Let’s review some basic Christian understanding

[evangelist-7]

No space for all the Scripture verses, but all of the following is in Scripture.

ALMIGHTY GOD
Revealed Himself as 3 “Persons”: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
These 3 Persons-Manifestations are One God in total and perfect unity of purpose.
Omnipresent (everywhere), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful).
Always has seen the end from the beginning (one day to Him is 1000 of our years).
Always desired to accomplish most of His goals on earth with man’s co-operation.
Provided humans with His inspired Scriptures, which contain great spiritual truths.
Due to His grace and mercy, devised a plan of salvation to save some in all nations.
Sent God the Son to become a human and the Savior of whoever believes in Him.
Elected some humans (for His reasons) for salvation, and gave them all to Jesus.

SATAN
Was Lucifer, God’s #1 arch-angel, before he rebelled and was cast out of Heaven.
Deceived one-third of God’s angels into following him in his rebellion against God.
Earned the right to be “the god-ruler of this world-age”, but God put limits on him.
Is aware of his fate, and the fate of his angels, Hell … and therefore he hates God.
Hates all humans, and desires that they all end up in Hell with him and his angels.
The greatest liar and deceiver in the history of this world … and so, be forewarned.

MAN
Born with an inherited sin nature passed down from the first humans.
Thus, historically burdened with these disastrous conditions …
-- eternally separated from God and Heaven
-- at enmity with God, i.e. an enemy of God
-- a spiritual idiot (proof: all of the very different religions, cults, sects)
-- cannot possibly determine for himself what real spiritual truth is
-- cannot really trust any man for spiritual truth (because of who man is)
-- dependent upon God for enlightenment as to what real spiritual truth is
-- given the Holy Scriptures, which contain all the necessary spiritual truths
Those elected (see above) experience the following …
-- given a seed of faith to be able to believe God’s "foolish" plan of salvation
-- given the Holy Spirit to live inside of them "forever", i.e. until they die
-- guided-taught-convicted by the Holy Spirit to be sanctified unto holiness
-- powerful attacks by Satan against those who are the most spiritually-powerful

Does this belong in the "Other Christian Denominations" sub-forum?
.

 

[OldRegular]

Two quick observations:

God the Son did not become human!

Your remarks about Satan are primarily speculation in my opinion!

 

[evangelist-7]

God the Son did not become human!

I used to think the names/titles "Son of God" and "Jesus Christ" began at the Incarnation,
until I researched it for myself. And what I found was ...
the word (the Logos), the Son of God, the Son of Man ... became human (God in the flesh).

We know for sure … WHO came down from heaven to become Jesus
“In the beginning was the Word (the Logos), and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14)
“… and His (Jesus’) name is called The Word of God.” (Revelation 19:13)

2 Old Testament clues
“I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt,
and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” (Daniel 3:25)
“I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds
of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.” (Daniel 7:13).

We know Jesus called Himself “the Son of Man” many times
“… He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.” (John 3:13)
“What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?” (John 6:62)

“The Son of Man” was in heaven …
BEFORE Jesus’ birth (previous verses), and AFTER His ascension (next verse).

“But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God,
and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened
and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!” (Acts 7:55-56)

John said Jesus (i.e. God) was like the Son of Man
“ ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last’ … Then I turned to see
the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man …” (Revelation 1:10-13)

Jesus said He was both “the Son of God” and “the Son of Man”
“Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, “It is as you said.
Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right
hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:63-64)

Paul said:
“Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens,
Jesus the Son of God …” (Hebrews 4:14)
.

 

[Yeshua1]

Two quick observations:

God the Son did not become human!

Your remarks about Satan are primarily speculation in my opinion!

God the Son, second person of the Godhead, became human flesh and was jesus of Nazarath though, as he was God the Son became Hunman Flesh, Hypostatic Union of the Deity and human natures, forever more one in him, Jesus the God/Man!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Old regular

You posted...

