Some Standing Here

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Incredible Bible Gymnastics!

BB you are not even getting what the scripture is saying--i know that all so called disciples were not all truely disciples(only those who continue in his word are true)the fact is that Some of the disciples who he was talking too at that present day would not die bodily and would be alive bodily when jesus came again--that is what jesus was saying

HW.....I find the preterist claims to be incredible bible gymnastics of the first order. Like Thomas15 said...in order to come to the preterist view you have to literally ignore possibly 100's of other details of bible prophecy and all the sound rules of Biblical Eschatology. When Jesus made the statements he made in Matt. 16 & 23, He was addressing law-keeping Jews in the closing hours of that dispensation and He was speaking to them in the prophetic and national sense about things that would come to pass in the future (you "get that" if you "rightly divide" these passages "in context" with the testimony of the rest of scripture regarding the things of the end-times) and like everything else in the end-times, you can't...as a matter of fact you are prohibited from SETTING A DATE for that (see Mark 13). Now imagine if you will, now that Israel is re-established (1948) and an end-times Temple (which is now in the planning stages in Israel and has been for some time now) has been reconstructed. As a matter of fact they are already in the process of reproducing the priestly garments that the NEXT High Priest will wear as well as many of the implements (golden lavers,candlesticks,etc.) of the temple. (Interesting huh?)(check out the Temple Institute's website sometime) Anyway, imagine if you will that the Temple is standing and a modern-day High Priest is serving in the end-times Temple (which will be under control of the anti-Christ at that hour in the 2nd half of the tribulation) on the day that Christ comes in the clouds with His armies (that's US!) to fight the battle of Armageddon and then set up His Kingdom on this (currently existing) earth for 1000 years. All this fits with established Bible Prophecy. The events of AD 70 were simply the end of the end of any form of Temple-based worship and the beginning of their national dispersion that lasted until recent times for the Nation of Israel. Remember they are still living in spiritual-blindness even in our current day. They are (in their current blindness and unbelief AS A NATION and as individual Jews) still awaiting the 1st arrival of their Messiah. We as Christians are awaiting His triumphal 2nd bodily reappearing...what a day that will be. By the way...all this has nothing to do with the "catching away" which Bible believers of our day refer to more commonly as "the Rapture"(1 Thes. 4:13-18) which will happen prior to all of that! What a wonderful day that will be! Until then...let us as believers live in light of the admonition of Titus 2:11-15 denying the our lusts and those of this world and seeking to live godly lives so we can be a testimony to this world of God's grace. Jesus is coming soon...."even so, come Lord Jesus!"raying:

Bro.Greg

 

[HisWitness]

The whole preterist concept is built on the idea referred to as Covenant Theology which sees the Bible in terms of two or three covenants (works, grace and redemption). Covenant theology is the back bone of preterism. Since covenant theology is not a concept that the Bible teaches, the preterist argument is moot.

people are afraid to deal with even the basic scriptures that plainly teach of jesus returning in the disciples day and life.

Jesus plainly said that he was sent to the LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL(jews only)jews in the 4 gospels are to whom Jesus adressed and not people thousands of years into the future--When Jesus even sent out the 12 disciples,he sent them ONLY to the jews--not to gentiles.

So you cant relate anything in the 4 gospels to thousands of years into the future when the Lord himself said he was sent to jews only at that time.

 

[HisWitness]

