You are making the same mistake as convicted1. Being spiritually dead is synonymous with being a sinner. A sinner is enslaved to sin as a matter of being. It is the sinners nature that keeps him enslaved to sin. And while the sinner is dead in his trespasses and sin, he still has a nature. That nature is a sin nature, and it is dead to righteousness.
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The meaning of "dead" in terms of spiritually dead?
- Thread starter convicted1
- Start date
You are making the same mistake as convicted1. Being spiritually dead is synonymous with being a sinner. A sinner is enslaved to sin as a matter of being. It is the sinners nature that keeps him enslaved to sin. And while the sinner is dead in his trespasses and sin, he still has a nature. That nature is a sin nature, and it is dead to righteousness.
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you John 15:14
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
You in your sinful state cannot even approach God.
In every case in the OT and in the NT the initiator has been God. Even then sin stood in the way. Therefore when God called, he put the one called in belief of what was to come, the faith, in order to deal with the one called. God, imputed his righteousness to the one called by the faith that was to come. The faith to come was the singular seed of Abraham, the seed to come to whom the promises were made. Read all of Gal. 3 Esp. verses 14, 16, 18,19 and 22-. Before the faith came. After the faith did come.
Paul calls this the faith of Abraham. It was the faith by which Abraham or anyone else called of God. believed. Example, which someone above alluded to without understanding of this.
Why was the beggar carried into the bosom of the Abraham?
The beggar, Lazarus was the servant of Abraham, Eliezer Greek Lazarus.
He was of the faith of Abraham. His name means "my God is help".
The both died in the faith to come by which they could be resurrected and given the gift of God, eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Here is, "the faith," to come that would change all that.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
The sin that separates has been addressed. V10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.> His resurrected life allows his blood to wash us from our sin removing us from the eternal penalty of death from sin, which the law showed us to be in, and allows us to be put under the grace of his resurrected life<. This is what we heard of by which we received the Spirit. The faith.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
You in your sinful state cannot even approach God.
In every case in the OT and in the NT the initiator has been God. Even then sin stood in the way. Therefore when God called, he put the one called in belief of what was to come, the faith, in order to deal with the one called. God, imputed his righteousness to the one called by the faith that was to come. The faith to come was the singular seed of Abraham, the seed to come to whom the promises were made. Read all of Gal. 3 Esp. verses 14, 16, 18,19 and 22-. Before the faith came. After the faith did come.
Paul calls this the faith of Abraham. It was the faith by which Abraham or anyone else called of God. believed. Example, which someone above alluded to without understanding of this.
Why was the beggar carried into the bosom of the Abraham?
The beggar, Lazarus was the servant of Abraham, Eliezer Greek Lazarus.
He was of the faith of Abraham. His name means "my God is help".
The both died in the faith to come by which they could be resurrected and given the gift of God, eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Here is, "the faith," to come that would change all that.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
The sin that separates has been addressed. V10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.> His resurrected life allows his blood to wash us from our sin removing us from the eternal penalty of death from sin, which the law showed us to be in, and allows us to be put under the grace of his resurrected life<. This is what we heard of by which we received the Spirit. The faith.
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Being spiritually dead means being dead in trespass and sins which mean just what God told Adam, the day thou eat thereof, Dying thou shall surely die. Be dead.
Something would have to be done about that, to overcome that, for it meant forever.
However God had already, before the man Adam was created, made a promise.
That promise was not made for Adam or for any of his sinful offspring. It was made for the one who would come of which Adam was the type, one who would be without sin, without blemish or spot yet would die the death assigned to the living soul Adam. One who in obedience of faith, would lay down his life. Die forever except for a promise made of God of HOPE.
We can only share in that promise through Him. If He wasn't given that promise, we surely will not be given it. Heirs and joint heirs.
Did he fear this death? Hebrews 5:7,8 Hebrews 12:4 Luke 22:42-44
Would it have been sin for him to not have been obedient, to not, of his own self to lay down his being.
The word of God speaks of life and death. Neither are modified as physical or spiritual. We have developed the concept but in the end it will be one or the other.
