Just for illustrative purposes. I also mentioned Islam and the RCC. I am not comparing you to them. I am comparing what is defined as "spirit" resurrection, to what others believe, whether they be J.W. or anyone else. I know that you believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that the J.W.'s don't. However when we go one step further, and talk about the resurrection in general, the resurrection of each one of us, then how do we differ? Please don't ignore the rest of the post because of my inclusion of one illustration that you find offensive.
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Full Preterism: True or False
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psalms109:31
Active Member
2 Corinthians 5
Awaiting the New Body
5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
"1. The believer’s expectation of eternal happiness after death, v. 1. He does not only know, or is well assured by faith of the truth and reality of the thing itself-that there is another and a happy life after this present life is ended, but he has good hope through grace of his interest in that everlasting blessedness of the unseen world: "We know that we have a building of God, we have a firm and well-grounded expectation of the future felicity.’’ Let us take notice, (1.) What heaven is in the eye and hope of a believer. He looks upon it as a house, or habitation, a dwelling-place, a resting-place, a hiding-place, our Father’s house, where there are many mansions, and our everlasting home. It is a house in the heavens, in that high and holy place which as far excels all the palaces of this earth as the heavens are high above the earth. It is a building of God, whose builder and maker is God, and therefore is worthy of its author; the happiness of the future state is what God hath prepared for those that love him. It is eternal in the heavens, everlasting habitations, not like the earthly tabernacles, the poor cottages of clay in which our souls now dwell, which are mouldering and decaying, and whose foundations are in the dust. (2.) When it is expected this happiness shall be enjoyed-immediately after death, so soon as our house of this earthly tabernacle is dissolved. Note, [1.] That the body, this earthly house, is but a tabernacle, that must be dissolved shortly; the nails or pins will be drawn, and the cords be loosed, and then the body will return to dust as it was. [2.] When this comes to pass, then comes the house not made with hands. The spirit returns to God who gave it; and such as have walked with God here shall dwell with God for ever."
Matthew Henry
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
Revelation 7:
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[Isaiah 49:10]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[Isaiah 49:10]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[Isaiah 25:8]”
1 Corinthians 15 :
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[Psalm 8:6] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Awaiting the New Body
5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
"1. The believer’s expectation of eternal happiness after death, v. 1. He does not only know, or is well assured by faith of the truth and reality of the thing itself-that there is another and a happy life after this present life is ended, but he has good hope through grace of his interest in that everlasting blessedness of the unseen world: "We know that we have a building of God, we have a firm and well-grounded expectation of the future felicity.’’ Let us take notice, (1.) What heaven is in the eye and hope of a believer. He looks upon it as a house, or habitation, a dwelling-place, a resting-place, a hiding-place, our Father’s house, where there are many mansions, and our everlasting home. It is a house in the heavens, in that high and holy place which as far excels all the palaces of this earth as the heavens are high above the earth. It is a building of God, whose builder and maker is God, and therefore is worthy of its author; the happiness of the future state is what God hath prepared for those that love him. It is eternal in the heavens, everlasting habitations, not like the earthly tabernacles, the poor cottages of clay in which our souls now dwell, which are mouldering and decaying, and whose foundations are in the dust. (2.) When it is expected this happiness shall be enjoyed-immediately after death, so soon as our house of this earthly tabernacle is dissolved. Note, [1.] That the body, this earthly house, is but a tabernacle, that must be dissolved shortly; the nails or pins will be drawn, and the cords be loosed, and then the body will return to dust as it was. [2.] When this comes to pass, then comes the house not made with hands. The spirit returns to God who gave it; and such as have walked with God here shall dwell with God for ever."
Matthew Henry
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
Revelation 7:
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[Isaiah 49:10]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[Isaiah 49:10]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[Isaiah 25:8]”
1 Corinthians 15 :
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[Psalm 8:6] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Historical Christianity always viewed the sainst as being physically raisen, in same body God gave them, just as opur Lord was physically raised in same fashion!
paul said that the dead in Christ shall rise first, and IF alreadu 'spiritually resurrection" what would they do with the physical body raising up to meet them unless they would once again be in tjheir physicasl body reunited, now glorified?
We do NOT have the fullness of our salvation, as God purchased back with Jesus death our physical selves also, as we will be kept physical bodies, glorified states, for eternity!
Angels stated this SAME jesus will return one day, John saw Him returning back to earth at His Second Coming, and that is the mystery of the Incarnation, as Secone person of the Godhead chose to became a Human in the Incarnation, and FOREVER more will be God/Man..
We will look upon his wounds and marvel at the Grace of God forever!
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Except for the fact that you cannot base most of this on the teaching of the Bible. Like the covenants of works, grace and redemption, well meaning as they are, the fact is it is opinion that is not supported in the Word.
And of course I cannot speak for DHK, but to me, his comparison to some of what you say to that of what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe is easy because they teach essentially the same thing with respect to the physical body of Jesus. And that Sir is the truth and you cannot prove me to be incorrect on this. And that is why I mentioned the JWs in a post upthread.