HW.....I find the preterist claims to be incredible bible gymnastics of the first order. Like Thomas15 said...in order to come to the preterist view you have to literally ignore possibly 100's of other details of bible prophecy and all the sound rules of Biblical Eschatology. When Jesus made the statements he made in Matt. 16 & 23, He was addressing law-keeping Jews in the closing hours of that dispensation and He was speaking to them in the prophetic and national sense about things that would come to pass in the future (you "get that" if you "rightly divide" these passages "in context" with the testimony of the rest of scripture regarding the things of the end-times) and like everything else in the end-times, you can't...as a matter of fact you are prohibited from SETTING A DATE for that (see Mark 13). Now imagine if you will, now that Israel is re-established (1948) and an end-times Temple (which is now in the planning stages in Israel and has been for some time now) has been reconstructed. As a matter of fact they are already in the process of reproducing the priestly garments that the NEXT High Priest will wear as well as many of the implements (golden lavers,candlesticks,etc.) of the temple. (Interesting huh?)(check out the Temple Institute's website sometime) Anyway, imagine if you will that the Temple is standing and a modern-day High Priest is serving in the end-times Temple (which will be under control of the anti-Christ at that hour in the 2nd half of the tribulation) on the day that Christ comes in the clouds with His armies (that's US!) to fight the battle of Armageddon and then set up His Kingdom on this (currently existing) earth for 1000 years. All this fits with established Bible Prophecy. The events of AD 70 were simply the end of the end of any form of Temple-based worship and the beginning of their national dispersion that lasted until recent times for the Nation of Israel. Remember they are still living in spiritual-blindness even in our current day. They are (in their current blindness and unbelief AS A NATION and as individual Jews) still awaiting the 1st arrival of their Messiah. We as Christians are awaiting His triumphal 2nd bodily reappearing...what a day that will be. By the way...all this has nothing to do with the "catching away" which Bible believers of our day refer to more commonly as "the Rapture"(1 Thes. 4:13-18) which will happen prior to all of that! What a wonderful day that will be! Until then...let us as believers live in light of the admonition of Titus 2:11-15 denying the our lusts and those of this world and seeking to live godly lives so we can be a testimony to this world of God's grace. Jesus is coming soon...."even so, come Lord Jesus!"raying:

Bro.Greg

yes it was future to them whom he was talking unto(i agree) but it would happen accordingly as jesus said in their lifetime.

The 4 gospels contain history that was spoken and happened to the jews--not unto us 2k years later jesus siad he was sent to the jews only-Jesus even sent his 12 to the Jews only.

false tradition blinds men to seeing the truth of the scriptures.

 

[DHK]

people are afraid to deal with even the basic scriptures that plainly teach of jesus returning in the disciples day and life.

So you cant relate anything in the 4 gospels to thousands of years into the future when the Lord himself said he was sent to jews only at that time.

Practice what you preach.
"People (like HisWitness) are afraid to deal with even the basic Scriptures that plainly teach of Jesus returning..."

Deal with them, then!
Here they are:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I have challenged you with these verses before only to be met by either sarcasm (non-debate) or complete silence (ignoring the matter).

If you have the answers then clearly explain and document where and when these events took place.
What was the sign of the appearing of the Son of man?
Who saw it and when? Document it.

When did he come in the clouds of heaven with power and glory?
When? Who saw Him? Where is it recorded?

When were his angels sent with the sound of a great trumpet?
Who saw the angels?
Who heard the trumpet? Where is your evidence?

When were all the elect gathered together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other? Where did it happen?
Europe? Asia? Palestine? Africa?

Even in the time of Esther the known nations of that day were at least this much:

Esther 8:9 Then were the king's scribes called at that time in the third month, that is, the month Sivan, on the three and twentieth day thereof; and it was written according to all that Mordecai commanded unto the Jews, and to the lieutenants, and the deputies and rulers of the provinces which are from India unto Ethiopia, an hundred twenty and seven provinces, unto every province according to the writing thereof, and unto every people after their language, and to the Jews according to their writing, and according to their language.

From India to Ethiopia--all the elect--it must have been such a momentous event that it is recorded somewhere in history. Where is the evidence?
It is sad when people don't know their Bible well enough that they can't explain the Scriptures.

 

[thomas15]

people are afraid to deal with even the basic scriptures that plainly teach of jesus returning in the disciples day and life.

Jesus plainly said that he was sent to the LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL(jews only)jews in the 4 gospels are to whom Jesus adressed and not people thousands of years into the future--When Jesus even sent out the 12 disciples,he sent them ONLY to the jews--not to gentiles.

So you cant relate anything in the 4 gospels to thousands of years into the future when the Lord himself said he was sent to jews only at that time.

You refuse to see the whole Bible as instruction from Jehovah. Instead you are looking at one small section and forcing your views and thinking to fit. This is why you have to fluff off 100s of passages of scripture as "allegory" or "spiritual". This is of course your right and privledge but that doesn't make it sound doctrine, which the Bible tells us we should have.

 

[asterisktom]

Also, the preterist should, if they have Biblical truth on their side, should be willing to offer an explanation as to why the second coming was missed by like everyone on the planet for almost 2000 years.

The second coming was "missed" the same way the 1st-century Temple being raised up was missed. The Temple - Christ (John 2) - was invisible. The Jews were thinking only of a visible temple.

Likewise many Christians today think only of a visible coming, not considering other scripture-fulfilling interpretation.