If Christ be not raised, he is dead forever and you are still in your sins.
Something would have to be done about that, to overcome that, for it meant forever.
However God had already, before the man Adam was created, made a promise.
That promise was not made for Adam or for any of his sinful offspring. It was made for the one who would come of which Adam was the type, one who would be without sin, without blemish or spot yet would die the death assigned to the living soul Adam. One who in obedience of faith, would lay down his life. Die forever except for a promise made of God of HOPE.
We can only share in that promise through Him. If He wasn't given that promise, we surely will not be given it. Heirs and joint heirs.
Did he fear this death? Hebrews 5:7,8 Hebrews 12:4 Luke 22:42-44
Would it have been sin for him to not have been obedient, to not, of his own self to lay down his being.
The word of God speaks of life and death. Neither are modified as physical or spiritual. We have developed the concept but in the end it will be one or the other.
If Christ be not raised, he is dead forever and you are still in your sins.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you John 15:14
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
You in your sinful state cannot even approach God.
In every case in the OT and in the NT the initiator has been God. Even then sin stood in the way. Therefore when God called, he put the one called in belief of what was to come, the faith, in order to deal with the one called. God, imputed his righteousness to the one called by the faith that was to come. The faith to come was the singular seed of Abraham, the seed to come to whom the promises were made. Read all of Gal. 3 Esp. verses 14, 16, 18,19 and 22-. Before the faith came. After the faith did come.
Paul calls this the faith of Abraham. It was the faith by which Abraham or anyone else called of God. believed. Example, which someone above alluded to without understanding of this.
Why was the beggar carried into the bosom of the Abraham?
The beggar, Lazarus was the servant of Abraham, Eliezer Greek Lazarus.
He was of the faith of Abraham. His name means "my God is help".
The both died in the faith to come by which they could be resurrected and given the gift of God, eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Here is, "the faith," to come that would change all that.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
The sin that separates has been addressed. V10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.> His resurrected life allows his blood to wash us from our sin removing us from the eternal penalty of death from sin, which the law showed us to be in, and allows us to be put under the grace of his resurrected life<. This is what we heard of by which we received the Spirit. The faith.[/QUOTE
Perchco, who is Jesus addressing in John 15?
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you John 15:14
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
You in your sinful state cannot even approach God.
In every case in the OT and in the NT the initiator has been God. Even then sin stood in the way. Therefore when God called, he put the one called in belief of what was to come, the faith, in order to deal with the one called. God, imputed his righteousness to the one called by the faith that was to come. The faith to come was the singular seed of Abraham, the seed to come to whom the promises were made. Read all of Gal. 3 Esp. verses 14, 16, 18,19 and 22-. Before the faith came. After the faith did come.
Paul calls this the faith of Abraham. It was the faith by which Abraham or anyone else called of God. believed. Example, which someone above alluded to without understanding of this.
Why was the beggar carried into the bosom of the Abraham?
The beggar, Lazarus was the servant of Abraham, Eliezer Greek Lazarus.
He was of the faith of Abraham. His name means "my God is help".
The both died in the faith to come by which they could be resurrected and given the gift of God, eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Here is, "the faith," to come that would change all that.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
The sin that separates has been addressed. V10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.> His resurrected life allows his blood to wash us from our sin removing us from the eternal penalty of death from sin, which the law showed us to be in, and allows us to be put under the grace of his resurrected life<. This is what we heard of by which we received the Spirit. The faith.[/QUOTE
Perchco, who is Jesus addressing in John 15?
The ones to whom the Spirit of truth would be given.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Here is a story of a man who was suppose to be dead Spiritually. He not only had a personal conversation with God it was also a spiritual conversation.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
Now If Cain was dead Spiritually and unable to hear or understand Spiritual things. Then how did this conversation take place? Since God is Spirit.
MB
Is there any Biblical evidence that Cain actually heard or understood anything Spiritual?
Is there any Biblical evidence that Cain actually heard or understood anything Spiritual?
