Many

[HisWitness]

You will not understand me here, but who the "many" are is CONDITIONAL.

The "many" who are made sinners are those who conditionally follow Adam's example and sin. Adam introduced death, judgment, and condemnation through sin.

The "many" who are made righteous are those who conditionally follow Jesus's example and trust God as Jesus trusted God. Jesus introduced life, justification, and righteousness through faith.

It is like saying that many were made communists by Karl Marx. Karl Marx's thoughts and beliefs are not imputed to any man, but any man who follows his example and believes what he believed will become a communist.

But you can't impute sin unconditionally to all men, and then conditionally impute justification through faith to some men. You are not treating both halves of each verse equally, which is the form of argument Paul was using.

from adam to moses the people did NOT sin after the manner of adam(they had no law--where thereis no law sin is not imputed)but yet they were still sinners because they were made sinners through adam--its hard for thee to kick against the truth when it plainly states that

 

[HisWitness]

You will not understand me here, but who the "many" are is CONDITIONAL.

The "many" who are made sinners are those who conditionally follow Adam's example and sin. Adam introduced death, judgment, and condemnation through sin.

The "many" who are made righteous are those who conditionally follow Jesus's example and trust God as Jesus trusted God. Jesus introduced life, justification, and righteousness through faith.

It is like saying that many were made communists by Karl Marx. Karl Marx's thoughts and beliefs are not imputed to any man, but any man who follows his example and believes what he believed will become a communist.

But you can't impute sin unconditionally to all men, and then conditionally impute justification through faith to some men. You are not treating both halves of each verse equally, which is the form of argument Paul was using.

Romans 3-9
says that both jews and gentiles are ALL under SIN(sinners)
verse 10-As it is written,There is NONE righteous,NO,NOT ONE

keep on reading after that and it tells the same thing.

also maybe you have it bacwards friend--God did conclude ALL under SIN that he might have mercy upon ALL

God concluded ALL to be made SINNERS through Adam that he might conclude ALL to be made RIGHTEOUS through Christ

I think this is the proper meaning here of this text

 

[Winman]

from adam to moses the people did NOT sin after the manner of adam(they had no law--where thereis no law sin is not imputed)but yet they were still sinners because they were made sinners through adam--its hard for thee to kick against the truth when it plainly states that

No, Paul had already explained how men without the law become sinners in chapter 2.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Notice Paul says FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED without the law shall perish without the law. They do not perish because of Adam, they perish because they have sinned.

But you are correct, without law sin is not imputed (and this is why babies and little children are not sinners, because they cannot understand law). But Paul explains that all men have the law written on their hearts and are a law unto themselves. This is why men from Adam to Moses died, because they violated the law written on their hearts and conscience.

Notice that Paul does not mention Adam whatsoever here.

Now go back to Romans 5, is Paul speaking of ALL MEN in Romans 5:13-14?

NO, he is speaking only of men from Adam to Moses. So even if you argue that Paul is saying Adam made men sinners, it would only apply to men from Adam to Moses, not all men.

But that is not what Paul is saying, in fact he is saying that men from Adam to Moses DID NOT SIN LIKE ADAM. Now, if Adam's sin was imputed to them as you believe, they would be guilty of sinning EXACTLY LIKE ADAM.

You have fallen for Augustine's error.

 

[HisWitness]

No, Paul had already explained how men without the law become sinners in chapter 2.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Notice Paul says FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED without the law shall perish without the law. They do not perish because of Adam, they perish because they have sinned.

But you are correct, without law sin is not imputed. But Paul explains that all men have the law written on their hearts and are a law unto themselves. This is why men from Adam to Moses died, because they violated the law written on their hearts and conscience.

Notice that Paul does not mention Adam whatsoever here.

Now go back to Romans 5, is Paul speaking of ALL MEN in Romans 5:13-14?

NO, he is speaking only of men from Adam to Moses. So even if you argue that Paul is saying Adam made men sinners, it would only apply to men from Adam to Moses, not all men.

But that is not what Paul is saying, in fact he is saying that men from Adam to Moses DID NOT SIN LIKE ADAM. Now, if Adam's sin was imputed to them as you believe, they would be guilty of sinning EXACTLY LIKE ADAM.

You have fallen for Augustine's error.

i never said sin was imputed to them that was from adam to moses--i said they were sinners because of adam--although where no law was they could not be held accountable for their sins--but they were sinners-and they died the death that adam did--just because there is no law doesnt make people good--it just means there is no judgement on them for their sins

 

[Winman]

i never said sin was imputed to them that was from adam to moses--i said they were sinners because of adam--although where no law was they could not be held accountable for their sins--but they were sinners-and they died the death that adam did--just because there is no law doesnt make people good--it just means there is no judgement on them for their sins

No, they were sinners because they violated the law written on their hearts and conscience. Read the scriptures from Adam to Moses and you will see that men knew what sin was, even though there was no written law.