 

[Luke2427]

:thumbs::thumbs:

Yes, this was one of the basic passages ( one of several) that finally moved me over to taking Preterism more seriously. I used to also be a nay-sayer - as proven by the ABC Bible archives of ten years ago - but the persistent witnessing of courteous Preterists finally had a good effect.

Because there are FULL preterists who enter these discussions, it would be helpful to clarify if you are partial or full.

 

[Luke2427]

This is really very simple to understand without demanding that Jesus returned in 70 A.D. or claiming it is referring to the Transfiguration. (FWIW, I agree, it is not referring to the Transfiguration.)

--
John 8:51-59 (NASB)
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.


John 11:25-26 (NASB)
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”


1 Timothy 1:8-10 (NASB)
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.


2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us…

--
Those who are God's people will never taste death, although their physical body may die. Those who are with the Lord are conscious and aware of God and what is going on in human affairs (the great cloud of witnesses).

I will never taste death because of Christ, just as some who heard Jesus speak those words that day have not, and will not, taste death. This is not an obscure teaching in the scriptures, although it is relatively unknown coming from the pulpits these days.

That seems to me to be hermeneutical gymnastics.

Jesus "tasted death for every man" according to Hebrews. Are you contending that we should conclude that he did not die physically on the cross?

I know you are not but I hope you see the point.

There is nothing IN THE CONTEXT of that passage that indicates that Jesus is speaking of people who will never die in a spiritual sense. That is true just like there is nothing to make us think that "tasted death" in Hebrews does not refer to physical death.

We don't get to import ideas from other passages to suit us. We apply them when the text indicates that they are applicable. There is nothing in the Matthew 24 text that indicates what you are trying to get it to say.

 

[asterisktom]

HW.....I find the preterist claims to be incredible bible gymnastics of the first order. Like Thomas15 said...in order to come to the preterist view you have to literally ignore possibly 100's of other details of bible prophecy

Translation: 100's of details that are interpreted in a woodenly literal fashion. If Preterists don't agree with these literal interpretations - as opposed to following Christ's oft-repeated example of spiritual interpretation - they are "ignoring" them.

and all the sound rules of Biblical Eschatology.

Translation: The rules established recently by modern scholarship to agree with modern presuppositions, one example being the "Golden rule of Interpretation".

"Golden" is actually a good name for it. Not because it is such value as gold, but because (like Golden wedding anniversaries) this rule came about around 50 years ago.

When Jesus made the statements he made in Matt. 16 & 23, He was addressing law-keeping Jews in the closing hours of that dispensation and He was speaking to them in the prophetic and national sense about things that would come to pass in the future

You have no proof of this so-called "national sense". At this point you are severely nuancing Christ's words.

(you "get that" if you "rightly divide" these passages "in context" with the testimony of the rest of scripture regarding the things of the end-times)

Rather, in context with our eschatological assumptions. A proper study of that phrase "rightly dividing" would also be helpful.

and like everything else in the end-times, you can't...as a matter of fact you are prohibited from SETTING A DATE for that (see Mark 13).

This is not date-setting. Look more carefully at your Mark 13.

Now imagine if you will, now that Israel is re-established (1948)

John of Japan has wisely observed (and I agree on this point) something to the effect that imagination and hermeneutics don't mix.

and an end-times Temple (which is now in the planning stages in Israel and has been for some time now) has been reconstructed. As a matter of fact they are already in the process of reproducing the priestly garments that the NEXT High Priest will wear as well as many of the implements (golden lavers,candlesticks,etc.) of the temple.

...

etc.

Bro.Greg

No need going into the rest of this. We are told in Hebrews (apparently a much ignored book nowadays) that future priests and temple will no longer be valid.

This gets repetitive.

 

[asterisktom]

Because there are FULL preterists who enter these discussions, it would be helpful to clarify if you are partial or full.

Fair enough. I am a full preterist.

 

[DHK]

The second coming was "missed" the same way the 1st-century Temple being raised up was missed. The Temple - Christ (John 2) - was invisible. The Jews were thinking only of a visible temple.

Likewise many Christians today think only of a visible coming, not considering other scripture-fulfilling interpretation.

When Jesus comes, (not the rapture, but the actual Second Advent), then every eye shall see him; He will come with the glory of His Father and the holy angels, the saints of God will follow him. It will be such a blinding and glorious event that absolutely no one will be able to miss it even if they try. How could such an event not be recorded in history? How could it be "missed" by anyone, much less by all of mankind? I fail to see how anyone can take such a position.

