Featured Full Preterism: True or False

This is another reason why I take long breaks from this site: I get tired of saying the saying the same thing over and over again - and then reading comments like this. And you, OR, I consider one of the more careful and considerate writers on this board.

For the record: (May I borrow your red pen, OR?)

I am a Full Preterist.
I do not deny the bodily resurrection of Christ.
To deny that is to deny the very basis of our future hope.

You guys can either keep telling each other what we heretical Full Preterists believe ... or you can actually read what we write.

To disagree with we believe is one thing. But, at the very least, get your facts straight.

Of course the crux of the matter is the two types of resurrection. If there are two types of baptism and crucifixion, why should it seem incredible (or heretical) that the same rule applies to the resurrection?

We have a physical baptism and a spiritual baptism.
We have a physical crucifixion and a spiritual crucifixion.
Likewise we have the same for resurrection.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Paul sets two truths together in identical language:
1. We are planted together in the likeness of His death.
2. We shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection.

If 1 is true of us, then 2 necessarily follows.

Yet modern Christianity (especially Baptists), while making #1 an article of faith and practice, studiously avoid the "therefore" of Paul's #2.

They have trained themselves not to see the logical train of thought here, or their own inculturated inconsistency.

 

Will he saints be raised physically from their graves when jesus returns or not?

 

No.

Everyone who has even glanced at my posts knows that I don't believe that.

But the first point of my response is the mischaracterization of Full Preterism, most recently by you.

Did you even read the passage from Romans, and the comments that arose from that passage? Or did you zippity-skip it to get to your hasty Shibboleth?

 

All I know is that God raised jesus up in a physical resurrection from the grave, SAME body born with, but glorifed, and the Bible promises that we will have that same body as he has when he comes back again!

 

No need for me to even continue writing to you on this, I guess. You hold on to what you believe.

You are not discussing or considering anything. You are just chanting rote mantras. My presence is not needed here.

 

Do you hold to the physical/bodily resurrection of Jesus?

 

I already said this.

In red.

In bold.

 

Tom, here is the crux of the matter.
The question was asked:

Will he saints be raised physically from their graves when jesus returns or not?

Your answer is given above: "NO."

You also stated above that there are two kinds of resurrection: physical and spiritual.
That is false. That is the same kind of thinking that the J.W.'s have and it is heretical. There is no such thing as a "spiritual resurrection."
The word resurrection, by its very definition, always, always, refers to the body. When we speak of Jesus rising again we speak of His body, not his spirit.

Think of all the religions of the world.
Did Mohammed rise from the dead?
His spirit did. There was a spiritual resurrection. There always will be.
There was with Buddha, Mahatma Gandhi, Hitler, Stalin, each of the Apostles, etc. Each and every person that has died; their spirits have "risen."
Paul said, "to be absent from the flesh is to be present with the Lord."
The spirit rises to meet the Lord. The spirit does not stay inside a dead corpse at birth. It leaves. There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection.

Resurrection always, always refers to the body. That is why no other religion has ever claimed a physical resurrection or any resurrection for their prophets. There isn't any other kind but physical.

To deny the physical resurrection of either Jesus Christ or the coming physical resurrection of all the saints is simply to deny the resurrection completely. The resurrection is the resurrection of the body. That is the only resurrection that we know of; it is what the word means. If Preterism denies that, then they deny the gospel, and are in serious heresy.

 

DHK:

You give me no Scripture. You ignored the Scripture I posted, as did Yeshua1.

Instead you give an emotional response coupled with an unfair association with cultists.

And then you do the end-run with the heresy label. "End-run" because you didn't even bother with the fuss and muss of invoking Scripture.

I love God's Word (as I'm sure you do too). It keeps us all accountable. It also provides a basis for meaningful and productive discussion.

Leave the cultists, Islam, and Hitler out of this. Unless you do indeed see me as synonymous with them. Speak to me as a fellow brother in Christ. Respect my argument by at least dealing with the Scriptural points I raised.

Is that too much to ask?

 

Jesus said that he would raise up in 3 days the temple of his body, SAME body died in!

You deny that jesus rose in the same physical body died in, that it was glorified...

You also deny that he is still in that physical glorified body, correct?

 

I read what you said about Romans 6 and I disagree. Romans 6 says exactly what I said in post 28. The water baptism of Jesus showed exactly what took place by his death, raised to life again, Holy Spirit being given to him and he being declared the Son of God.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
The dead in Christ will be resurrected from Hades with incorruptible bodies of flesh and bone just as Jesus was.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Even so what? They also will be raised from the dead, soul and body.