Romans 2 tells us that men PERISHED without the law, not because of Adam, but because they have sinned.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Paul didn't say these persons shall die because of Adam, he said they shall perish because they have sinned.

It is difficult to shake Augustine's error, but that is what it is.

 

[HisWitness]

No, Paul had already explained how men without the law become sinners in chapter 2.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Notice Paul says FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED without the law shall perish without the law. They do not perish because of Adam, they perish because they have sinned.

But you are correct, without law sin is not imputed (and this is why babies and little children are not sinners, because they cannot understand law). But Paul explains that all men have the law written on their hearts and are a law unto themselves. This is why men from Adam to Moses died, because they violated the law written on their hearts and conscience.

Notice that Paul does not mention Adam whatsoever here.

Now go back to Romans 5, is Paul speaking of ALL MEN in Romans 5:13-14?

NO, he is speaking only of men from Adam to Moses. So even if you argue that Paul is saying Adam made men sinners, it would only apply to men from Adam to Moses, not all men.

But that is not what Paul is saying, in fact he is saying that men from Adam to Moses DID NOT SIN LIKE ADAM. Now, if Adam's sin was imputed to them as you believe, they would be guilty of sinning EXACTLY LIKE ADAM.

You have fallen for Augustine's error.

sorry friend i disagree with you--through the disobedience of adam all were made sinners--through the obedience of Christ were all to be made righteous

i believe ill stick with the scriptures on this one

 

[HisWitness]

No, Paul had already explained how men without the law become sinners in chapter 2.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Notice Paul says FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED without the law shall perish without the law. They do not perish because of Adam, they perish because they have sinned.

But you are correct, without law sin is not imputed (and this is why babies and little children are not sinners, because they cannot understand law). But Paul explains that all men have the law written on their hearts and are a law unto themselves. This is why men from Adam to Moses died, because they violated the law written on their hearts and conscience.

Notice that Paul does not mention Adam whatsoever here.

Now go back to Romans 5, is Paul speaking of ALL MEN in Romans 5:13-14?

NO, he is speaking only of men from Adam to Moses. So even if you argue that Paul is saying Adam made men sinners, it would only apply to men from Adam to Moses, not all men.

But that is not what Paul is saying, in fact he is saying that men from Adam to Moses DID NOT SIN LIKE ADAM. Now, if Adam's sin was imputed to them as you believe, they would be guilty of sinning EXACTLY LIKE ADAM.

You have fallen for Augustine's error.

if i understand correctly what you are trying to say--you are leading into man's works and not into the Grace of God--its by Grace and not of works lest any man should boast

 

[Winman]

sorry friend i disagree with you--through the disobedience of adam all were made sinners--through the obedience of Christ were all to be made righteous

i believe ill stick with the scriptures on this one

Adam introduced death, judgment, and condemnation through sin. He was the leader. If you follow his example and sin, you also will come under judgment, be condemned, and spiritually die.

Jesus introduced life, justification, and righteousness through faith. If you believe like Jesus you will be imputed righteous.

God himself said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God said the soul that sins shall die, and that the son shall not bear his father's iniquity.

Do you believe this scripture?

 

[HisWitness]

Adam introduced death, judgment, and condemnation through sin. He was the leader. If you follow his example and sin, you also will come under judgment, be condemned, and spiritually die.

Jesus introduced life, justification, and righteousness through faith. If you believe like Jesus you will be imputed righteous.

God himself said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God said the soul that sins shall die, and that the son shall not bear his father's iniquity.

Do you believe this scripture?

Sure do believe them--they said MANY were MADE SINNERS through ADAM.

Because adam sinned he not only became a sinnerbut he MADE all of mankind SINNERS and therefore people are not SINNERS because they SIN--they SIN because they are SINNERS.

and its true children didnt bear their eartly father iniquity--this has nothing to do with them being a sinner at birth because of ADAM.

I do believe ill stick with the scriptures on this one

 

[Winman]

Sure do believe them--they said MANY were MADE SINNERS through ADAM.

Because adam sinned he not only became a sinnerbut he MADE all of mankind SINNERS and therefore people are not SINNERS because they SIN--they SIN because they are SINNERS.

and its true children didnt bear their eartly father iniquity--this has nothing to do with them being a sinner at birth because of ADAM.