I do not think so. I think Abel was the one called unto belief by God and Cain killed him was cast out and Seth was born and became the one called to being about the seed of promise.
quantumfaith
Active Member
The ones to whom the Spirit of truth would be given.
So the text is pretty clear that he is addressing his disciples but most scholars would suggest he further addressing the church to come?
So the text is pretty clear that he is addressing his disciples but most scholars would suggest he further addressing the church to come?
I just had a thought. Obviously we can choose to be water baptized. Can we choose to be baptized by the spirit?
convicted1
Guest
Brother Herald posted this in another thread, and I cut/copied it here:
Brother Herald, I have just shown you the inconsistencies of Calvinism. The word means dead, and I agree with that 100%. But you're sounding like a dead soul can sin, but not do good. How can a corpse do anything good or bad, if it's literally dead? Go to your local morgue, and find someone who died as a raging alcoholic. Someone whose every thought was engrossed by drinking it, and died from it. Go up to that corpse and offer him/her a shot of liquor and see if they'll take you up on it. Then, get your bible out, quote John 3:16, Romans 10:9,10, and Rev. 3:20, and 22:17, and see if you'll get a response. Spiritual death=seperation from God because of the great gulf(their sins) betwixt them.
Now, let us go to Luke 15, and the Prodical son. His father stated that his son was dead, and now he's alive. Was he a corpse rotting away in the hog lot feeding the swine? Nope. He was dead to his father because he took his inheritance and wasted it away. He was seperated from his father due to his rebellion/sinning. He was alive when the father had compassion, ran out and met him, fell up on his, and kissed him. He put a robe upon him, put sandals on his feet, put a ring in his hand, and told his servants to kill the fatted calf, because his dead son(seperated from his father because of his sins), was now alive(reconciled back to the father by his repentance).
I agree that being spiritually dead is synomous with being a sinner. Neither Brother MB nor I have stated anything to the contrary. It's when your shown the inconsistencies with pre-faith regeneration that you "flip-flop" and say "dead" mean a corpse, and then "dead" means being synomous with being a sinner.
When we were sinners, we were spiritually dead right up to the very nanosecond God saved us. We were still in a state of condemnation until He saved us, and took the burden of sin from off of us. We are not made alive to believe at a later date....even one second later, but rather, we are made alive because we believed in the only Begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth.
The word for "dead" in both passages is the Greek word nekros. It means dead as in a corpse. There is a reason Paul used that specific word. Someone who is dead is incapable of doing anything.
I guess I assumed that it would be understood that being spiritually dead means being unable to respond in a positive manner to the things of God. I apologize for not making myself clear. Hopefully I rectified that in my previous post.
Friend, the word means what it means. The sinner is spiritually dead just like a corpse is physically dead. The sinner still has a soul, but it is wholly enslaved to sin and is incapable of any righteous act. This is just simple exegesis of the text.
I would like those who disagree with me to deal with the text. What is the result of your exegesis of Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13?
Brother Herald, I have just shown you the inconsistencies of Calvinism. The word means dead, and I agree with that 100%. But you're sounding like a dead soul can sin, but not do good. How can a corpse do anything good or bad, if it's literally dead? Go to your local morgue, and find someone who died as a raging alcoholic. Someone whose every thought was engrossed by drinking it, and died from it. Go up to that corpse and offer him/her a shot of liquor and see if they'll take you up on it. Then, get your bible out, quote John 3:16, Romans 10:9,10, and Rev. 3:20, and 22:17, and see if you'll get a response. Spiritual death=seperation from God because of the great gulf(their sins) betwixt them.
Now, let us go to Luke 15, and the Prodical son. His father stated that his son was dead, and now he's alive. Was he a corpse rotting away in the hog lot feeding the swine? Nope. He was dead to his father because he took his inheritance and wasted it away. He was seperated from his father due to his rebellion/sinning. He was alive when the father had compassion, ran out and met him, fell up on his, and kissed him. He put a robe upon him, put sandals on his feet, put a ring in his hand, and told his servants to kill the fatted calf, because his dead son(seperated from his father because of his sins), was now alive(reconciled back to the father by his repentance).
