Featured Myth of no need of revision

The real difference

You said above....."If you read the historical facts and truth in my responses......." Brother...just because you SAY that the "facts" you present are historical "truth"...does NOT automatically make them SO.

Logos...you and I both have the same right...the right to our opinions...we just differ. THE TRUTH IS.... neither of us can point to any VERSE...IN SCRIPTURE....that clearly "makes the case" for either of our positions. Both of our "positions" are based on subjective opinions that are formed by an adherence to whichever version of the available EXTRA-BIBLICAL manuscript or textual (in whatever language) "evidence" we, as individuals, have chosen to accept. I will readily admit that the position I hold relies heavily on a "supernatural" element of God's providence and sovereignty over the process of the transmission and preservation of His Word down through the ages. It also relies heavily on the application of LOGIC. I'm not moving even 1/1000th of an inch on my position. I doubt you will either.

The scholarship of man is fine...the "scholars" that were associated with the efforts of 1611 were a smart bunch. Many of the scholars that you would have a high regard for that are associated with the CT and the Modern Versions are also very intelligent. That is where the similarities end. The "products" of the works of these different groups are NOT the same and neither are their "fruits". The KJV will continue to endure inspite of the fact that the producers of the MV's probably wish it would simply vanish. Their works will never supercede this dear old Book. God has put His "stamp" of approval on it for over 400 years by the souls,tears and blood of the redeemed.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Amen! :thumbs:

 

Aren't the KJVO folks assigning to the KJV itself the SAME inspiration/inerrancy that are rightfully assigned to JUST the original manuscripts?

And that preservation rightly understood refers to the original language texts we have to use to base KJV/Nasb/Niv etc on?

 

You seem to be under the opinion that reading; -"Be holy, because I am holy." (NIV), or “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (ESV) will necessarily be less holy than a man who reads "Be YE holy; for I am holy." (KJV) Or that a man reading John 3:16 Translated without 1600's idioms will have more trouble accepting Christ?

I think you are wrong on this, though niether of us will likely see the ultimate end...I predict that the KJV will continue to fall out of use among more and more Christians, for the following reasons:

1. Scholars will more and more use something more literal, like the NASB, which does not include 1600 century English idomatic additions such as "God save the King."...when the text says, "LONG LIVE the king."

2. Normal American Christians will set it aside for translations that are written in their language. The KJV English is becoming more and more foreign, and become a barrier to a beginner picking up and reading their bible. A teenager at my church was recently given a modern translation, and he told me how much easier it was to read and understand.

Not trying to be mean, Greg, but that statement has no factual basis. There have been countless salvation, martyrs, counseling through tough times, and spiritual growth using non-KJV translations...The only way your statement is true is if you add that God has put his "stamp" of approval on MANY translations of scripture, since he seems to be using many of them to accomplish his work.

 

My Turn....!

Now...I'm gonna use the same question on you that me and guys who believe as I do usually get "whacked" upside our heads with.......can you PLEASE show me ANY verse of Scripture (and I'll even generously say from ANY Version of your choosing) that supports WHAT YOU JUST ASKED OR SAID???? I think I'll go take a long nap now:laugh:!

Brother...I'm not trying to be disrespectful...I'm just trying to make to you the same point that I made to dear Bro.Logos...you won't find that verse or verses anymore than I could. They don't exist. All our beliefs about these matters are based on a certain amount of "informed" (or not) suppositons. We each assign certain "meanings" to any verses we use to support the beliefs we have about these matters. I do however believe that some of us are RIGHT...and some of us are WRONG. "Things that are different ARE NOT the same. (That's some of that "logic" I was talking about). Have a nice day.:flower:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Ok but....

Bro.12Strings,
An interesting response but I respectfully disagree with each of your suppositions. Thankfully, I believe that God will see to it that among the English-speaking people there will always be at least a remnant who will remain faithful to the use of His Word as revealed in the King James Bible. I know many such people and many of them are far younger than I. God has always dealt with faithful "remnants" and numerical minorities....never majorities. I may not be in BIG company...but I am thankfully in good and faithful company!:thumbsup:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Do you deny that inspiration/inerrancy ONLY applied to the original books themselves?

