is Gods will alone that the rest can not receive salvation. Even though you say it is also Gods will that all be saved.
ALL of us are sinners, found by God in Adam, and in that state, NONE can or even will want to be saved!
God actively elects unto eternal life those whom he chooses and wills to come to Christ, and by passes the remainder of humanity, allowing them to go the way they willfully choose to go, apart from God!
Would you be saying God doesn't get His way When it's His will???. I wonder how that effects God's Sovereignty. I need Scripture please? That shows men cannot be saved.
MB
Not at all! God soverignity extends to all things, its just that His specific/determined Will is towards the elect, that ALL of them will have eternal life in Jesus ! God has a determinitive Will, and a permissive One!
Not at all! God soverignity extends to all things, its just that His specific/determined Will is towards the elect, that ALL of them will have eternal life in Jesus ! God has a determinitive Will, and a permissive One!
You have to remember that Reformed/Calvinists teach that God has two wills, a revealed will, and his secret will.
God's revealed will is something he tells us, such as he wills that all men come to repentance. But God's revealed will is not his REAL will.
God's REAL will is his secret will. God doesn't really and truly want all men to come to repentance and be saved, but only the elect. Now, how they found out this secret will, I've yet to find out.
In other words, according to Reformed/Calvinists God speaks out of both sides of his mouth and contradicts himself. That's a kind way of NOT saying they teach God lies. (But that is exactly what they teach).
You have to remember that Reformed/Calvinists teach that God has two wills, a revealed will, and his secret will.
God's revealed will is something he tells us, such as he wills that all men come to repentance. But God's revealed will is not his REAL will.
God's REAL will is his secret will. God doesn't really and truly want all men to come to repentance and be saved, but only the elect. Now, how they found out this secret will, I've yet to find out.
In other words, according to Reformed/Calvinists God speaks out of both sides of his mouth and contradicts himself. That's a kind way of NOT saying they teach God lies. (But that is exactly what they teach).
Think you are saying that God has the secret/hidden things reserved unto Himself!
Think you are saying that God has the secret/hidden things reserved unto Himself!
I am saying no such thing, it is you Reformed/Calvinists that teach God has two wills.
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/are-there-two-wills-in-god-yes
In essence, what the doctrine states is that there are... well... two wills in God. The first will is his will of command (or as Edwards says below, "law"). This is expressed through God's revealed desires for people, desires such as "Thou shalt not kill," or "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
The second will is his will of decree, which is the will by which God brings to pass all that actually happens, whether it accords with his will of command or not. This is also known as his secret will, since what God intends to do in any one event is unknowable to us, except for what he reveals through prophecy.
You are the guys that say God goes around openly declaring that he wills that all men everywhere repent, but secretly God decrees that only the elect will repent.
In other words, you teach that God is a liar.
Would you be saying God doesn't get His way When it's His will???. I wonder how that effects God's Sovereignty. I need Scripture please? That shows men cannot be saved.
MB
Relax MB,
Was just recapping what yeshua1 was stating. Not my stance at all. I would like to see that scripture too.
psalms109:31
Active Member
I do believe God did like Jonah change the circumstances around me to bring and enable me to repent and live, but it brought life and death before me not just life so choose today Jesus turn to Him and live.
Deuteronomy 30 :
The Offer of Life or Death
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I agree with Spurgeon
from http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/bio8.htm
"This breadth of heart was revealed on another occasion when in his prayer at a Thursday evening service he dared to go far beyond his creed, and in his passion for the souls of men cried, "Lord, hasten to bring in all Thine elect—and then elect some more."
I agree with Paul
Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
As Jesus said,
John 14:2
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
God will make room for you. It is easier to continue down the path that we have always followed and most will do so, but the one we might save as Paul said,
1 Corinthians 9 :
Paul’s Use of His Freedom
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
the more the truth will spread to the ends of the Earth. Not to what Paul believed was the ends of the Earth, but what we know of as the ends of the Earth and around and around it goes.
Deuteronomy 30 :
The Offer of Life or Death
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I agree with Spurgeon
from http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/bio8.htm
"This breadth of heart was revealed on another occasion when in his prayer at a Thursday evening service he dared to go far beyond his creed, and in his passion for the souls of men cried, "Lord, hasten to bring in all Thine elect—and then elect some more."
I agree with Paul
Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
As Jesus said,
John 14:2
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
God will make room for you. It is easier to continue down the path that we have always followed and most will do so, but the one we might save as Paul said,
1 Corinthians 9 :
Paul’s Use of His Freedom
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
the more the truth will spread to the ends of the Earth. Not to what Paul believed was the ends of the Earth, but what we know of as the ends of the Earth and around and around it goes.