You are making the same mistake as convicted1. Being spiritually dead is synonymous with being a sinner. A sinner is enslaved to sin as a matter of being. It is the sinners nature that keeps him enslaved to sin. And while the sinner is dead in his trespasses and sin, he still has a nature. That nature is a sin nature, and it is dead to righteousness.
I agree that being spiritually dead is synomous with being a sinner. Neither Brother MB nor I have stated anything to the contrary. It's when your shown the inconsistencies with pre-faith regeneration that you "flip-flop" and say "dead" mean a corpse, and then "dead" means being synomous with being a sinner.
When we were sinners, we were spiritually dead right up to the very nanosecond God saved us. We were still in a state of condemnation until He saved us, and took the burden of sin from off of us. We are not made alive to believe at a later date....even one second later, but rather, we are made alive because we believed in the only Begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Deuteronomy 30:
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
Romans 10:
5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
We are all dead in sin, there is no one different than another. I thank God that Jesus came to save sinners, so death is not what is stopping them or us.
When Jesus word come it is right there in you, you don't have to worry the scripture above tells you it isn't to far a dead person can't have it.
The problem is no faith in His word to do what it says it can do and the belief what you have is enough. You obey the Laws like the young rich ruler, your good will out weigh the bad. You must realize you are a sinner in need of Jesus, not Jesus needs you, He has the glory He once had and He don't need our help to get it. To have faith in Him and listen and learn from Him.
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
Romans 10:
5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
We are all dead in sin, there is no one different than another. I thank God that Jesus came to save sinners, so death is not what is stopping them or us.
When Jesus word come it is right there in you, you don't have to worry the scripture above tells you it isn't to far a dead person can't have it.
The problem is no faith in His word to do what it says it can do and the belief what you have is enough. You obey the Laws like the young rich ruler, your good will out weigh the bad. You must realize you are a sinner in need of Jesus, not Jesus needs you, He has the glory He once had and He don't need our help to get it. To have faith in Him and listen and learn from Him.
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convicted1 said:Brother Herald, I have just shown you the inconsistencies of Calvinism. The word means dead, and I agree with that 100%. But you're sounding like a dead soul can sin, but not do good. How can a corpse do anything good or bad, if it's literally dead?
The only reason this seems inconsistent to you is because you do not understand what is meant by "dead" in the passages quoted. "Dead" does not mean ceasing to exist. "Dead" means unable to the respond positively to the things of God. "Dead" means that the sinner's soul is, if you will, "alive", but in a sort of living death. This is absolutely consistent with the Doctrines of Grace, Spurgeon, Calvin, Bunyan, Augustine, and Paul. Now, you may disagree with this teaching, but it is important that you understand what I am saying or else you will disagree under a false premise.
Let me repeat this again for the sake of clarity. A sinner is dead spiritually. That does not mean he does not have a soul. He does. The sinner still has a soul, but that soul is dead to the things of God. Dead to righteous. That is what is meant by nekros in Eph. 2:1 and Col. 2:13. The sinner's soul is quite active in pursuing ungodliness; sin. So, why my referring to nekros as a corpse? Because that is what the word means. Nekros is the Greek word used to describe the condition of a dead body. Paul used it for effect, in order to accentuate the spiritual condition of a sinner.
I really hope this clears the matter up. Again, feel free to disagree, but at least do so without misunderstanding what I am trying to communicate.
convicted1
Guest
The only reason this seems inconsistent to you is because you do not understand what is meant by "dead" in the passages quoted. "Dead" does not mean ceasing to exist. "Dead" means unable to the respond positively to the things of God. "Dead" means that the sinner's soul is, if you will, "alive", but in a sort of living death. This is absolutely consistent with the Doctrines of Grace, Spurgeon, Calvin, Bunyan, Augustine, and Paul. Now, you may disagree with this teaching, but it is important that you understand what I am saying or else you will disagree under a false premise.
