Alters and Prayers

[Revmitchell]

With regards to salvation neither alters or prayers are the problem. People really need to think things through instead of just trying to search for the next thing to be against.


How the gospel is presented is the problem. The message presentation and just what salvation is tied to. If you got rid of sinners prayers and alters there would still be failures in gospel presentations and you would then have to search for something new to be against.

 

[Revmitchell]

The way I have always viewed it is that in the OT, an altar was a place of sacrifice. In most Baptist churches, it is a place where a person sacrifices his own will to be in obedience to God, hence an apt metaphor.

A very good understanding and I agree.

 

[Revmitchell]

God gave specific instuctions on how the altars under the law were to be built. The altars of today in no way resemble the old testiment altars. If the churches that practice altar worship are going to bring themselves back under the law, they could at least put horns on the corners. LOL

A very sophomoric response and a strawman.


(Note* spell check is your friend)

 

[mont974x4]

With regards to salvation neither alters or prayers are the problem. People really need to think things through instead of just trying to search for the next thing to be against.


How the gospel is presented is the problem. The message presentation and just what salvation is tied to. If you got rid of sinners prayers and alters there would still be failures in gospel presentations and you would then have to search for something new to be against.

Agreed, except in order to correct the error in how the Gospel is presented we will likely have to address the altar and sinner's prayer issues directly. The reason I say that is because they have become such a huge crutch and part of the Church's folk theology. In other words, there needs to be a clear sacrifice of those two sacred cows, IMO.

The way the Gospel is presented in the West has more issues though. Far too often the sin issue is ignored. We have salvation being reduced to fire insurance (if you don't want to go to Hell but do want to go to Heaven then pray with me.....). We also have salvation being presented where God is a cosmic santa clause who grants your wishes if you are saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

Agreed, except in order to correct the error in how the Gospel is presented we will likely have to address the altar and sinner's prayer issues directly. The reason I say that is because they have become such a huge crutch and part of the Church's folk theology. In other words, there needs to be a clear sacrifice of those two sacred cows, IMO.

The way the Gospel is presented in the West has more issues though. Far too often the sin issue is ignored. We have salvation being reduced to fire insurance (if you don't want to go to Hell but do want to go to Heaven then pray with me.....). We also have salvation being presented where God is a cosmic santa clause who grants your wishes if you are saved.

There is no doubt they need to be addressed. My intent was not to communicate otherwise. My concern is deeming them as directly being the problem and calling for doing away with them altogether as a result. That is neither necessary nor appropriate. At my church the alter is more than about salvation. And the sinners prayer is just a fulfillment of Romans 10:10.

I hold that salvation and its realization and acceptance is to be a public confession and it is to be to the Lord. Not that it cannot happen privately but that it at some time needs to be made a public confession. This is also to be done through baptism as well. I do not believe in private baptisms and will not take part in them. Our Christians walk is to be a public thing, a light on a hill, and a candle in the candle stick. But I am getting into other things.

 

[Yeshua1]

Agreed, except in order to correct the error in how the Gospel is presented we will likely have to address the altar and sinner's prayer issues directly. The reason I say that is because they have become such a huge crutch and part of the Church's folk theology. In other words, there needs to be a clear sacrifice of those two sacred cows, IMO.

The way the Gospel is presented in the West has more issues though. Far too often the sin issue is ignored. We have salvation being reduced to fire insurance (if you don't want to go to Hell but do want to go to Heaven then pray with me.....). We also have salvation being presented where God is a cosmic santa clause who grants your wishes if you are saved.

We also seem to be missing something in the Gospel message, for if you look at the Biblcal examples, the people were moved to come to ask the Apsotles :what mustwe do to be saved?"

 

[mont974x4]

We also seem to be missing something in the Gospel message, for if you look at the Biblcal examples, the people were moved to come to ask the Apsotles :what mustwe do to be saved?"

I'm not sure what you're point is. Are you saying that we should be waiting for people to come asking? If so, how can you support that in light of the Great Commission, Jesus' example of going to and calling the 12, and Paul and others going out and preaching the Gospel to all who would listen (even though not all heard)?

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not sure what you're point is. Are you saying that we should be waiting for people to come asking? If so, how can you support that in light of the Great Commission, Jesus' example of going to and calling the 12, and Paul and others going out and preaching the Gospel to all who would listen (even though not all heard)?

No, more in the line of when the Apsotles and others gave jesus to inners, there seemed to be 'something; going on, as people got both saved and more hardened at same time, but people knew the church was in their midst, as it was a big influencing agent for their culture/society!

we as baptists should expect and have an influence in the areas God plants us in more than we seem to have, right?

 

[mont974x4]

No, more in the line of when the Apsotles and others gave jesus to inners, there seemed to be 'something; going on, as people got both saved and more hardened at same time, but people knew the church was in their midst, as it was a big influencing agent for their culture/society!

we as baptists should expect and have an influence in the areas God plants us in more than we seem to have, right?

I see. The Bible does tell us that no one comes unless God calls them first. Jesus explained the reason he spoke in parables was so that some would not understand the truth. Paul writes that the Gospel is offensive and a stumbling block.

Are you suggesting that this needs to be included in our presenting of the Gospel? It seems to me that this would be an unnecessary step. The doctrines of election etc can, and should, be addressed as a matter of discipleship/teaching/preaching for the Church.

 

[Yeshua1]

I see. The Bible does tell us that no one comes unless God calls them first. Jesus explained the reason he spoke in parables was so that some would not understand the truth. Paul writes that the Gospel is offensive and a stumbling block.

Are you suggesting that this needs to be included in our presenting of the Gospel? It seems to me that this would be an unnecessary step. The doctrines of election etc can, and should, be addressed as a matter of discipleship/teaching/preaching for the Church.

Not that we go back to parables teaching, as we are not back in Isreal times...


just saying that the early church seemed to have a much bigger influence/higher converion rate than we do in modern america in our churches!

 

[Revmitchell]

Not that we go back to parables teaching, as we are not back in Isreal times...


just saying that the early church seemed to have a much bigger influence/higher converion rate than we do in modern america in our churches!

Which Jesus said would happen because of the hardening of the hearts.