I believe the Lord was raised in the body which was entombed three days and three nights previously. Raised however incorruptible yet which had been subject to corruption. See Acts 13:34 I believe it to be implied that Lazarus had begun to stink for he had been dead in excess of four days.
Now.
1 Cor 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? ----- Dead what/ Dead bodies, that makes no sense read with the rest of the sentence. Dead souls, and with what body do they come?
36 [Thou] fool, that (soul) which thou sowest is not quickened, except it
die:
37 And that (soul) which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other:
38 But God giveth it (soul) a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed (soul) his own body.
Now compare:
2 Cor 5:1 For we (souls) know that if our earthly house (body) of tabernacle were dissolved, (corrupts away) we (souls) have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (an body which God will give the soul in order that the soul will be found naked, the same word for bear in 1C15:37)
2 For in this we (souls) groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house (body) which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we (souls) shall not be found naked. (bare)
4 For we (souls) that are in tabernacle (earthly house, body) do groan, being burdened: not for that we (mortal souls) would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality (the soul that died) might be swallowed up of life. The eternal life which comes with the incorruptible house from heaven at the appearing again of Jesus.
I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, ye may be also.
From John 14:2,3
2C5:5,6 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (Until the soul is clothed with our house from heaven we will be absent from the Lord) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
It is not about dying and going to heaven it is about being born again as a spiritual being into the kingdom of God.
The new birth and the resurrection are never equated with each other.
I am born again, but I have not been resurrected. I would never make such a claim. I look forward to the resurrection, as Paul looked forward to the resurrection. He took great pains to write in great detail about a physical resurrection that would take place in the future in 1Corinthians chapter 15.
John told us in 1John 3:2 that our bodies would be like his body. The graves someday will open, and all that are in them will rise. Though it will happen at two separate times, separated by one thousand years.
I ask people now: "Have you been born again"? I don't ask them "Have you been resurrected"?
In Romans 8, Paul says: "We wait for the redemption of our bodies." I await that day also.
he does seem to echo the views of the JW in the facts that he teaches a spiritual presense Second coming of Christ, a spiritual resurrection for us, and in the fact he seems to say as they do that jesus 'changed" now, no longer as he was while on earth, that he is different post resurrection now!
Is it absolutely necessary for you to be resurrected if dead or to be instantly changed if still alive at the appearing of Jesus Christ in order for your born again self to inherit the kingdom of God?
If you are all you need to be to enter and or see the kingdom of God why would there need to be something else to take place for you to inherit the kingdom of God? Why does Jesus equate entering the kingdom of God in the story where the young ruler asks what he must do to inherit eternal life to eternal life? Why do the disciples equate this inheriting eternal life which has been equated by Jesus to entering the kingdom of God with being saved?
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Is that the same be saved the disciples were speaking of?
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Who believes in a lesser Jesus, me or you? I believe He is the same now that He was pre-Incarnation, in the same essence He had throughout eternity past. How can that be a lowered, denigrating (let alone, cultic) view of the second person of the Trinity?
Can perfection be perfected?
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John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
--Up to this point no man had seen God. They couldn't. If a man would see God, he would die. But God became man.
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
--Jesus still retains his resurrected body to this day. He became man, and still has that resurrected body. Christ stood, as he was seated on the right hand of the throne of God, to welcome Stephen, the first Christian martyr into heaven. Stephen saw Jesus before he actually died. He wasn't simply spirit. He had his body, though he was in heaven.
Christ became man; took on a body. He did not have this body in heaven.
He was always deity. That never changed. In that sense he has always been the same: yesterday, today and forever. That nature of Christ will always be the same. But today he now has a body.
No. You have it backwards. It is absolutely necessary for you to be born again in order for you to be resurrected when Jesus comes for his own. And after that believers will enter into the kingdom of God with glorified bodies. I am born again now, but I am not resurrected, and do not have a glorified body. But I am born again; I am absolutely sure of that. Born again does not equal resurrection.
Because Jesus said so.
John 3:3--Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Because he knows the hearts of all men. He knew that the rich young ruler would not trust Christ but rather his riches. He was demonstrating that the rich young ruler had lied, when he said he had kept all the commandments "from his youth." He had not. He coveted his riches more than he desired Christ. That was his great sin. No man can keep the law. Jesus demonstrated that. He gives the application: "How hardly shall a rich man enter into the kingdom of God." Why? They trust in their riches--they covet them.
Because it is. Once saved that is one of the benefits of having eternal life--entering into the kingdom of God. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." Salvation is a gift. That gift is eternal life.
The life spoken of in Romans 5:10 is the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the most vital part of the gospel (the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ). Without the resurrection his death was in vain. Thus we are saved by his life. I serve a living Savior; not a dead Christ.
HisWitness
New Member
You, DHK who were, "born again," when "you," put, "your faith," in Jesus, you the one who has been born of the spirit permit me to ask; Before you, the one just spoken of, can inherit the kingdom of God will there have to be a change made to you or some part/being of you?
What is it about your current, "born again," state of being, that would prohibit you from inheriting the kingdom of God?
Why would your body need to be changed?
Please show a scripture showing something needs to be changed and explain to me why a change would be needed.