Concerning the Temple, I am not quite certain what you are referring to.
Here is what it says in John 2:

John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
--Note that the temple in existence at that time took 46 years to build.
Here is what Barnes says about that temple (Herod's Temple)

Forty and six years, &c. The temple in which they then were was that which was commonly called the second temple, built after the return of the Jews from Babylon. Cmt. on Mt 21:12. This temple Herod the Great commenced repairing, or began to rebuild, in the eighteenth year of his reign--that is, sixteen years before the birth of Christ (Jos. Ant., b. xv. 1). The main body of the temple he completed in nine years and a half (Jos. Ant., xv. 5, 6), yet the temple, with its outbuildings, was not entirely complete in the time of our Saviour. Herod continued to ornament it and to perfect it even till the time of Agrippa (Jos. Ant., b. xx. ch. viii.  11). As Herod began to rebuild the temple sixteen years before the birth of Jesus, and as what is here mentioned happened in the thirtieth year of the age of Jesus, so the time which had been occupied in it was forty-six years.

Herod's Temple was the temple of the first century, and destroyed in 70 A.D. as you know. Thus I don't understand your comment about the temple.

 

[asterisktom]

When Jesus comes, (not the rapture, but the actual Second Advent), then every eye shall see him; He will come with the glory of His Father and the holy angels, the saints of God will follow him. It will be such a blinding and glorious event that absolutely no one will be able to miss it even if they try. How could such an event not be recorded in history? How could it be "missed" by anyone, much less by all of mankind? I fail to see how anyone can take such a position.

Concerning the Temple, I am not quite certain what you are referring to.
Here is what it says in John 2:

John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
--Note that the temple in existence at that time took 46 years to build.
Here is what Barnes says about that temple (Herod's Temple)

Herod's Temple was the temple of the first century, and destroyed in 70 A.D. as you know. Thus I don't understand your comment about the temple.

Christ was referring to the Temple of His Body. It was not a visible temple, made of human hands, that Christ was going to raise up in three days.

Both the raising of this temple and the Parousia were invisible events, though testified by physical testimonies. Those testimonies are, respectively, the empty tomb and the destroyed first temple in AD 70.

Both of these invisible but crucial spiritual events were signposted by physical evidences.

 

[thomas15]

Christ was referring to the Temple of His Body. It was not a visible temple, made of human hands, that Christ was going to raise up in three days.

Both the raising of this temple and the Parousia were invisible events, though testified by physical testimonies. Those testimonies are, respectively, the empty tomb and the destroyed first temple in AD 70.

Both of these invisible but crucial spiritual events were signposted by physical evidences.

All of the Bibles in my collection state in:

The Gospel of John 1st chapter that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

*tom, are you claiming that Jesus was invisable?

1 John ch. 1:1-3 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us."

*tom, you somehow see an invisable Jesus here?

Acts ch 1 :9-10 "After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”"


*tom, all of this looks visable to me, but apparently you believe this to be invisable? And yet somehow you have managed to discovered some long lost spiritual insights that escaped humanity for almost 2000 years. Nothing in the history books support your theology, none of the great expositors or preachers of the Word spoke of it for 1900+ years but *tom dude and a few select saints posting on the internet has uncovered literally the best kept secret of christendom. And they owe it all to their non-literal interpretation of the Word of God.Wow.

 

[kyredneck]

The second coming was "missed" the same way the 1st-century Temple being raised up was missed. The Temple - Christ (John 2) - was invisible. The Jews were thinking only of a visible temple.

Likewise many Christians today think only of a visible coming, not considering other scripture-fulfilling interpretation.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Because there are FULL preterists who enter these discussions, it would be helpful to clarify if you are partial or full.

Fair enough. I am a full preterist.

So Luke, is Tom now like a leper?

 

[Bronconagurski]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:





So Luke, is Tom now like a leper?

To me, full preterists aren't lepers, there are just people wandering around without a clear mission or any idea what comes next according to Scripture. I asked Tom how that evangelism is affected by what you believe about A.D. 70 and he never answered. Does anyone that is a full preterist have the answer?

Furthermore, the dispensational view is more clear now than any other time in history. Things are deteriorating to the point of no return unless something very drastic happens. Enter the anti-christ and the rapture. Israel is a nation again and war is just a matter of time. Russia is linked to Iran, just like Ezekiel predicted, along with other countries. It's coming, and no amount of belief in A.D. 70 can stop it. Better get ready and get our friends and families saved, cause it's coming.

