Many

[HisWitness]

Roman's 5-19

For as by ONE man's disobedience MANY were made SINNERS,so by the obedience of ONE shall MANY be made RIGHTEOUS.

Its very evident that Adam disobeyed God and all of mankind were made sinners(notice the declaration of a past tense event)through Adam.
Did they do anything to deserve it?? Nope it was because of Adam's sin.

Now comes the hard part--Theres another 1 man(Christ the Lord)and his obedience to God that would make MANY RIGHTEOUS(notice the declaration of a future tense event still to come--by this i mean future to them in their time not ours)Now did it say anything about the MANY doing anything to deserve or earn that RIGHTEOUSNESS?? Nope it was Christ's obedience.

the MANY in both instances are the SAME grp of PEOPLE-ALL MANKIND.

The latter instance was future tense for those people--so there was still something that must take place (in their lifetime)for it to become a past tense event for them--then it could be said that MANY were MADE RIGHTEOUS and not just shall be made.

So just a few thoughts to get started with

 

[Bronconagurski]

Roman's 5-19

For as by ONE man's disobedience MANY were made SINNERS,so by the obedience of ONE shall MANY be made RIGHTEOUS.

Its very evident that Adam disobeyed God and all of mankind were made sinners(notice the declaration of a past tense event)through Adam.
Did they do anything to deserve it?? Nope it was because of Adam's sin.

Now comes the hard part--Theres another 1 man(Christ the Lord)and his obedience to God that would make MANY RIGHTEOUS(notice the declaration of a future tense event still to come--by this i mean future to them in their time not ours)Now did it say anything about the MANY doing anything to deserve or earn that RIGHTEOUSNESS?? Nope it was Christ's obedience.

the MANY in both instances are the SAME grp of PEOPLE-ALL MANKIND.

The latter instance was future tense for those people--so there was still something that must take place (in their lifetime)for it to become a past tense event for them--then it could be said that MANY were MADE RIGHTEOUS and not just shall be made.

So just a few thoughts to get started with

This week was next week last week. Is there a serious question in here anywhere? Or are you trolling again?

 

[HisWitness]

This week was next week last week. Is there a serious question in here anywhere? Or are you trolling again?

Trolling?? be careful with your anger brother unless you kill me and commit murder

that wasnt a answer or a rightful comment on this post--seems to me that you are afraid to comment and look at this subject friend

 

[Herald]

Hiswitness,

Are you asking a question in your OP or just making a statement?

 

[HisWitness]

Hiswitness,

Are you asking a question in your OP or just making a statement?

Hello Friend

Im making statements and asking questions so feel free to give your thoughts on the texts wrote and anything on your mind for that matter

 

[Bronconagurski]

Trolling?? be careful with your anger brother unless you kill me and commit murder

that wasnt a answer or a rightful comment on this post--seems to me that you are afraid to comment and look at this subject friend

Oh, but I wasn't angry. Be careful with your false judgement or you may be judged. I was only half kidding as your diatribes seem a little off, no offense. Look, the past tense was used for mankind as sinners as all are born in sin. Now not everyone had been born at that time, but the past tense was used because it's a done deal that all are born sinners. The future tense was used because many more people would be saved in the future. There was no act that had to happen except the salvation of future sinners by God. That is elementary.

 

[HisWitness]

Oh, but I wasn't angry. Be careful with your false judgement or you may be judged. I was only half kidding as your diatribes seem a little off, no offense. Look, the past tense was used for mankind as sinners as all are born in sin. Now not everyone had been born at that time, but the past tense was used because it's a done deal that all are born sinners. The future tense was used because many more people would be saved in the future. There was no act that had to happen except the salvation of future sinners by God. That is elementary.

Hello there

So are you saying that alot more will be saved--a few more--some or how many ?

and if the disobedience of adam made it a done deal for all--would not the obedience of Christ make it a done deal for all ?

 

[Bronconagurski]

Hello there

So are you saying that alot more will be saved--a few more--some or how many ?

and if the disobedience of adam made it a done deal for all--would not the obedience of Christ make it a done deal for all ?