 

Can You Show....

Can you supply me with a verse of Scripture that CLEARLY teaches THAT position?
I don't think so.

The position that I DO hold to is that the inspiration/inerrancy that OBVIOUSLY would have to be true in reference to the Original Autographs (for THEM to be the Word of God) (even though they no longer exist) has to be PRESERVED in the course of the transmission of the texts down through the ages since the time it was originally penned OR WE DON'T HAVE THE WORD OF GOD IN OUR DAY. Obviously, if you have been paying any attention to anything I have said then you KNOW that I do believe we that WE DO HAVE the Word of God Today! I believe that the integrity of the inspiration and inerrancy of God's Word has been PRESERVED for us (in English) in the text of the King James Bible...period. That's really all I feel I need to say about that.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Mr. Perry:

So far, so good.

Of course not! Different translators make different translations, plain-n-simple.


[/quote]The KJV will continue to endure inspite of the fact that the producers of the MV's probably wish it would simply vanish. [/quote]

I don't think so. The sponsors will produce whatever version makes'em money, be it the KJV or the King George Version.

I don't think they intend to supercede the KJV; they merely wanna pring God's word in TODAY'S English. Sorry, your made-up excuses against perfectly-legitimate modern translations won't fly-you're gluing feathers onto a hippo, hoping it'll take off.

 

Hello Yeshua1

I remember over the years, hearing about this error of saying that the Bible simply “contains” the Word of God. But it wasn’t until I discovered the BB, that I see downfall of this trap.

By saying that... “it is contained in the original language texts”, you are saying that we are dependent upon “scholars”, to tells us what God actually wants to say to us.

This is like the Catholics looking to the pope, to tell them what God’s Word really says.

God’s promise to preserve His Word is to ME, and I only speak English!
(The fact that the Bible was translated into English, does not diminish it’s inspiration.)
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Now I know what is going to be said....“God’s promise did not apply to translations!”
But.....the Bible proves that it does!

Our Lord Jesus Christ, chose to use “a translation”(the LXX), in much of His ministry, while He was here on Earth. Therefore placing His stamp of approval on “translations”!

 

Hello Logos1560

Thanks for all the information about Wycliffe's Bible; (Demonstrating it’s erroneous deletions).

But.....the deletions made in today’s MV’s are not a result of simple mistakes;
By all accounts they appear to be calculated, to deliberately remove references to the Lord’s Deity, etc.

 

Hello again Logos1560

Here are my answers to your 2nd post.
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First you said........

It’s not a “bogus false claim”; Nor am I trying to “win favor” with anybody.
I believe that the “RULES” of the BB, forbid anyone from calling anybody unsaved.
Therefore I am not going to make that declaration about W&H.
In fact, their relationship with the LORD is not an issue.

Just simply do your own study of their character and opinions and come to your own conclusion.
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Next you said.......

I never said anybody accepted the KJV as being perfect.
What I said was.......
“...the King James Version of the Bible, that was universally accepted as God’s Word by all(English speaking) true Believers, at that time.”

Back in 1891, the definition of a “true Believer” was someone who had trusted Christ by believing the Gospel; Thus they had to BELIEVE THE BIBLE.
Back then, every “true believer”, believed the Bible; And back then, almost every English Bible(regardless of it’s name), was just like the KJB. (Maybe not a carbon copy, but close enough). Therefore..........the King James Version of the Bible, was universally accepted as God’s Word by all(English speaking) true Believers, at that time.
Now just as in every generation since the garden of Eden, you can find crackpot egg-heads, who have always rejected the existence of a perfect Bible.
In fact, the translators of the KJB, warned us about them.......
“...So that if, on the one side, we shall be traduced by Popish Persons at home or abroad, who therefore will malign us, because we are poor instruments to make God's holy Truth to be yet more and more known unto the people, whom they desire still to keep in ignorance and darkness; or if, on the other side, we shall be maligned by self-conceited Brethren, who run their own ways, and give liking unto nothing, but what is framed by themselves, and hammered on their anvil;”

There are always going to be some theologians and scholars who will never admit that we have a perfect Bible, because they want to hammer truth out on “their own anvil”!
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Lastly in this post you said.......