Let me repeat this again for the sake of clarity. A sinner is dead spiritually. That does not mean he does not have a soul. He does. The sinner still has a soul, but that soul is dead to the things of God. Dead to righteous. That is what is meant by nekros in Eph. 2:1 and Col. 2:13. The sinner's soul is quite active in pursuing ungodliness; sin. So, why my referring to nekros as a corpse? Because that is what the word means. Nekros is the Greek word used to describe the condition of a dead body. Paul used it for effect, in order to accentuate the spiritual condition of a sinner.
I really hope this clears the matter up. Again, feel free to disagree, but at least do so without misunderstanding what I am trying to communicate.
Thank you for the clarification, Brother Herald. I see where you are coming from. Eventhough I disagree, I now see what you were conveying. Thanks again.
The only reason this seems inconsistent to you is because you do not understand what is meant by "dead" in the passages quoted. "Dead" does not mean ceasing to exist. "Dead" means unable to the respond positively to the things of God. "Dead" means that the sinner's soul is, if you will, "alive", but in a sort of living death. This is absolutely consistent with the Doctrines of Grace, Spurgeon, Calvin, Bunyan, Augustine, and Paul. Now, you may disagree with this teaching, but it is important that you understand what I am saying or else you will disagree under a false premise.
Let me repeat this again for the sake of clarity. A sinner is dead spiritually. That does not mean he does not have a soul. He does. The sinner still has a soul, but that soul is dead to the things of God. Dead to righteous. That is what is meant by nekros in Eph. 2:1 and Col. 2:13. The sinner's soul is quite active in pursuing ungodliness; sin. So, why my referring to nekros as a corpse? Because that is what the word means. Nekros is the Greek word used to describe the condition of a dead body. Paul used it for effect, in order to accentuate the spiritual condition of a sinner.
I really hope this clears the matter up. Again, feel free to disagree, but at least do so without misunderstanding what I am trying to communicate.
And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3:6
Had they at that moment become, dead in trespasses and sins; and And dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, in that there was no longer a covenant relationship with God.
Was this passed on to all men because of this sinful act?
Do they have any power to reverse this? Unless God does something to reverse this will they, when they die be dead forever? Dying thou dost die. Gen 2:17
What would be required for this death forever to be reversed?
Was this the plan, even before the one above was created?
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. From 1 Peter 1:18-20 Rev 13:8
Well what do we have here? A sinless man/lamb dead as a door nail his soul in Hades, dead. Hope? What hope? Was there more to the plan?
He has been made to be sin who knew no sin and his dead soul in Hades, his dead corruptible body laying in a tomb. With only hope? Through faith died for our sins.
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 2:1 Promised at the same time or at about the same time it was or foreordained, the child born of woman, the Son of the Living God, the Lamb of God would die.
But God raised him from the dead: Acts 13:30 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; ) Gal. 1:1 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
That was the meaning of dead, IMHO.
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Just because the soul is spiritually dead does not mean the physical body must die. Spiritually dead means the soul is dead to righteousness; to the things of God. Man was created a spiritual creature:
[27]*So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
(Genesis 1:27 ESV)
Man was created a moral creature. His morality was without defect upon his creation. When Adam sinned his morality (i.e. his "nature") was corrupted. Adam, acting as our fair and just representative, handed down his corrupt nature to his posterity (us). As sinners we are guilty of a double blow; we are sinners because we are born in sin, and we are sinners because we sin. Sin places every man in a sort of living death. That is why Paul used the word nekros in Eph. 2:1 and Col. 2:13. Paul could have said, "you were fallen in your trespasses and sins", but he did not. He specifically used the word for physical death. Why is that? The answer is clear: the soul of man is dead to the things of God. 1 Corinthians 2:14 elucidates further:
[14]*The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV)
Who is the "natural man" in this passage? This man is the unregenerate man, the unsaved man. He does not accept spiritual truth because it seems foolish to him. Why? Because he is not able to understand them. Why? Because they are spiritually discerned. Why can he not understand spiritual truth? Because he is spiritually dead (c.f. Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13).
Even in hell man will still possess a soul. His soul will remain corrupt, evil, and unrepentant. In other words it will remain dead, along with a body that will be remain equally corrupt. Together they will experience an eternity separated from God's presence in eternal torment.
