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What Did John mean by "baptized by fire and Holy Glost"
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Two objects, wheat and chaff.
Two baptisms, clothed with power from on high (day of Pentecost), and the wrath to come (civil war of 66-70AD).
And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
Just as 8:12 'sons of the kingdom cast forth' is synonymous with Ro 11 'natural branches broken off' is synonymous with 13:41 'gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling' is synonymous with 13:49 'sever the wicked from among the righteous' is synonymous with 3:12 'thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor'.
[edit to add] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3:7
So actually within the context of Mt 3:7-12 there are three 'baptisms', the baptism of John, the baptism at Pentecost, and the wrath to come upon 'that generation'.
Two baptisms, clothed with power from on high (day of Pentecost), and the wrath to come (civil war of 66-70AD).
And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
Just as 8:12 'sons of the kingdom cast forth' is synonymous with Ro 11 'natural branches broken off' is synonymous with 13:41 'gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling' is synonymous with 13:49 'sever the wicked from among the righteous' is synonymous with 3:12 'thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor'.
[edit to add] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3:7
So actually within the context of Mt 3:7-12 there are three 'baptisms', the baptism of John, the baptism at Pentecost, and the wrath to come upon 'that generation'.
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evangelist-7
New Member
The correct wording as given in Matthew and Luke is: "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
John is referring to the baptism with the Holy Spirit (with the evidence of speaking in tongues)
... which is a special anointing (somewhat similar to God's anointing of the OT prophets),
and which has absolutely nothing to do with being born-again.
.
wasn't that actually fulfilled at pentacost though?
evangelist-7
New Member
Sure it was ...
Pentecost was the first occurrence, which really jump-started the church with a big bang!
No disputes about anything here ... everyone was in one accord.
P.S. God didn't allow Satan to mess things up (by deceiving man) quite yet.
The Satan ++ man combo = a huge obstacle to God's plans
(God's free-will creations)
.
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wasn't that a one time happening though? Not to be repeated ?
You have to be just totally not wanting to ‘get it’ to not see what ‘fire’ is signifying here in the context:
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3
A third grader could scan the word ‘fire’ in a concordance and come to a clear understanding of what ‘fire’ is OVERWHELMINGLY representative of in the scriptures:
31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee; I will blow upon thee with the fire of my wrath; and I will deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, skilful to destroy. Ezek 21
20 As they gather silver and brass and iron and lead and tin into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my wrath, and I will lay you there, and melt you.
21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. Ezek 22
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; Ezek 38
9 Thou wilt make them as a fiery furnace in the time of thine anger: Jehovah will swallow them up in his wrath, And the fire shall devour them. Ps 21
5 How long, O Jehovah? wilt thou be angry for ever? Shall thy jealousy burn like fire?
6 Pour out thy wrath upon the nations that know thee not, And upon the kingdoms that call not upon thy name. Ps 79
46 How long, O Jehovah? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? How long shall thy wrath burn like fire? Ps 89
4 Circumcise yourselves to Jehovah, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn so that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Jer 4
12 O house of David, thus saith Jehovah, Execute justice in the morning, and deliver him that is robbed out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn so that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Jer 21
4 He hath bent his bow like an enemy, he hath stood with his right hand as an adversary, And hath slain all that were pleasant to the eye: In the tent of the daughter of Zion he hath poured out his wrath like fire. Lam 2
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken asunder by him. Nahum 1
This ‘baptism of fire’ was exactly what He was referring to here:
49 I came to cast fire upon the earth [the land]; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51 Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Lu 12
And He clearly identifies EXACTLY what form this wrath [fire] was going to manifest itself, DIVISION, i.e., CIVIL WAR. Read, educate yourselves:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1671933#post1671933
“ In the history of "The Wars of the Jews" by Josephus we have a detailed account, written by an eye witness, of the almost unbelievable sufferings of the Jews during the siege of Jerusalem. To this account we will refer later on; but we wish to state at this point that the distresses of those who were hemmed in by the sudden appearance of the Roman armies were peculiar in this respect, namely, that what they endured was mainly self-inflicted. That is to say, they suffered far more from cruelties and tortures inflicted upon one another, than from the common enemy outside the walls. In this strange feature of the case it was surely "a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time" (#Da 12:1).”
Yes, the ‘baptism of fire’ came upon ‘THAT GENERATION’ of Christ’s day, the same generation that betrayed and murdered Him:
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3
A third grader could scan the word ‘fire’ in a concordance and come to a clear understanding of what ‘fire’ is OVERWHELMINGLY representative of in the scriptures:
31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee; I will blow upon thee with the fire of my wrath; and I will deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, skilful to destroy. Ezek 21
20 As they gather silver and brass and iron and lead and tin into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my wrath, and I will lay you there, and melt you.
21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. Ezek 22
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; Ezek 38
9 Thou wilt make them as a fiery furnace in the time of thine anger: Jehovah will swallow them up in his wrath, And the fire shall devour them. Ps 21