Last edited by a moderator:
Truth is unsettling to those who believe in falsehood.
Unbiblical Calvinist order.
1) God chooses foreseen individuals before creation.
2) During their lifetime, He drags them irresistibly into Christ.
3) As He is dragging them, He compels them to willingly come to faith.
4) Since the spiritually dead people cannot come to faith, this action is called regeneration.
Why is this view unbiblical?
1) John 6:44 does not say everyone drawn by the Father comes to Jesus.
2) Mathew 23:13 says men were entering heaven yet were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine.
3) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. So our faith comes before being chosen.
The Biblical Order:
1) God chose those who the Redeemer would redeem corporately when He chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world.
2) God reveals His redemption plan to mankind through the work of the Holy Spirit, which is the promise of eternal life for those that seek God and trust in Christ from the heart.
3) If our hearts have not been hardened by the practice of sin or by God for His purpose, we hear and understand the gospel. This is God setting before us the choice of life or death. He begs us to choose life. God draws us with His lovingkindness, but does not compel us.
4) Some reject the gospel, some accept it superficially, some put it into their heart, but do not toss out their worldly treasurers also embedded in their hearts, and some fully trust in Christ alone, selling everything for the treasure found in the field.
5) God who knows what is hidden in our hearts, credits as righteousness the faith of those whose faith is from the heart, who love Jesus more than anything in this world.
6) God gives these to Christ by placing them spiritually in Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, made alive from being spiritually dead by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit,
7) They are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever as a pledge they will not be cast out and will be resurrected on the last day.
So God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, therefore He chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Everything fits, all scripture, once you accept what scripture says, rather than rewrite it.
Calvinist's deny God begs the lost to be reconciled to God through His ambassadors, saying that is a "pitiful" soteriology. But then we have 2 Corinthians 5:20 which says just that. Therefore Calvinists find fault with scripturally based teachings in order to support their mistaken view.
Unbiblical Calvinist order.
1) God chooses foreseen individuals before creation.
2) During their lifetime, He drags them irresistibly into Christ.
3) As He is dragging them, He compels them to willingly come to faith.
4) Since the spiritually dead people cannot come to faith, this action is called regeneration.
Why is this view unbiblical?
1) John 6:44 does not say everyone drawn by the Father comes to Jesus.
2) Mathew 23:13 says men were entering heaven yet were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine.
3) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. So our faith comes before being chosen.
The Biblical Order:
1) God chose those who the Redeemer would redeem corporately when He chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world.
2) God reveals His redemption plan to mankind through the work of the Holy Spirit, which is the promise of eternal life for those that seek God and trust in Christ from the heart.
3) If our hearts have not been hardened by the practice of sin or by God for His purpose, we hear and understand the gospel. This is God setting before us the choice of life or death. He begs us to choose life. God draws us with His lovingkindness, but does not compel us.
4) Some reject the gospel, some accept it superficially, some put it into their heart, but do not toss out their worldly treasurers also embedded in their hearts, and some fully trust in Christ alone, selling everything for the treasure found in the field.
5) God who knows what is hidden in our hearts, credits as righteousness the faith of those whose faith is from the heart, who love Jesus more than anything in this world.
6) God gives these to Christ by placing them spiritually in Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, made alive from being spiritually dead by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit,
7) They are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever as a pledge they will not be cast out and will be resurrected on the last day.
So God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, therefore He chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Everything fits, all scripture, once you accept what scripture says, rather than rewrite it.
Calvinist's deny God begs the lost to be reconciled to God through His ambassadors, saying that is a "pitiful" soteriology. But then we have 2 Corinthians 5:20 which says just that. Therefore Calvinists find fault with scripturally based teachings in order to support their mistaken view.
Total Spiritual Inability has been shown to be a mistaken doctrine, which conflicts with scripture after scripture. The view is defended by adding to scripture what is not found in scripture, thus no one seeks God becomes no one seeks God while unregenerate at any time. Not what it says.
The next ploy is to change the subject to some other mistaken tenant of Calvinism, also not supported by any scripture. And the dance away from truth continues, and not one Calvinist has come to his or her senses.
The next ploy is to change the subject to some other mistaken tenant of Calvinism, also not supported by any scripture. And the dance away from truth continues, and not one Calvinist has come to his or her senses.