No, you have to thing here. All have been made sinners, but all will not be saved. That's a rather ludicrous question to ask me how many more will be saved as I am not God. Want me to guess? Or are you one of the 144.000? Now think on those thoughts for awhile before you post.

 

[HisWitness]

No, you have to thing here. All have been made sinners, but all will not be saved. That's a rather ludicrous question to ask me how many more will be saved as I am not God. Want me to guess? Or are you one of the 144.000? Now think on those thoughts for awhile before you post.

well friend the MANY in each of the 1 man events is the same group of people.

so if you say all were made sinners--the proper meaning would be all will be made Righteous.

Now if you say Many doesnt mean ALL--then you have not all of mankind being made sinners?

its one of the 2 meanings there friend

I think Roman's 11-32 is a great verse::For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief,that he might have mercy upon ALL.

And in like fashion he hath concluded ALL mankind would be made sinners through the disobedience of 1 MAN.(Adam).

WHY ?

So that he could have mercy upon ALL mankind through the obedience of 1 MAN(Christ).

I think its very evident thats this is the proper meaning no matter how much it goes against tradition

 

[Bronconagurski]

well friend the MANY in each of the 1 man events is the same group of people.

so if you say all were made sinners--the proper meaning would be all will be made Righteous.

Now if you say Many doesnt mean ALL--then you have not all of mankind being made sinners?

its one of the 2 meanings there friend

I think Roman's 11-32 is a great verse::For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief,that he might have mercy upon ALL.

And in like fashion he hath concluded ALL mankind would be made sinners through the disobedience of 1 MAN.(Adam).

WHY ?

So that he could have mercy upon ALL mankind through the obedience of 1 MAN(Christ).

I think its very evident thats this is the proper meaning no matter how much it goes against tradition

Let's cut to the chase, pal, so we don't have to endure anymore of your distortions. You believe in universal salvation for all. Just come out and say it, man, sheesh. It's a lie out of hell.

 

[HisWitness]

Let's cut to the chase, pal, so we don't have to endure anymore of your distortions. You believe in universal salvation for all. Just come out and say it, man, sheesh. It's a lie out of hell.

There you go with the anger boiling up again

Im just having a conversation on the scripture and instead of answering the last post because you have no answer for it you start in on sluring again

Friend look at scripture and no matter what the truth is about it or what term it might fall under--its far better to accept truth than a lie

This is why people dont accept truth,because their afraid it might put them in a category which they dont like the word that describes it.

Let Truth be Truth no matter where it falls under

 

[Bronconagurski]

There you go with the anger boiling up again

Im just having a conversation on the scripture and instead of answering the last post because you have no answer for it you start in on sluring again

Friend look at scripture and no matter what the truth is about it or what term it might fall under--its far better to accept truth than a lie

This is why people dont accept truth,because their afraid it might put them in a category which they dont like the word that describes it.

Let Truth be Truth no matter where it falls under

Yes it is anger this time but not at you, but your false doctrine you are spreading around here like a farmer with a manure spreader. Your false doctrine may lead people to hell and if you meet them there, I'll bet they don't call you friend. Your, sir, are a false teacher and a heretic. That is not anger, it's a fact. You don't have enough guts to come and say what you believe but try to lure people in with distortions, half truths and outright lies. You will have a lot to answer for , sir, if you don't get right with God.

 

[HisWitness]

Matthew 18-11--

For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was LOST.

to save THAT which was lost(didnt say those or them or some--it said to save THAT which was lost)

verse 12 speaks of leaving the 99 sheep that were Righteous and going after the one that was LOST(if 50 were lost he would have went and brought back 50--if 88 was lost he would have went and brought back 88)

Notice again he said THAT which was lost(all of them no matter how many it was)

So WHAT was LOST ? all mankind was lost through adam's disobedience.

Christ came to reverse the effects of the first man's disobedience by offering his obedience unto the father.

So THAT which was lost in Adam was regained through Christ(all mankind)

Final note--Jesus came to save THAT which was lost no matter how many it was(all of humanity) and he did do just what he said!!!