5 How long, O Jehovah? wilt thou be angry for ever? Shall thy jealousy burn like fire?
6 Pour out thy wrath upon the nations that know thee not, And upon the kingdoms that call not upon thy name. Ps 79
46 How long, O Jehovah? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? How long shall thy wrath burn like fire? Ps 89
4 Circumcise yourselves to Jehovah, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn so that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Jer 4
12 O house of David, thus saith Jehovah, Execute justice in the morning, and deliver him that is robbed out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn so that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Jer 21
4 He hath bent his bow like an enemy, he hath stood with his right hand as an adversary, And hath slain all that were pleasant to the eye: In the tent of the daughter of Zion he hath poured out his wrath like fire. Lam 2
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken asunder by him. Nahum 1
This ‘baptism of fire’ was exactly what He was referring to here:
49 I came to cast fire upon the earth [the land]; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51 Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Lu 12
And He clearly identifies EXACTLY what form this wrath [fire] was going to manifest itself, DIVISION, i.e., CIVIL WAR. Read, educate yourselves:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1671933#post1671933
“ In the history of "The Wars of the Jews" by Josephus we have a detailed account, written by an eye witness, of the almost unbelievable sufferings of the Jews during the siege of Jerusalem. To this account we will refer later on; but we wish to state at this point that the distresses of those who were hemmed in by the sudden appearance of the Roman armies were peculiar in this respect, namely, that what they endured was mainly self-inflicted. That is to say, they suffered far more from cruelties and tortures inflicted upon one another, than from the common enemy outside the walls. In this strange feature of the case it was surely "a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time" (#Da 12:1).”
Yes, the ‘baptism of fire’ came upon ‘THAT GENERATION’ of Christ’s day, the same generation that betrayed and murdered Him:
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21
evangelist-7
New Member
Yes, every time fire is mentioned in the Scriptures, it is referring to God's wrath.
Moses and the burning bush, etc. etc.
Okay, I get it ... I get it ... and your red is pretty too. Thanks.
.
It's like I said, you really just have to NOT want to see it, and my statement is concerning what ‘fire’ is signifying in THE CONTEXT of Mt 3:7-12:
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3
evangelist-7
New Member
Really, isn't everything a one-time happening?
When are conditions exactly the same for 2 happenings? Never.
2 things on the Day of Pentecost were unique to that very special day:
the sound like a mighty rushing wind, and the divided tongues of fire.
2 things on the Day of Pentecost were NOT unique to that very special day:
-- people were all filled with the Holy Spirit
-- they all began to speak with other tongues
In Acts 1:4-8, Jesus said this event would be about the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
In Acts 9:17-18, we see this baptism with people filled with the Holy Spirit.
The laying on of hands was involved in the impartation of this special gift.
In Acts 19:5-6, we see this baptism with tongues.
The laying on of hands was involved in the impartation of this special gift.
In all 3 of these passages, we are told the Holy Spirit came upon the recipients.
(This is similar to God's special anointing coming upon His prophets in the OT.)
A further clarification ... I can easily prove that ...
"the promise" and "the gift" (mentioned in Acts) were NOT the Holy Spirit,
but were this special anointing of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
.
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Why would we need to have tongues today, isn't the Holy spirit indwelling us, and the Bible sufficient to accomplish ALL God intended?
And weren't tongues a "lesser" gift, and bestowed as the Spriit willed upon whom he chose, not all even spoke in tongues, but EVERY one had a gift?
evangelist-7
New Member
Haven't we covered most of this previously?
The evidence/confirmation/proof that someone has:
-- been born again ... is a changed life(style), fruits of the Spirit, etc.
-- received the baptism with the Holy Spirit ... is some words in tongues
Beyond this, today, believers use tongues (in and out of church) more powerfully:
-- to praise the Lord
-- to pray
-- to prophecy, give words of wisdom, words of knowledge, etc.
-- to be used in healing, miracles, etc.
God's preferred method to evangelize was/is to present the gospel confirmed by S-W-M.
In NT times and today, the gospel was/is presented verbally.
(Today in foreign countries, most people get saved by the verbal gospel + S-W-M.)
.
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evangelist-7
New Member
To explain "the promise" and "the gift" ...
2 things on the Day of Pentecost were unique to that very special day:
the sound like a mighty rushing wind, and the divided tongues of fire.
2 things on the Day of Pentecost were NOT unique to that very special day:
-- the Holy Spirit fell upon people
-- people were all filled with the Holy Spirit
-- they all began to speak with other tongues
Before the Day of Pentecost
Acts 1:4-8
Jesus said this event would be about the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said the promise is this Holy Spirit baptism.
After the Day of Pentecost
Acts 9:17-18
The HS baptism is connected with being filled with the Holy Spirit.
The laying on of hands was involved in the impartation of this special gift.
Acts 19:5-6
The HS baptism is connected with speaking in tongues.
The laying on of hands was involved in the impartation of this special gift.
The promise is also mentioned by Jesus in Luke 24:49.
Acts 11:15-17
The HS baptism is said to be the gift.
Acts 10:44-48
Tongues are part of receiving the gift.
In all of the Acts passages above (except for 9:17-18) …
The HS baptism is connected with the Holy Spirit coming upon people.
(This is similar to God's special anointing coming upon His prophets in the OT.)
Acts 2:33-39
The promise was both seen and heard … v.33 (noisy business this HS baptism)
The gift was for those who would repent and be water baptized … v.38
The promise and the gift are said to be the same thing … v.39
.
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ONLY "gift" God offers to us the gift of eternal life in Christ, and he grants to thsoe whom he redeems the Holy Spirit...
ALL saved have those same gifts!
evangelist-7
New Member
Wishful thinking only ... but alas, not Scriptural truth.
I suppose ALL saved get the same gifts in 1 Cor 12.
Know anyone who has any of these gifts?
Your answer: No, they're not for today.
.
I was stating that ALL saved getthe gift eternal life in Christ, and receive the Holy Spirit!
Some of those Gifts have cease that paul adressed, but the Lord still gifts to ALL some type of gift!
evangelist-7
New Member
Sure, and you do realize that there are different types of gifts (you just said so).
gift of grace
gift of faith
gift of salvation
gift of baptism (anointing) with the Holy Spirit
+ many lesser gifts than the 4 above <<< now we'll get 100 more posts!
.