Two quick observations:

God the Son did not become human!

Yes, He did. Mary can verify that.:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Old regular

You posted...

Yes, He did. Mary can verify that.:thumbs:

Please study John 1.
He became "the Son" when he was born.
Before that time he was "God the Word."
Then the "Word" became incarnate, and John beheld him full of grace and glory. Before that time no man had seen God at any time. It was the Word that declared the Father, the only begotten of the Father--now called the Son.

 

[evangelist-7]

Please study John 1.
He became "the Son" when he was born.
Before that time he was "God the Word."

Yes, as I said, I used to believe that (out of ignorance).
In post #3, don't you see that "the Son of God" and "the Son of Man" existed "in the Heavens"
prior to "God the Word" becoming flesh (Jesus)?
.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please study John 1.
He became "the Son" when he was born.
Before that time he was "God the Word."
Then the "Word" became incarnate, and John beheld him full of grace and glory. Before that time no man had seen God at any time. It was the Word that declared the Father, the only begotten of the Father--now called the Son.

the Son was eternally gotten from/of the father!

the Son, also known as the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us!

Jesus is His humanity as the Son of god was physically born, but as to his deity of the Son, that was eternal!

 

[DHK]

the Son was eternally gotten from/of the father!

the Son, also known as the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us!

Jesus is His humanity as the Son of god was physically born, but as to his deity of the Son, that was eternal!

It is only opinion unless you can back it up with Scripture. I don't put much value in opinion.

 

[OldRegular]

It is false, and I believe heretical, doctrine to say that God the Son became human!

Does it make any difference whether we say God the Son became man or that He took on the form of man? In the Incarnation God the Son, the Second Person of the Godhead, laid aside His Glory but not His Divinity. He took upon Himself the nature of man, both body and soul, but He retained all the characteristics of Deity. In the Incarnate Son there is one person but two natures. Jesus Christ was truly God and truly man. The Apostle Paul writes of the divine-human natures of Jesus Christ as follows:

John 1:14
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John Gill writing about John 1:14 states:

“The same word, of whom so many things are said in the preceding verses; and is no other than the Son of God, or second person in the Trinity; for neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost, were made flesh, as is here said of the word, but the Son only: and "flesh" here signifies, not a part of the body, nor the whole body only, but the whole human nature, consisting of a true body, and a reasonable soul; and is so called, to denote the frailty of it, being encompassed with infirmities, though not sinful; and to show, that it was a real human nature, and not a phantom, or appearance, that he assumed:and when he is said to be "made" flesh, this was not done by the change of one nature into another, the divine into the human, or the word into a man; but by the assumption of the human nature, the word, taking it into personal union with himself; whereby the natures are not altered; Christ remained what he was, and became what he was not; nor are they confounded, and blended together, and so make a third nature; nor are they separated, and divided, so as to constitute two persons, a divine person, and an human person; but are so united as to be but one person; and this is such an union, as can never be dissolved, and is the foundation of the virtue and efficacy of all Christ's works and actions, as Mediator:”

Colossians 2:9,
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Hebrews 2:16
16. For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

Hebrews 10:5
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Romans 8:3
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Philippians 2:7
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

There is absolutely nothing in the above Scripture describing the incarnation which states or implies that God the Son became human. This issue was addressed at the Council of Chalcedon as follows:

Chalcedonian Creed (451 A.D.)
This creed was adopted at the Fourth Ecumenical Council, held at Chalcedon, located in what is now Turkey, in 451, as a response to certain heretical views concerning the nature of Christ. It established the orthodox view that Christ has two natures (human and divine) that are unified in one person.

________________________

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

I would call the attention of all those who believe that Mary is the mother of God that Chalcedon simply states: Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood.. Chalcedon states that Mary was the mother of the Human Nature of Jesus Christ, not the mother of the divine nature, not the mother of God.