What you are forgetting is back then, “the Bible”, was “the Bible”!
All of these so called revisions and reprints, kept the same basic TEXT, that was universally accepted as God’s preserved Word!

It wasn’t until the late 1800's, that the egg-heads got the upper hand and got a foot in the door, by proclaiming(in a believable way), that the autographs(copies of the original texts), would no longer be considered Inspired.

This proclamation changed everything. Now the door was open for “Bible scholars”, to declare themselves the new popes!

 

Hello again Logos1560

As for this post; As I said before, the changes(“errors”), you listed, are very interesting and noteworthy.
But....none appear to be calculated, to detract from the Bible’s supernatural quality.

And this is the entire issue, with the KJB controversy.

 

Wow, do you mean that there were people who disliked the King James Bible, from the very beginning?!?
Boy, I need to rethink my trust in the Bible. Maybe what “everybody” says it true!

Here is something else a famous author once said;
Maybe she’s right too?.......
“In her best-selling book, Out on a Limb, Shirley MacLaine recounts how a friend once said to her: "You know that nothing is recorded in the Bible about Christ from the time he was about twelve until he began to really teach at about thirty years old. Right?" "Yes," MacLaine replied, "I had heard about that and I just figured he didn't have much to say until he got older." "Well, no," her friend responded, "a lot of people think that those eighteen missing years were spent traveling in and around India and Tibet and Persia and the Near East. They say he became an adept yogi and mastered complete control over his body and the physical world around him[he] tried to teach people that they could do the same things too if they got more in touch with their spiritual selves and their own potential power."
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I have never said that W&H were the first ones to attack the KJB.

The foolishness of the above paragraph, demonstrates how I view “man’s opinion” of God’s Holy Word......
“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar........
(Romans 3:4a)

I love honest & Godly theologians and scholars; But the only reliable way I have of determining their honesty or Godliness, is by what they say “about the Bible”!

A friend loaned me a book once and said the it was good.
Within the first few paragraphs, the author talked about Genesis 32:24-ff and Jacob’s encounter with the preincarnate Christ, and informed me that it was all just a “story” made up by the Jews.....

I didn’t need to read another word.
In fact, the Lord told me not to.........
“Cease, my son, to hear the instruction [that causeth] to err from the words of knowledge.”
(Proverbs 19:27)

 

To This I say....

AMEN to the whole post...but particularly the underlined portions! And even more particularly that last verse! SL...thanks for having the patience to aswer these long posts by Logos. They really kinda make me dizzy trying to read through them.:smilewinkgrin:
You win the brownie points this time!:tongue3:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

So you have addressed the that we both see different futures for the KJV, but what about:

1. Does reading 16th century idioms make one more holy...ie, bear better "fruit." And if so, How?

2. Were the KJV translators right to alter the text to say "God save the King." (a common phrase in England back then) when it really says "Long live the King."? That seems like an obvious bowing to cultural norms, which is exactly what the MV's get accused of doing.

3. Do you know for a fact that there have been more salvations and martyrs and missionaries in say, the last 60 years, using the KJV as opposed to more modern English translations?

 

Hi Rob

You said....

So you don’t believe that the King James Version, is God’s Word.
(That is a shame.)
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I have never claimed to be a scholar; But God’s Word doesn’t give us any of these 7 “basic principles” you listed, as being needed or even important.

The ONLY THING a Bible student needs to FULLY UNDERSTAND God’s Word is the Holy Spirit.......
“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” (1 John 2:27)