 

I have to go to work now, so I only have time for this one comment.

I do not deny that Jesus rose in the same physical body that He died in.

I do not deny that Jesus rose in the same physical body that He died in.

I do not deny that Jesus rose in the same physical body that He died in.

This is the third time you have missed my answer. Maybe If I write it three times. it will click.

 

An appeal to Scripture is good.

Sadly, I see that you have only opening quotes, not closing. Be careful where you would insert those last quote marks. They do not include "soul and body".

Do you believe in a physical as well as a spiritual crucifixion? Do you believe in a physical as well as a spiritual baptism? Do you believe in a physical as well as a spiritual burial? If you do - and references to these in Ephesians and Romans can easily be found (as well as to spiritual and physical resurrection) - then why is it heretical to believe in a spiritual resurrection as well as a physical one? It is part of the same teaching.

It is only acculturated bias that keeps us from believing it.

 

No, it isn't.
Your posts indicate that you believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without that we cannot be saved. We have a point of agreement there. Right? (1Cor.15:1-4)

Now when Jesus came to see the disciples a second time, Thomas was with them. Thomas had doubted the resurrection. Jesus said to him: Come hither, touch the prints in my hands, my feet, my side. Be not faithless but believing. Thomas fell down and said: "My Lord and my God."
He believed when he saw the resurrected Lord.
Note again how "resurrection" refers to the body.

In 1Cor.15, Paul lists the different ones that Christ appeared to: Cephas, James, the twelve, and over 500 brethren "the greater part of whom are with us to this day," and "last of all to me as one who is born out of due time."
Again, this refers to a physical resurrection, not a "spirit" for they could all see Him. I am not questioning your faith here. I know you believe this. I am only establishing a base from which to work from--that the resurrection is always physical. When referring to Jesus Christ it never referred to spiritual.

Now later, approximately 40 days later the ascension took place.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
--While they were looking he was taken up, physically. He was physically among them, and then started to arise toward the clouds.
--A cloud received him. That is he went into the cloud.

Wycliffe translated it this way:
Acts 1:9 And whanne he had seid these thingis, in her siyt he was lift vp, and a cloude resseyuede him fro her iyen.
--He was lift up.

In verse 10 he went up. As they were gazing, watching in astonishment this amazing event two angels appear (another astonishing event in itself), and ask them why they keep on staring.
It was a rhetorical question, for they reassure them that Christ, whom they saw physically arise into heaven will come the same way. The only time that he will come that specific way back to this earth is during that event that we call the rapture.
The Second Coming itself will occur a little later when he will come in power and glory with the glory of the Father and the holy angels.

Again:
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
--Note how Paul, in verse 18 says these are words of comfort, just as they were words of comfort from the angels in Acts one.
What will happen? Christ will come as he went in Acts one. He will descend "in the clouds." A bit more detail is added here. There will be a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. Then those in Christ shall arise; not spiritually, but physically. The dead in Christ will come out of their graves to meet Christ, and then we which are alive will ascend to meet him also. A resurrection is always physical. This is the first resurrection. All of those who have already died, their spirits have already separated from their body, and have risen. Take the apostles for example. Where are their spirits now? But at this time their bodies will arise from the graves and be once again joined with their spirits in a new and glorified body.

Again:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Again, the rapture; the first resurrection. Christ shall appear. It will be physical with that same body that he still has. When we see him we will be like him. We also will receive a glorified body. We shall see him as he is (in a glorified body), and we also will have one.

We will have a celestial body as promised in 1Cor.15. It will still be physical, but heavenly at the same time.

The resurrection cannot be denied. Not His; not ours.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
--I am blessed to know that I will take part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over me. I will not be present for the second resurrection.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--The above is the second resurrection; the resurrection of the dead. They will have bodies, and body and soul will be cast into the lake of fire. John sees them standing before the Great Judge; people, not spirits.

"Fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell."

 

Sorry I copied from RSV:

and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Changes nothing;

The soul that sins it shall die. The spirit of life will have departed to God who gave it and the body without the spirit will also be dead and in time will rot away.

Jesus, I am the resurrection (of the dead) and the life (source of eternal life)
He (the living soul) who believes in me, though he (the living soul) die (no longer living but dead); yet shall he live, (by resurrection) and whosoever lives (by that resurrection) and believes in me shall never die. (neither can they die again Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.)

The soul that sins it shall die.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, (Hades) neither his flesh did see corruption. Acts 2:31

DHK is wrong, the soul and the body of the dead will be resurrected.

