Hell

[Bronconagurski]

Considering your reactions, I got the impression that it was you who was uncomfortable with the exchange of ideas.

And yet I have layed it out there for all to see how I believe, yet wild horses can't drag a direct answer out of you and Hiswitness. We can talk all day long about what this person wrote, what that one wrote, blah, blah, blah. The exchange of ideas come when we say what we believe, given the information that is out there. Do you believe that the people cast into the lake of fire will be there forever? I believe the question deserves an answer given all that you have said here.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I disagree. So, back to my question. Do you believe in eternal life of the Christian?

Are you saying that you disagree that that is what he means? I know you disagree that an age is not an eternity.

I believe that a Christian who continues to believe has eternal life, but as a General (not Calvinist) Baptist, I think it is possible to stop believing.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Are you saying that you disagree that that is what he means? I know you disagree that an age is not an eternity.

I believe that a Christian who continues to believe has eternal life, but as a General (not Calvinist) Baptist, I think it is possible to stop believing.

I disagree with Young if he believes that life is not eternal. If you believe that someone can be lost again, then you are not a conservative Baptist, no offense. But I know plenty of denominations that believe that people are not saved eternally and can be lost again. But to tell you the truth, I was talking about after bodily death. If a person dies saved, will they live eternally with Christ, and if they die lost, will they spend eternity in the Lake of fire?

 

[HisWitness]

And yet I have layed it out there for all to see how I believe, yet wild horses can't drag a direct answer out of you and Hiswitness. We can talk all day long about what this person wrote, what that one wrote, blah, blah, blah. The exchange of ideas come when we say what we believe, given the information that is out there. Do you believe that the people cast into the lake of fire will be there forever? I believe the question deserves an answer given all that you have said here.

(The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe. The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.) Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity.

 

[Bronconagurski]

(The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe. The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.) Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity.

No, our concepts of hell come from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who had way more to say about hell than heaven. He is the one that told us it is a place of torment, fire and brimstone, everlasting punishment, and where the worm dies not.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I disagree with Young if he believes that life is not eternal. If you believe that someone can be lost again, then you are not a conservative Baptist, no offense. But I know plenty of denominations that believe that people are not saved eternally and can be lost again. But to tell you the truth, I was talking about after bodily death. If a person dies saved, will they live eternally with Christ, and if they die lost, will they spend eternity in the Lake of fire?

No offense taken, but I must take issue with you there. You have hit on a sore spot with me. Both the General Baptists and the Free Will Baptists are conservative denominations, with the latter being considerably more conservative than I am. I would even call them fundamentalist. I don't see what conservatism has to do with the issue of eternal security. Even liberal Baptists believe in that.

 

[HisWitness]

No, our concepts of hell come from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who had way more to say about hell than heaven. He is the one that told us it is a place of torment, fire and brimstone, everlasting punishment, and where the worm dies not.

ok have it your way

 

[Bronconagurski]

No offense taken, but I must take issue with you there. You have hit on a sore spot with me. Both the General Baptists and the Free Will Baptists are conservative denominations, with the latter being considerably more conservative than I am. I would even call them fundamentalist. I don't see what conservatism has to do with the issue of eternal security. Even liberal Baptists believe in that.

Maybe so, I just have never met any. All, and I mean all, of the Baptist Bible colleges I know of teach eternal security. But we can agree to disagree there.

You overlooked my question on about if a saved person dies, is he then saved eternally, or if a lost person dies, is he then punished eternally in the lake of fire. What think you concerning that?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Here is another point to consider. I touched on it earlier, but no one commented, or if they did, I missed it. Not talking about word meanings now: Where did the idea of hell in Christianity come from? I mean the concept of hell that is being defended here. Considering that the concept of hell in Judaism has nothing in common with the ideas being defended by several, and since Christianity was originally a "sect" within Judaism, if hell means what some here say it does, where did that concept and definition come from? It certainly did not come from Judaism.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Maybe so, I just have never met any. All, and I mean all, of the Baptist Bible colleges I know of teach eternal security. But we can agree to disagree there.

You overlooked my question on about if a saved person dies, is he then saved eternally, or if a lost person dies, is he then punished eternally in the lake of fire. What think you concerning that?

Well, I don't know if you'll understand what I am about to say because I don't fully understand it myself.

In short, I don't know. This is something I struggle with. To me, there is enough contrary evidence to give me pause. I am not a universalist, as I have said. I don't see how anyone could claim that they know that all will be finally saved.

On the other hand, my views are necessarily fraught with ambiguity because I am not God. One thing that troubles me is that I can't reconcile or explain the view of hell that you and many hold with the completely different view in Judaism from which Christianity sprang. If Jesus and early Christians taught what you believe, where did they get it from? They didn't get it from Judaism. In fact, I posted an article showing that the early Christians did not believe and teach the concept of hell that developed later.

So I am content to say that I don't know. I just trust that God knows and is just. That's good enough for me.

In the end, I would tell people that it is unwise and dangerous to reject the Gospel and very sad and tragic to be separated from God. I hate to think of anyone being separated and cut off from God for any period of time, whether a day, a hundred years, a thousand years, or an eternity. It seems if we really believed that, we would be out on the streets witnessing instead of typing on a computer. And, yes, that's an indictment of me, too. I find it difficult to witness like that because I am very much an introvert. These forums are my way of witnessing, and I just hope I can do a little good that way.