 

[DHK]

Yes, as I said, I used to believe that (out of ignorance).
In post #3, don't you see that "the Son of God" and "the Son of Man" existed "in the Heavens"
prior to "God the Word" becoming flesh (Jesus)?
.

None of the Scriptures you gave were quoted in any proper context.
First and most important of all Jesus Christ is and always was deity.
Secondly, in his incarnation he became man, and from that time on he was both man and God at the same time.
Third, he was not the Son before the incarnation, He was the Word.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Word became flesh, and at that time he became the Son. He was not eternally the Son, though he was eternally deity. He is the only begotten Son of the Father. Those words have special meanings.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK posted....

First and most important of all Jesus Christ is and always was deity.
Secondly, in his incarnation he became man, and from that time on he was both man and God at the same time.

Absolutly. 100% correct

Jesus Christ did indeed become a man. A human being.

TheGod/Man

 

[OldRegular]

The claim that God became human is false and furthermore is foolish. Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man but the divine did not become human!

Chalcedon says it well: "to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons."

 

[DHK]

The claim that God became human is false and furthermore is foolish. Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man but the divine did not become human!

Chalcedon says it well: "to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons."

Jesus himself said concerning God (the triune Godhead which He always existed as)

God is spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Christ emphasized that God did not have a body. Christ never had a body before his incarnation. The very word "incarnation" means "enfleshment," that is come "in the flesh." Unless your belief has been influenced by the Mormons, you would not believe that God ever existed in the flesh before the birth of Christ.

For, "no man hath seen God at any time."

 

[Alive in Christ]

I believe the term is (spelling train wreck coming).....

((Theanthropos))

It means the God/Man.

Jesus became a man,just like us, while maintaining His full deity the whole time

Praise the Lord

 

[saturneptune]

I totally agree with OR. This thread is a perfect example (post 1) why I am so adamently opposed to creeds and chants. When man writes down what his opinion of the Scrpture is, instead of Scripture, disaster follows. These documents have a way of infecting entire denominations, such as the Apostles Creed. Congregations say it Sunday after Sunday, and it loses its meaning even if it were Biblical. One might as well have one hundred parrots on perches repeating the creed.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This issue was addressed at the Council of Chalcedon as follows:

Chalcedonian Creed (451 A.D.)
This creed was adopted at the Fourth Ecumenical Council, held at Chalcedon, located in what is now Turkey, in 451, as a response to certain heretical views concerning the nature of Christ. It established the orthodox view that Christ has two natures (human and divine) that are unified in one person.

________________________

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

:thumbsup:

I would call the attention of all those who believe that Mary is the mother of God that Chalcedon simply states: Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood..

This is what I have been saying all along!!!!

Chalcedon states that Mary was the mother of the Human Nature of Jesus Christ, not the mother of the divine nature, not the mother of God.

This statement only shows that you believe there is a dichotomy at Jesus Conseption that the cells which will grow into the man Jesus were seperate from Jesus himself within his mothers womb and you will end up believing the Nestorian heresy that DHK has espoused when he said.

He became "the Son" when he was born

as if the Divinity nature of Christ possessed the physical body of Christ at the moment of birth. The fact of the matter is at the moment of his conception both divinity and humanity are present in Jesus Christ which is why Mother of God is used to begin with. As I've said countless times. Not that Mary created the Divinity of Christ or God but that God coming into our realm (time/space) was born of the Virgin Mary (conduit for the incarnation).

 

[12strings]

1. (On whether the 2nd person of the trinity "became human."): It makes no sense to affirm that he was "fully man" and then deny that he "became human". He took on the fullness of humanity, (became human) while retaining all of his deity. What's the problem with that?

2. (On whether the 2nd person of the trinity was "the son" before the incarnation): Hebrews 1:2 - "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."
-This verse says "his son" is the one through whom the world was created...Therefore I hold to the eternal sonship of the son/word/Jesus.

