Thinkingstuff,
God normally verifies that a person has been baptized with the Holy Spirit
by having the person speak some words in an unknown language.
But, who can insist that this is a hard-and-fast rule?
Well several pentecostals have this as a hard fast rule. For instance in the Church of God's doctrinal statements we have this
The speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance as the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
Even in the Assemblies of God we have a similar statement
... The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’
By my reckoning, we have 2 passages after Pentecost that mention tongues:
Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:5-6. Just what do you think these passages are about?
Oh, yes, I forgot … emotionalism.
What did I actually say?
Thinkingstuff said:
That doesn't mean I think people are wrong when they do get excited emotionally about God and what he's doing but I don't think emotional outburst are necissarily the evidence of the Holy Spirit.
And there are actually more verses in the NT that speak on tongues here is one you conveniently forget.
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing. 1 Cor 13:1-3
Having studied with Pentecostals and participated in worship with them I have to say that there are a lot of "clanging cymbals" going on. Not that there aren't those who act in love. But again that was my point to begin with. I think there are many Pentecostals who are given in to emotionalism and confused it with the Holy Spirit. Generally when God moves in our lives in a palpable way we get excited but not always. Those verses in Acts certainly point to the Holy Spirit moving in their lives. But that doesn't mean everyone who acts excited are being moved by the Holy Spirit which I pointed to in my examples. You also forget almost how dismisive Paul is when it comes to the practice of speaking in tongues
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brothers, do not be children in your thinking...Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign[c] not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? - 1Cor 14:18-20;22-23
Tongues for Paul unlike Pentecostal Churches is a low priority and is used as a sign for unbelievers like in Acts where everyone heard their own tongue and witnessed to the mighty things of God.
By "in the church", do you mean evangelists going into all the world
and into all kinds of difficulties, dangers, persecutions, etc. (like I experienced)?
Is that what you mean?
First of all I don't know what "difficulties, dangers, persecutions" you personally experienced. But empowering Christians is building up the church in all aspects of the Church (universally) is what I meant. It applies to evangelist, pastors, workers in charity, teachers. Paul says
26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up - 1 Cor 14:26
and
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[c] and teachers,[d] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ - Eph 4:11-13
That is what I meant.
So, the Holy Spirit is involved in the (false) doctrines of the RCC and the EOC?
Sorry, but you’re credibility has just run all the way down to zero.
Just because 1) you don't actually know what Catholics actually teach. 2) and since you can't claim to have studied Catholicism as closely as I've studied Pentecostalism I doubt that my "credibility is actually in question". Maybe to you since we disagree about doctrine. But think of it this way when I wanted to learn what Pentecostals believed what did I do? I went to a Pentecostal University to learn. I went to the source. I didn't read about them from non Pentecostal perspectives. I found out for myself from their own writers. Their own teachers. Did you take equal steps to learn about your so called "false doctrines of the RCC"? I rather doubt it.
The Holy Spirit “not in the priests and in the people!”
… was referring to those particular priests and members who are NOT born-again.
Well, the actual scripture verse would have a better translation of being born from above and we have those type of people in all Christian denominations. And some who claim to speak in tongues.
Please, after 1950 years, we have a bunch of Charismatic Catholics!
You know we’re not referring to them.
You error is your lack of historical knowledge. There have been Charistmatic Catholics in all the long years of her history. It is only recently that we've titled them charismatics. Think of it this way Pentecostal suggest that during a spirit filled services when people are being prayed over they fall down and its termed "being slain in the spirit". This phenominon happened with Wesleys sermons but it was called swooning. Its a modern term "being slain in the Spirit."
P.S. I get the picture ... you attended a Pentecostal University
... but never received the baptism with the Holy Spirit
... and now you have an axe to grind.
I actually have no axe to grind with Pentecostals. I learned what they believed came to disagree with it. The only real axe I have is those specific Pentecostals who were dealing in nonsense but we have those in all denominations! Let me give you an example. One Church of God Pastor decried education in his sermon down in Lakeland Florida and felt that formal training in the bible limited the Holy Spirit. I suppose he didn't mind trading in erronious understanding of scripture from people who didn't have much more than an 8th grade education. How about a student of theology who when we had a particularly good convocation service in the Student Chapel which said that if this was really a Spirit filled college then they would cancel classes (for which he hadn't completed his assignment) so we could praise God all day by singing praise songs despite the fact that he (or his parents) were paying a lot of money to have him educated so he could be a pastor. Or how about a pastor who preached that he didn't let himself or his family shake hands with people because he didn't want unknown demons to transit unknowingly from a person to himself. Or how about the young Pastor want to be who went forward for the alter prayer and only laid hands on the young pretty women of the crowd. I could go on. But you get my point. However, there are Pentecostals that I respect who really attempt to live their life for God.
VERY FEW people who have not received this baptism believe in it. Just relatives, friends, people God has spoken to about it
I think this is untrue. People believe in it. They just don't agree with you about its import or how it performs in operation.