I do believe ill stick with the scriptures on this one

Sin is something you DO, not something you are. Adam and Eve were not sinners until they sinned, then they were sinners.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

God does not judge us for what we are, but for what we do.

Let me ask you a question, was Jesus a son of Adam?

 

[HisWitness]

Sin is something you DO, not something you are. Adam and Eve were not sinners until they sinned, then they were sinners.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

God does not judge us for what we are, but for what we do.

Let me ask you a question, was Jesus a son of Adam?

So tell me something how does someone be saved ?

 

[Winman]

So tell me something how does someone be saved ?

A person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Now answer my question, was Jesus a son of Adam?

 

[HisWitness]

A person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Now answer my question, was Jesus a son of Adam?

how does trusting jesus as your saviour come about ?

 

[HisWitness]

A person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Now answer my question, was Jesus a son of Adam?

No Jesus was not a son of adam--he was Son of God

 

[Iconoclast]

Roman's 5-19

For as by ONE man's disobedience MANY were made SINNERS,so by the obedience of ONE shall MANY be made RIGHTEOUS.

Its very evident that Adam disobeyed God and all of mankind were made sinners(notice the declaration of a past tense event)through Adam.
Did they do anything to deserve it?? Nope it was because of Adam's sin.

Now comes the hard part--Theres another 1 man(Christ the Lord)and his obedience to God that would make MANY RIGHTEOUS(notice the declaration of a future tense event still to come--by this i mean future to them in their time not ours)Now did it say anything about the MANY doing anything to deserve or earn that RIGHTEOUSNESS?? Nope it was Christ's obedience.

the MANY in both instances are the SAME grp of PEOPLE-ALL MANKIND.

The latter instance was future tense for those people--so there was still something that must take place (in their lifetime)for it to become a past tense event for them--then it could be said that MANY were MADE RIGHTEOUS and not just shall be made.

So just a few thoughts to get started with

The apostle paul who wrote this explains it further in 1 cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All men are born in Adam .....by physical birth..and yet are spiritually dead.

Only those in Christ by Spiritual birth....are made alive....

all men are physically born in adam....but only the elect are spiritually born In Christ.

all men are in Adam, not all men are in Christ.

 

[Winman]

No Jesus was not a son of adam--he was Son of God

Jesus was the son of Adam, the scriptures prove it.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and David was a son of Adam according to the flesh. So if you believe sin is inherited from Adam through the flesh, Jesus would be born with a sin nature.

Do you believe Jesus had a sin nature? I don't.

This is the problem with folks who believe the superstition that the sin nature is inherited from our father, they don't know the scriptures.

 

[Winman]

The apostle paul who wrote this explains it further in 1 cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All men are born in Adam .....by physical birth..and yet are spiritually dead.

Only those in Christ by Spiritual birth....are made alive....

all men are physically born in adam....but only the elect are spiritually born In Christ.

all men are in Adam, not all men are in Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:22 is the ONLY verse in all the Bible that says "in Adam" and says in Adam all DIE (FUTURE TENSE). You must be alive to die, so this actually refutes that we are born dead in sin.

Besides that, this verse is speaking of physical death only, the whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 concerns the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death.

You need to quit listening to error.

 

[Amy.G]

Jesus was the son of Adam, the scriptures prove it.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and David was a son of Adam according to the flesh. So if you believe sin is inherited from Adam through the flesh, Jesus would be born with a sin nature.

Do you believe Jesus had a sin nature? I don't.

This is the problem with folks who believe the superstition that the sin nature is inherited from our father, they don't know the scriptures.

Jesus was not from the seed of Adam, but the seed of Mary. Mary was a direct descendant of David. Joseph did not impregnate Mary.

 

[Herald]

Jesus was not from the seed of Adam, but the seed of Mary. Mary was a direct descendant of David. Joseph did not impregnate Mary.

Correct.

[18]*Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

(Matthew 1:18 ESV) (emphasis mine)

Jesus was the son of David in that He was born into the house of Joseph, and Joseph was a physical descendant of David. Jesus is not physically a descendant of David, just as He is not physically a descendant of Joseph. Had Jesus been conceived by Joseph, He would have been born in a state of sin.

 

[Winman]

Jesus was not from the seed of Adam, but the seed of Mary. Mary was a direct descendant of David. Joseph did not impregnate Mary.

Rom 1:3 shows that the seed of the man is passed through the mother. Jesus received the seed of David through Mary, thus Jesus also received the seed of Adam.

If Jesus was the seed of David through Mary, then Jesus was the seed of all of Mary's fathers going all the way back to Adam.

You can't get around it.