 

[OldRegular]

Jesus himself said concerning God (the triune Godhead which He always existed as)

God is spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Christ emphasized that God did not have a body. Christ never had a body before his incarnation. The very word "incarnation" means "enfleshment," that is come "in the flesh." Unless your belief has been influenced by the Mormons, you would not believe that God ever existed in the flesh before the birth of Christ.

For, "no man hath seen God at any time."

I never said that jesus Christ had a body before the incarnation. And I don't know where you get the idea my belief is influenced by Mormonism. You need to read my posts again!

Two quick observations:

God the Son did not become human!

Your remarks about Satan are primarily speculation in my opinion!

It is false, and I believe heretical, doctrine to say that God the Son became human!

Does it make any difference whether we say God the Son became man or that He took on the form of man? In the Incarnation God the Son, the Second Person of the Godhead, laid aside His Glory but not His Divinity. He took upon Himself the nature of man, both body and soul, but He retained all the characteristics of Deity. In the Incarnate Son there is one person but two natures. Jesus Christ was truly God and truly man. The Apostle Paul writes of the divine-human natures of Jesus Christ as follows:

John 1:14
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John Gill writing about John 1:14 states:

“The same word, of whom so many things are said in the preceding verses; and is no other than the Son of God, or second person in the Trinity; for neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost, were made flesh, as is here said of the word, but the Son only: and "flesh" here signifies, not a part of the body, nor the whole body only, but the whole human nature, consisting of a true body, and a reasonable soul; and is so called, to denote the frailty of it, being encompassed with infirmities, though not sinful; and to show, that it was a real human nature, and not a phantom, or appearance, that he assumed:and when he is said to be "made" flesh, this was not done by the change of one nature into another, the divine into the human, or the word into a man; but by the assumption of the human nature, the word, taking it into personal union with himself; whereby the natures are not altered; Christ remained what he was, and became what he was not; nor are they confounded, and blended together, and so make a third nature; nor are they separated, and divided, so as to constitute two persons, a divine person, and an human person; but are so united as to be but one person; and this is such an union, as can never be dissolved, and is the foundation of the virtue and efficacy of all Christ's works and actions, as Mediator:”

Colossians 2:9,
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Hebrews 2:16
16. For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

Hebrews 10:5
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Romans 8:3
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Philippians 2:7
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

There is absolutely nothing in the above Scripture describing the incarnation which states or implies that God the Son became human. This issue was addressed at the Council of Chalcedon as follows:

Chalcedonian Creed (451 A.D.)
This creed was adopted at the Fourth Ecumenical Council, held at Chalcedon, located in what is now Turkey, in 451, as a response to certain heretical views concerning the nature of Christ. It established the orthodox view that Christ has two natures (human and divine) that are unified in one person.

________________________

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

I would call the attention of all those who believe that Mary is the mother of God that Chalcedon simply states: Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood.. Chalcedon states that Mary was the mother of the Human Nature of Jesus Christ, not the mother of the divine nature, not the mother of God.

The claim that God became human is false and furthermore is foolish. Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man but the divine did not become human!

Chalcedon says it well: "to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons."

If you can show anything in the above posts that is not orthodox Christianity I will repent in sackcloth and ashes!

I am simply saying that the Second Person of the Triune Godhead did not become a human being. John Gill says it as follows: and when he is said to be "made" flesh, this was not done by the change of one nature into another, the divine into the human, or the word into a man; but by the assumption of the human nature.

 

[OldRegular]

1. (On whether the 2nd person of the trinity "became human."): It makes no sense to affirm that he was "fully man" and then deny that he "became human". He took on the fullness of humanity, (became human) while retaining all of his deity. What's the problem with that?

It makes less sense to say that the divine became human. Jesus Christ [one person] was fully God [one nature] and fully human [second nature].

If you are going to insist that the Second Person of the Triune Godhead became human then God the Father and God the Holy Spirit became human because Scripture tells us:

Colossians 2:9,
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.