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Salvation and regeneration are simultaneous events. They take place at the same time. I have been both born again and saved for 40 plus years now.
The resurrection has not yet taken place. When it does, we all (believers in Christ) will receive glorified bodies. That has not happened yet. In Romans 8 it says "we wait for the redemption of our bodies." We are still under the curse. In John 3:2, When Jesus comes we shall see him as he is and we shall be like him. That is we shall receive a body like his, a glorified body. In 1Cor.15, Paul goes into great detail about the resurrection, and what will happen on that day, but he makes it very plain that if the resurrection (our physical resurrection) will not take place, then it is only logical to conclude that neither did the resurrection of Jesus. And your faith is in vain.
Nothing.
I know that if I should die right now, that I would go to heaven, as surely as if I was already there.
Just as the apostles, Mary, and other Godly people that have died and passed on before me are in heaven, their bodies are in the grave. Some were burned at the stake, some drowned, some tortured beyond recognition, but their bodies will rise again and meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Because the body of Jesus needed to be changed.
It is a terrestial body housing this spirit for a temporary period of time.
We will put of this body some day, a body that is under the curse, prone to the second law of thermodynamics and receive a glorified body, a celestial body, that will never suffer decay and never endure pain.
You are quoting Scripture out of context. Find the Scripture. Quote the passage. And I will show you how you are using it wrongly.
This is basic theology. If you don't know the answer to these questions, you need help.
Thus I fail to see where you are going with this. Do you need salvation to be explained to you?
For the nephesh of, the flesh in the blood: Leviticus 17:11
In the KJV, nephesh is translated soul 475 times. Here in Lev. 17:11 it is translated, "life," and also 116 more times elsewhere.
For the soul of, the flesh in the blood.
Flesh and blood that which is corruptible, is the tabernacle of the soul (living), that is to be with life. For the flesh in the blood is the tabernacle of the soul to be living requires life (spirit) from elsewhere. That life, by spirit, from the living God, that is Spirit the God, in the tabernacle, the flesh in the blood make up the living soul. A soul that can be and do, because it has spirit, life from God.
When that spirit life from God departs back to God who gave it, the soul that once had life because of the spirit from God is now dead. Can not do, and the tabernacle of it the flesh in the blood, dissolves and or rots away. For the soul to once again be living it would have to be made alive again or shall we say resurrected from the dead. Regenerated.
Jesus the Christ poured out his soul unto death. Isa.53:12
His soul could do no more for it had no life in it. It lay dead in the place of death called in the OT Sheol and in the NT Hades.
It had been dead from the moment he commended his spirit, that life from God his Father which kept him a living soul, returned into the hands of the Father until the Father raised him from the dead and quickened him. John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
Is this what the word of God says or not. Please do not use John 10:18 to refute this, for the word translated, "take," there is translated, "receive," more times than it is, "take." The Father, Spirit the God, (see John 4:23,24 in the Greek) raised the Son from the dead.
In the KJV, nephesh is translated soul 475 times. Here in Lev. 17:11 it is translated, "life," and also 116 more times elsewhere.
For the soul of, the flesh in the blood.
Flesh and blood that which is corruptible, is the tabernacle of the soul (living), that is to be with life. For the flesh in the blood is the tabernacle of the soul to be living requires life (spirit) from elsewhere. That life, by spirit, from the living God, that is Spirit the God, in the tabernacle, the flesh in the blood make up the living soul. A soul that can be and do, because it has spirit, life from God.
When that spirit life from God departs back to God who gave it, the soul that once had life because of the spirit from God is now dead. Can not do, and the tabernacle of it the flesh in the blood, dissolves and or rots away. For the soul to once again be living it would have to be made alive again or shall we say resurrected from the dead. Regenerated.
Jesus the Christ poured out his soul unto death. Isa.53:12
His soul could do no more for it had no life in it. It lay dead in the place of death called in the OT Sheol and in the NT Hades.
It had been dead from the moment he commended his spirit, that life from God his Father which kept him a living soul, returned into the hands of the Father until the Father raised him from the dead and quickened him. John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
Is this what the word of God says or not. Please do not use John 10:18 to refute this, for the word translated, "take," there is translated, "receive," more times than it is, "take." The Father, Spirit the God, (see John 4:23,24 in the Greek) raised the Son from the dead.
Please look more carefully at what you have written. You qualified (pared down, actually) the verse to refer only to Christ's deity. But it refers to more than that.
I ask again: Can perfection be perfected? Christ was always perfect from eternity past, just as the Father and Spirit were and are. For the second person of the Triunity to take on flesh and blood - and keep it throughout the "other half" of eternity (from ascension on through eternity future) would definitely be a change of a profound degree.
Such a change goes against what we are told of Christ and God in Scripture. It is also contrary to this verse.
BTW, I really want to write more on this thread, but am constrained by time. Luckily I have good access to this site again. But I have classes every day right up until the time we leave Jilin. And then we will be finally be able to see other parts of China before we fly out from Hong Kong on the 14th. All this to explain my probably sporadic writing in the next few weeks.
And, Percho, I am puzzled by your comments about what I should teach my students. I teach them oral English, not theology. (At least not in classroom settings).
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