That verse says nothing about selecting only a few. In fact it makes it clear it is much more than that.
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God's Soveriegnty
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
That verse says nothing about selecting only a few. In fact it makes it clear it is much more than that.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
I disagree, as Scripture states otherwise...
"Behold! the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29)
"And the bread that I shall give is my flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." (John 6:51)
(And while we're in John's Gospel, let's not forget John 3:16)
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)
"who gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:6)
"who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (1 Tim 4:10)
"But we see Jesus...that He by the grace of God might taste death for everyone" (Heb 2:9)
Of course, there is plenty more, and there is nothing in the context of any of these verses that restrict the "world", "all men" or "everyone" to mean "only the elect". And the Calvinists err by: (1) reading such a restriction INTO those texts, and by (2) concluding that the passages which speak of Christ dying for His Church, sheep, etc, necessarily imply that He died ONLY for His elect (but of course the word "only" isn't found in such passages).
One might as well conclude, based on that "logic", that Christ only died for PAUL since Paul stated that Christ loved HIM and gave Himself for HIM (see GAL 2:20--no mention of Christ loving, or giving Himself, for the "world", or the "elect" or the sheep in THAT verse, just Paul :smilewinkgrin: ).
So, yeah, it's true that Christ died for His sheep in a special sense, in that His Church actually enjoys the benefits of His atonement by grace through faith, but this in no way rules out the truth (stated the passages quoted above) that Christ made atonement provisionally on the cross for the whole world (in fact, 1 Tim 4:10 teaches both)
Yep.
True, God determines the ones to whom He'll show mercy. But this doesn't rule out that there are sovereignly ordained and divinely enabled conditions man must meet to be saved--Scripture is abundantly clear that faith/repentence are necessary. God enables us to repent and believe, but He doesn't "repent and believe" for us.
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him, and to our God and He will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:7)
(Hmmm...here God states He will show mercy on those who repent--looks like what we have here is a sovereignly determined condition that man must meet in order to receive mercy)
It is pretty tough when you have to deny the clear and plain teaching in scripture ie "the world".
Not really, for if we take into account the context/intent of the various passages, it becomes clear that Jesus death was a payment for the sins of all those the father granted unto Him to get saved, IE The Elect!
Yes the "World" of the Elect ..... not all. If it was for all then all human kind would obviously be saved. This is what I am asking you to explain but your not doing it. Again, if the whole world is offered salvation & God is the almighty Creator of the entire world, indeed the entire universe, then why isnt every human being on the face of the earth saved? but lets go further.... you probably believe in universal atonement dont you? You believe that the efficacy & power of Christs atonement saves all right? Isnt that what your ultimately saying?
It must be tough believing in a theology that is not exclusively God centered but is distorted in the direction of self. But of course this is what the spirit of the age demands. People are looking for religious experiences that are secularized, humanized & relativized....LOL! So you supply exactly what they want today, a gospel that preserves a determinative role for personal choice.
I for one prefer not to veer in that direction. Thanks but NO thanks.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
You seemed to have ignored the comments I made in my last post and were just content to respond with a bald assertion (an assertion, I actually answered in my comments). In otherwords, you've added 'of the elect' to John 3:16 (and similar passages) without any contextual/grammatical/lexical warrant other than your Calvinist presuppositions.
Non-sequitur. The Atonement is provisional (even for the elect) and is received on condition of faith. This is abundantly clear from Scripture. In other words, the Atonement doesn't automatically save anyone in and of itself--it must be appropriated (even by the elect). Otherwise, folks would be born automatically saved irrespective of faith--even the elect. I don't think you want to assert that, do you?
Just did, and I did so already
Because many are impenitent (despite the goodness of God leading them to repentance--Rom 2:4-5) and refuse to believe (John 3:18, 3:36 etc)...it's not that complicated.
I answered that above. The Atonement is provisional conditioned on faith and repentance. It is applied through faith:
"...whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood THROUGH FAITH..." Romans 3:25
For those who don't receive Christ, God's wrath abides on them still (John 3:36). Yet, we were all (elect included) enemies of God (Rom 5:10) and by nature children of wrath before coming to Christ (Eph 2:3)--even those of us born after the Atonement was made. So you see? God's wrath abides on the elect until they are actually IN CHRIST and reconciled to God.
You still haven't answered the fact that in Jeremiah 18:1-11, God clearly proclaims He takes creaturely contingency into consideration in exercising His sovereign judgments.
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Has nothing to do with self. Another clear misrepresentation.
No where in John 3:16 does it say the world of the elect. That is eisegetical at best.
Did the death of Christ make a definite salvation for those intended for it, the Elect of God, or else made a potential salvation for "whosoever wills?"
Are their sinners in hell there even though Jesus paid their full sin debt to the father on the Cross?
What I have noticed is that Calvinists frame questions in order to get the response they want. It is a debate tactic and less than genuine. It is like asking "did you stop beating your wife?"
Are the answers that hard to give?
Your questions are based on your own eisegetical premise not scripture. When the premise is flawed the questions cannot be answered.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Does God desire that all men be saved or not? 1 Tim 2:4. Is the death of Jesus Christ efficacious to those who reject him? Hebrews 3:19 - 4:11
Though sinners in hell before going to hell could have accessed salvation they rejected it and are now in hell.
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can you answer if you hold that the death of jesus was "merely" provodingatonement for our sins, still up to us to place faith in him?
that htere is a real chance none could have gotten saved, all could have freely rejected Him?
Jesus said He came into the world to do the will of His Father, and that will was that He should save all who were given Him (the elect) even before the world began (John 6: 37-39). Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins, and He did it (Matt. 1: 21; Rom. 8: 33, 34). He died for His sheep, not for goats (John 10: 15). He died for sons, for the sanctified, for the brethren, for the church, and for the children (Heb. 2: 9-15). He saw the travail of His soul and was satisfied (Isa. 53: 10-12).
that makes much more biblical sense then seeing it as being that God desires equally ALL sinners to be saved, sent Jesus to die for All, but still not sure how many would accept his offer to sdave? That death of jesus might be in vain to get all sinners saved, as God desired his death to accomplish?
Yeshua, as my dear friend & brother "PinoyBaptist" said & Kentucky Redneck (uses as a signature piece) .......
"...in terms of eternal salvation the only ingredients were Christ's obedience, the Father's will, and the Triune God's mercy and grace..." pinoybaptist [Amen pinoy!]