 

[thomas15]

To me, full preterists aren't lepers, there are just people wandering around without a clear mission or any idea what comes next according to Scripture. I asked Tom how that evangelism is affected by what you believe about A.D. 70 and he never answered. Does anyone that is a full preterist have the answer?

Furthermore, the dispensational view is more clear now than any other time in history. Things are deteriorating to the point of no return unless something very drastic happens. Enter the anti-christ and the rapture. Israel is a nation again and war is just a matter of time. Russia is linked to Iran, just like Ezekiel predicted, along with other countries. It's coming, and no amount of belief in A.D. 70 can stop it. Better get ready and get our friends and families saved, cause it's coming.

What you are doing Bronconagurski is a classic case of stating the obvious. The New Testament teaches that believers are to study the word to show that we are an approved workmen. The New Testament also tells us that we are to have correct doctrine. And the NT informs us that Scripture is intended to offer instruction and reproof. It is the very Word of God. Jesus, the Word that became flesh said that every little jot and tittle of scripture will come to pass. That means that every little minute detail of prophecy will happen.

But the preterist doesn't believe very much of this. Somehow, they have recieved advanced enlightment and discernemt lost for 19+ centuries.

Speaking as a pre-mil, I find it alot easier talking to non-believers about end time events knowing that there are preterist out there telling others (with I assume a straight face) that an invisable Jesus returned in secret 2000 years ago and set up his kingdom. Almost all of this comes without Biblical backup or historical evidence.

 

[DHK]

Christ was referring to the Temple of His Body. It was not a visible temple, made of human hands, that Christ was going to raise up in three days.

Both the raising of this temple and the Parousia were invisible events, though testified by physical testimonies. Those testimonies are, respectively, the empty tomb and the destroyed first temple in AD 70.

Both of these invisible but crucial spiritual events were signposted by physical evidences.

It was the unsaved Jews that answered about the temple being 46 years old.
But just a couple verse later we read:

John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

His disciples understood that he was speaking of his body, albeit later on.
The Jews rejected Christ as Messiah and the kingdom that was offered them.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Even after his resurrection some of his disciples were expecting him to set up his kingdom, but once he ascended up into heaven that matter was put to rest once and for all.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

No one would know the time of his coming; no one would know when he would come to set up his kingdom. That was not for them to know. It is not for us to know. Christ has not returned yet. When he does he will set up his Kingdom, and not until then. He has made that clear to us.

I agree that the parousia WILL be an invisible event. But one must think it through. If it happened at 70 A.D., or at any time before, then what would have been the consequences?
No matter what the date of the writing of Revelation, it is a historical fact that John was alive in the 90's and probably died in the second century. Was he left behind?
If all the believers were taken up during the parousia (rapture as I understand it), then Christianity would have died out right then and there. No one would have been left to carry it on. There would be no witnesses; no one to evangelize.
How do you account for these things.

In 1Cor.15, we have one of the greatest polemics ever written by the apostle Paul on the resurrection. He states "if there be no resurrection then our faith is in vain." We still look forward to the resurrection (not Christ's resurrection, but ours). We will rise from the dead, as Christ rose from the dead. That is the only logical conclusion as Christ is called the firstborn of the resurrection. Why would he be called the firstborn if there would be none to follow?

 

[HisWitness]

out of all these discussions the verse of the High priest has not once been dealt with.

Are you who are rejecting this view trying to slip around the actual verse in the OP ?

How about discussing the verse where the High Priest of jesus day would SEE Jesus COMING back in THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN ????

 

[DHK]

How about discussing the verse where the High Priest of jesus day would SEE Jesus COMING back in THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN ????

Your answer is here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1948030&postcount=24

But you are the one that won't deal with it.

 

[asterisktom]

All of the Bibles in my collection state in:

The Gospel of John 1st chapter that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

*tom, are you claiming that Jesus was invisable?

1 John ch. 1:1-3 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us."

*tom, you somehow see an invisable Jesus here?

Acts ch 1 :9-10 "After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”"


*tom, all of this looks visable to me, but apparently you believe this to be invisable? And yet somehow you have managed to discovered some long lost spiritual insights that escaped humanity for almost 2000 years. Nothing in the history books support your theology, none of the great expositors or preachers of the Word spoke of it for 1900+ years but *tom dude and a few select saints posting on the internet has uncovered literally the best kept secret of christendom. And they owe it all to their non-literal interpretation of the Word of God.Wow.

Wow is right. You totally misunderstood my point. Read again what I wrote.

Or put your malicious slant to it ... again.