Now if anyone wants to say I am going to hell or banish me from the forum because I say I don't know the ultimate answer, then so be it. I am just a puny human being struggling to be faithful to my Savior, behind a window from which a view is sometimes not completely clear.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Here is another point to consider. I touched on it earlier, but no one commented, or if they did, I missed it. Not talking about word meanings now: Where did the idea of hell in Christianity come from? I mean the concept of hell that is being defended here. Considering that the concept of hell in Judaism has nothing in common with the ideas being defended by several, and since Christianity was originally a "sect" within Judaism, if hell means what some here say it does, where did that concept and definition come from? It certainly did not come from Judaism.

From Jesus in the N.T. It could mean the grave in Hebrew, but also Hell, and was translated as such when appropriate. Remember, the church was a mystery until Christ came, and although Jews thought Gentiles could be made proselytes, they never dreamed they would be on equal terms with Jews for salvation.

Also from Moses, Abraham, and David, who all believed in an afterlife. Sheoul at that time was what the N.T. calls paradise and a great gulf divided the lost from the saved. Jesus made that plain. Then Jesus led captivity captive and the O.T. saints are now in Heaven and the lost are still in hell, awaiting their final judgement at the great white throne.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

From Jesus in the N.T. It could mean the grave in Hebrew, but also Hell, and was translated as such when appropriate. Remember, the church was a mystery until Christ came, and although Jews thought Gentiles could be made proselytes, they never dreamed they would be on equal terms with Jews for salvation.

Also from Moses, Abraham, and David, who all believed in an afterlife. Sheoul at that time was what the N.T. calls paradise and a great gulf divided the lost from the saved. Jesus made that plain. Then Jesus led captivity captive and the O.T. saints are now in Heaven and the lost are still in hell, awaiting their final judgement at the great white throne.

Yes, but where did Jesus get it from. Jesus was God, but He was also man, a Jewish man. He did not exist in a vacuum.

 

[HisWitness]

From Jesus in the N.T. It could mean the grave in Hebrew, but also Hell, and was translated as such when appropriate. Remember, the church was a mystery until Christ came, and although Jews thought Gentiles could be made proselytes, they never dreamed they would be on equal terms with Jews for salvation.

Also from Moses, Abraham, and David, who all believed in an afterlife. Sheoul at that time was what the N.T. calls paradise and a great gulf divided the lost from the saved. Jesus made that plain. Then Jesus led captivity captive and the O.T. saints are now in Heaven and the lost are still in hell, awaiting their final judgement at the great white throne.

a wise man once said 1 lie leads to MANY lies

 

[MB]

i have stated to you what i believe on the

As far as a rendering of the word of Hell that states that there is a place mankind is cast into where God is not there--and its in the afterlife-and that they shall fry and sizzle for all eternity--i dont think you can find that rendering at all in the scritures

Hope this is enough info for you to start making comments

Luk_16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Just what is it that you think happens to men who have been ressurrected tried and convicted and placed in Hell and being tortured by flames?
MB

 

[HisWitness]

Luk_16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Just what is it that you think happens to men who have been ressurrected tried and convicted and placed in Hell and being tortured by flames?
MB

Again that is a PARABLE--when a person died their body and SOUL were dead

Psalm 6-5:states In DEATH there is NO remembrance--SOUL is Dead--so that was a PARABLE and not a true story

 

[Bronconagurski]

a wise man once said 1 lie leads to MANY lies

Is that how your teacher fooled you?

 

[HisWitness]

Is that how your teacher fooled you?

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Bronconagurski]

Again that is a PARABLE--when a person died their body and SOUL were dead

Psalm 6-5:states In DEATH there is NO remembrance--SOUL is Dead--so that was a PARABLE and not a true story

Not true. Show me where Jesus said it was a parable. You can't. We have already been thru your distortions on this, so spare me.:sleeping_2: The rich man did have a memory, which makes you wrong. Sheesh, man, why do you insist on propagating these false doctrines? If you are right, no one is gonna be punished eternally, and everyone is going to Heaven. If I believed that I would not be here combatting your lies, but out somewhere fishing. Deep down you have to know you have been sold a bill of goods. If not, then you are unwittingly doing the Devil's work. Congrats.

 

[HisWitness]

Not true. Show me where Jesus said it was a parable. You can't. We have already been thru your distortions on this, so spare me.:sleeping_2: The rich man did have a memory, which makes you wrong. Sheesh, man, why do you insist on propagating these false doctrines? If you are right, no one is gonna be punished eternally, and everyone is going to Heaven. If I believed that I would not be here combatting your lies, but out somewhere fishing. Deep down you have to know you have been sold a bill of goods. If not, then you are unwittingly doing the Devil's work. Congrats.

The SOUL that sinneth IT(Soul) shall DIE--the punishment of the old testament for sin through adam was DEATH.

Psalm 6-4: again In DEATH(when a person dies)there is NO remembrance.
How can that be a true story when the rest of scriptures teach that the SOUL is dead and has no conscience(remembrance)in the grave ?

here again youll go against the teachings of the rest of the bible to prove 1 false assumption

 

[Bronconagurski]

Everytime you ask me could I be wrong, then check yourself and ask the same question. I have searhed out my own salvation with fear and trembling. If there is no eternal punishment, why should God command me thru His word to do that? There is no logic whatsoever by the no hellers and universalists.