 

[HisWitness]

Yes it is anger this time but not at you, but your false doctrine you are spreading around here like a farmer with a manure spreader. Your false doctrine may lead people to hell and if you meet them there, I'll bet they don't call you friend. Your, sir, are a false teacher and a heretic. That is not anger, it's a fact. You don't have enough guts to come and say what you believe but try to lure people in with distortions, half truths and outright lies. You will have a lot to answer for , sir, if you don't get right with God.

I have given you all scripture--you have given me none--all you know how to do is blurt out accusations and slur people without cause friend

i know the truth is hard for you--it was for me at one time also--brother may
the Light of the Lord shine upon you

 

[Bronconagurski]

Matthew 18-11--

For the Son of man is come to SAVE that wgich was LOST.

to save THAT which was lost(didnt say those or them or some--it said to save THAT which was lost)

verse 12 speaks of leaving the 99 sheep that were Righteous and going after the one that was LOST(if 50 were lost he would have went and brought back 50--if 88 was lost he would have went and brought back 88)

Notice again he said THAT which was lost(all of them no matter how many it was)

So WHAT was LOST ? all mankind was lost through adam's disobedience.

Christ came to reverse the effects of the first man's disobedience by offering his obedience unto the father.

So THAT which was lost in Adam was regained through Christ(all mankind)

Final note--Jesus came to save THAT which was lost no matter how many it was(all of humanity) and he did do just what he said!!!

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus refutes the last two ops of yours with these verses and makes you a liar. And we know all liars end up in hell. Get right, sir, before it is too late and this ends up being your fate:

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[HisWitness]

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus refutes the last two ops of yours with these verses and makes you a liar. And we know all liars end up in hell. Get right, sir, before it is too late and this ends up being your fate:

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

AMEN!! all those scriptures are right!!!

But the ones i gave unto you also are right--so lets try and rightly divide all of them now to get a complete picture shall we ?

 

[HisWitness]

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus refutes the last two ops of yours with these verses and makes you a liar. And we know all liars end up in hell. Get right, sir, before it is too late and this ends up being your fate:

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

question for you brother--are you what they call a Futurist(Lord is still yet to come back) or Preterist(Lord has fulfilled all things)

 

[Winman]

We are not made righteous unconditionally, we must BELIEVE to be imputed righteous.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

We must conditionally believe on Jesus to be imputed righteous. Likewise, we must conditionally sin to be imputed sin.

This is where folks err in Romans 5. they unconditionally impute sin to men because of Adam, but conditionally impute righteousness to us when we believe.

That is not the form Paul is using in these verses, you must subject each half of each verse to the same EXACT conditions.

We are made sinners when we follow in Adam's example and sin. Adam introduced judgment and condemnation through sin.

We are made righteous when we follow in Jesus's example and trust in God as Jesus did when he died on the cross and trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. Jesus introduced righteousness and justification through faith.

 

[HisWitness]

We are not made righteous unconditionally, we must BELIEVE to be imputed righteous.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

We must conditionally believe on Jesus to be imputed righteous. Likewise, we must conditionally sin to be imputed sin.

This is where folks err in Romans 5. they unconditionally impute sin to men because of Adam, but conditionally impute righteousness to us when we believe.

That is not the form Paul is using in these verses, you must subject each half of each verse to the same EXACT conditions.

We are made sinners when we follow in Adam's example and sin. Adam introduced judgment and condemnation through sin.

We are made righteous when we follow in Jesus's example and trust in God as Jesus did when he died on the cross and trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. Jesus introduced righteousness and justification through faith.

So you say the MANY in both 1 man event's are not the same group of people ?

 

[Winman]

So you say the MANY in both 1 man event's are not the same group of people ?

You will not understand me here, but who the "many" are is CONDITIONAL.

The "many" who are made sinners are those who conditionally follow Adam's example and sin. Adam introduced death, judgment, and condemnation through sin.

The "many" who are made righteous are those who conditionally follow Jesus's example and trust God as Jesus trusted God. Jesus introduced life, justification, and righteousness through faith.

It is like saying that many were made communists by Karl Marx. Karl Marx's thoughts and beliefs are not imputed to any man, but any man who follows his example and believes what he believed will become a communist.

But you can't impute sin unconditionally to all men, and then conditionally impute justification through faith to some men. You are not treating both halves of each verse equally, which is the form of argument Paul was using.