Jesus said that ALL the father gave him WILL be raised up by him at end of days, confirmed by Jude...
IF jesus thought it was that way, isn't it?
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Regaining salvation, once lost.
- Thread starter 12strings
- Start date
Jesus said that ALL the father gave him WILL be raised up by him at end of days, confirmed by Jude...
IF jesus thought it was that way, isn't it?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
I totally disagree with this. It makes no sense, scripturally or otherwise.
No, it's the Biblical position. The one in 1 Cor 5:5 had lost his 'temporal salvation' but retained his 'eternal salvation'. It holds true even with the type; even after all they had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (murmuring, idolatry, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to say:
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
OSAS begins with regeneration. Once born of God, always a child of God. God cannot and will not ever send one of His children to hell. This would disgrace and shame the cross of Christ and Jesus Christ whom paid such a high price for God's elect. God deals with His disobedient children however He deems necessary, and this would work out differently with each child.
The scripture allows for false converts and even allows for false disciples who "believe for awhile" but turn away for numerous reasons (Four soils). They have not a saving faith, for they have not truly called upon the name of the Lord in humilty to be converted. The true disciples will continue following Jesus Christ til the end. "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me".
The scripture allows for false converts and even allows for false disciples who "believe for awhile" but turn away for numerous reasons (Four soils). They have not a saving faith, for they have not truly called upon the name of the Lord in humilty to be converted. The true disciples will continue following Jesus Christ til the end. "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me".
God has predestined ALL that are saved to become gloried in the end, NONE shall be lost, for If it is the Will of God that none saved are lost, what can undo the power of God to keep us secured in him?
IF you see, we can, is our will greater than His?
paul stated that the love of Money, desire to get rich quick, was the ruin of many saved person, a pitfall to avoid, didn't he?
Alive in Christ
New Member
This was posted...
The responce was...
On the contrary, it makes complete and certain sense...as it should, considering it is Gods docrine.
The responce was...
On the contrary, it makes complete and certain sense...as it should, considering it is Gods docrine.
Wait, Your saying what you describe here is the biblical position, but is not the PB position? :smilewinkgrin:
BTW, thanks for the clarification. I was just asking becasue I assume some reading here will think your previous posts were refering to losing one's eternal salvation.
You have to understand what the will of God means and keep it in context with human responsibility.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!" (Matt 23:37)
Move pas tthe question of god sovereignty contrasted with man will, and please focus on the truth that regardless the method used by God to save a sinner, he has predestined them to become a glorified saint in the end, and will nOT have any really saved get dropped out somewhere in the salvation cycle from start to finished state!
have to take this question all in context, for if shipwreaked actually means loss of salvation, does Paul mean that "falling from grace" meant they would lose salvation as per Galatians too?
24 And the Lord`s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will. 2 Tim 2
Cute.
The Primitive Baptist position on the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints is biblically sound.
BY THE WAY; the theoretical premise you espouse in the OP is an old one, you know, there's really nothing new or original on your part here, you're kinda sorta parroting established protocol in doing battle with those who oppose 'OSAS', which is why you posted the thread on this forum, 'Other Denominations'.
Strain YOUR brain and answer this; why did God grant repentance to the one in 1 Cor 5:5, but there was to be no repentance for those in Heb 6:4-6?
25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will. 2 Tim 2
Cute.
The Primitive Baptist position on the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints is biblically sound.
BY THE WAY; the theoretical premise you espouse in the OP is an old one, you know, there's really nothing new or original on your part here, you're kinda sorta parroting established protocol in doing battle with those who oppose 'OSAS', which is why you posted the thread on this forum, 'Other Denominations'.
Strain YOUR brain and answer this; why did God grant repentance to the one in 1 Cor 5:5, but there was to be no repentance for those in Heb 6:4-6?
Those described in hebrews were same class as those talked of by John as being among them for awhile, but not of them, and departed! fake cjhrsitians mimicing real thing!
Of course none of the Elect will be lost. Only God knows the true elect ones, He knows the end, we do not. Those who intelectually believe for awhile and then turn away prove in themselves that they are not of the elect. Those who believe from the heart which follow Christ til the end are proven to be the elect.
You bring up God's sovereignty. I hear this all the time in these debates as though God giving man a choice goes against God's sovereignty or God's will. It does not for it is God's sovern will to allow mankind to choose Him or reject Him.
What I hear from the TULIP camp is that Man has absolutely no ability to choose God UNLESS God first regenerates him which in effect saves him revealing him as one of the elect, thus giving the man no choice at all in the matter. And therefore those who God does not regenerate are also given no choice in the matter. Yet we have scripture upon scripture where God PLEADS with men to CHOOSE Him!
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!" (Matt 23:37)
If TULIP were true, it would read "ye COULD not!
Wow, JesusFan/Dechasher1/Yeshua1 has confidently spoken and passed judgement on those to whom the epistle to the Hebrews was written, and all without an ounce or iota of scripture to back it up.
Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3:12
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???????
4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6
So what then disqualifies one from salvation in your pov? Is it unbelief alone?
I simply posted it here because I assumed most baptists would hold to OSAS, so the conversation would not get anywhere...but no one has really responded affirmatively here either.
Good question...I don't know. It does say he "may" give them repentance...not that he definitely will.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
kyredneck, would you be so kind as to explain your position on the possibility of a true believer making shipwreck of his/her faith and thus losing or forfeiting salvation? It seems from your posts that you believe this can happen, but then I read in your profile that you are a Primitive Baptist, and I assumed all PB's believed in OSAS/eternal security.
So, I am kinda confused. Can you help me out here?
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. Heb 10
Do you think the context here is referring to just 'any ol' sin'? You know, like lying or stealing or fornication etc.? Or is it something specific to the audience at hand?
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