But some will say, How are the dead (the soul who died or the body who died?) raised up? and with what body do they (they what? souls or bodies?) come?

What dwells in the earthly house of tabernacle that rots away?

 

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Keeping in mind that up to this moment Jesus the Christ is the only man who has ever lived and died and has been resurrected from the dead, as he the Son of Man was raised.

Others had been resurrected from the dead but up until this very moment only Jesus is called the firstborn from the dead, never to die again, however scripture states that at some point in time he will be the firstborn of many brethren.

Now if there is no resurrection as such then Christ has not been raised.

This is the Christ, who was made sin for us and died for our sins.


Where would the soul of Jesus be today and what would have happened to his body?

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What was the glory Jesus was asking his Father for and when did His Father, God, give it to him?

1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

What kind of glory did he give him? The kind that would not fade away. Read the balance of the chapter. Eternal Life Glory.

Jesus the Christ the Son of God the seed of Abrahan and David is the promised seed.

This promise was made for him of which it was, foreordained before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:20 that he would be slain, that is die for the sin of the world.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

He became the author and finisher of the faith because he died on the cross and was resurrected to the throne of his Father in heaven.

If we are not resurrected from the dead or quicken by putting on immortality with incorruptible bodies we will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

I don't really have time right now as I have a full time job, a separate part time job, a difficult (for me) math class and family/church/volunteer firefighter/EMT things going on now.

The Apostle John quoted Jesus as saying (John 14:2-3 in the simplified NIr version) “There are many rooms in my Father’s house. If this were not true, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. If I go and do that, I will come back. And I will take you to be with me. Then you will also be where I am".

QUESTIONs: On what date did Jesus return (come back) to receive those saints to himself? When it happened, did anyone notice? Who do you know noticed and how did that affect them and their behavor and their personal relationship with religion and or faith in God? What evidence do you offer to make the claim that this already happened? From the preterist view, could not this event be classified as a super secret rapture, so secret that even after 20 centuries there is not bit of evidence of the event?

And if this event already happened, what other alternate Biblical promises can 21st century saints use as a replacement verse/passage to keep our hearts from being troubled and looking forward to Jesus coming for us and showing us our own room in the Fathers house? Paul speaks of the blessed hope Titus 2:13, the second coming of Christ. What is the new blessed hope if this event already happened?

The Jehovah's Wintesses teach that Jesus returned in 1914 or 1915. Given that I myself do not believe that Jesus has returned yet, would you say that with respect to the second coming of Jesus, an event with 100s of Bible passages in support, that the JWs are closer to the truth than futurist like myself?



John quotes Jesus speaking to the church in Philadelphia (Revelation 3:9) "Some people claim they are Jews but are not. They are liars. Their worship is from Satan. I will make them come and fall down at your feet. I will make them say in public that I love you."

QUESTIONs: On what date did Jesus make the Jews fall down at the feet of this particular church to confess before men that Jesus did infact did love/loved them? What proof do you offer that this actually happened? Why and for what purpose did Jesus promise that the Jews would do this thing in public (acknowledge the love of Christ) if Jehovah is done with the Jews as the covenant/reformed/replacement/preterist teach?

Is it possible that John wrote(Rev 3"9) "Jews" when he really ment "Christians"? Is it possible that Jesus misspoke and ment to say "Christians" instead of "Jews"? If Christians are the Israel of God or the true Israel as the reformed claim, then how did those liars get baptized into the new covenant? And why didn't the church simply throw them out of the church, using the normal Biblical church disclipline?

Likewise, in this passage (Rev 3:9) is it possible that John and/or Jesus ment to say "church" when in that passage we read "synagogue"?

And is there any difference between a man saying that Jesus loved him and a man confessing his sins and trusting in Christ for his salvation? And if there is a difference, what would those differences be?



John quotes Jesus as follows (Revelation 20:6) "Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them. They will be priests of God and of Christ. They will rule with him for 1,000 years."

QUESTION: If this first resurrection has already taken place as the big thinking heavy lifting preterist claim, then how does the Lord Jesus bring this world to a final end without a second second coming? R.C. Sproul is at least honest on this point and states Jesus will return a 3rd time. But we know that the preterist big thinkers like to make the false claim that the dispensationalists err in teaching that the rapture is the 2nd coming (1 Thess 4:13-17) and the return at the end of the tribulation (Matt ch 24-25) are two distinct events making the dispies teach 3 comings of Christ. But you yourselves teach 3 distinct comings of Christ. How/Why/When?