In summary, the sinner being spiritually dead does not mean the absence of a soul. It means his soul is dead to the things of God.
Adam died both physically and spritual, but the actual death as in bofdy passing away took much later, but his relationship/fellowship with God was immediately broken, and the Lord himself had to intervene to restore it back again!
Sin of Adam in the fall caused all of us afterwards to be born with physical death process already starting up at birth, and that we are also born spiritually estarnged from God!
The death and resurrection of jesus brought us fully back to God, as he reeds us body/soul/spirit!
And spiritual death does not mean a Zombie, its that we aree alive physically, but unable to have a relationship/fellowship with god until spiritually reborn again!
How so? Oh, it shoots the pre-faith regeneration in the foot.
Don't disagree with this one iota. But, Jesus wasn't talking about the resurrection here in verses 24,25.....He speaks about that in verses 28,29. Verses 24,25 are talking about those who are dead in their sins hearing God speaking/drawing them in their sinful state.....
Hearing goes right alongside regeneration. If they don't hear God, they won't be regenerated. Hearing causes regeneration to take place. Regeneration=Salvation.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
The unregenerated sinner can hear God. I was a sinner that heard God for years. When God saved me, I was lost right up to the very nanosecond before He saved me, an underserving sinner. He gave me life the very moment He save me, and not one nanosecond before.
I did not say the unregenerate sinner cannot hear God.
I am saying that he is dead IN SINS. The only thing he can do morally is SIN.
I proved that with a bunch of Bible that you ignored.
psalms109:31
Active Member
We who are believers are dead to sin, but alive in Christ. We turned away from our self,separated our self from our sin. It is a good thing to be dead to sin and alive in Christ. A corpse can't suffer it can't be tormented, but to those who have not turned to Christ is simple dead in sin and not a alive separated from life for eternity. They have no life in them. God by a word can make the dead alive if you don't believe that you will remain dead. We are born again by the enduring word of God. If it is not in you and you have turned away from it you have no life.
Regeneration before faith the faith that come from the word of Jesus and the word about Him is simple ridiculous. God by His word spoke the whole earth into existence.
Regeneration before faith the faith that come from the word of Jesus and the word about Him is simple ridiculous. God by His word spoke the whole earth into existence.
Tom Butler
New Member
I'm coming to this thread late. It has been a good discussion of a subject that I find is not easy to wrap one's mind around.
Here's a scripture passage to throw into the mix:
Romans 8:7-8
This is supported by Ephesians 2:2
I understand the view that all are given that ability. But these verses argue that at some point before they were given it, they did not have it. They also suggest that hostility and inability go hand in hand.
If that is the case, quickening and enabling should eliminate the hostility. But even if all are enabled, it is obvious that all are not quickened, since all do not respond in faith.
That's why the view that regeneration precedes saving faith makes sense to me.
Here's a scripture passage to throw into the mix:
Romans 8:7-8
This passage seem clear to me. The fleshly mind is hostile to God. Not only does it not want to submit, it can't want to. This strongly suggests that both the ability and desire to submit must be given. We call it enabling or quickening by the Holy Spirit.7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it (ESV)
This is supported by Ephesians 2:2
So, the analogy is consistent. The mind, dead in sin, is innately hostile to spiritual things; and is unable to do otherwise on its own until given the ability.And you hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins.
I understand the view that all are given that ability. But these verses argue that at some point before they were given it, they did not have it. They also suggest that hostility and inability go hand in hand.
If that is the case, quickening and enabling should eliminate the hostility. But even if all are enabled, it is obvious that all are not quickened, since all do not respond in faith.
That's why the view that regeneration precedes saving faith makes sense to me.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
God in those passage is not making an appeal to the flesh, but the inner being the free agency to not trust our flesh but His word like He has been preparing us to do throughout His word for us not to lean on our own understanding but to trust in the Lord. The flesh is constantly telling us not to come and making all these excusing, but praise God that Jesus came to save us heathens us sinners to come just the way we are dead in sin and He will change us.
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