Regaining salvation, once lost.

[kyredneck]

So what then disqualifies one from salvation in your pov? Is it unbelief alone?

In your pov, is salvation synonymous with regeneration i.e., the birth from above?

In my pov the two are not the same; or another way to put it is there is an eternal aspect to our salvation that we are totally passive in and can never lose, and a temporal aspect to our salvation that we are very much active in and responsible for, our belief and obedience has everything to do with it.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation... Ps 51:12

After falling into some heinious sin, was David here asking to be restored as a child of God, or to be restored the joy of being a child of God? I say he never lost his standing as a child.

11 As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3

You understand that Moses and Aaron, because of their unbelief, were included among those that God refused entrance into the land don't you?

kyredneck, would you be so kind as to explain your position on the possibility of a true believer making shipwreck of his/her faith and thus losing or forfeiting salvation? It seems from your posts that you believe this can happen, but then I read in your profile that you are a Primitive Baptist, and I assumed all PB's believed in OSAS/eternal security.

So, I am kinda confused. Can you help me out here?

TH I'm kinda short on time, don't mean to cut you short, but does the above answer your question?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

In your pov, is salvation synonymous with regeneration i.e., the birth from above?

In my pov the two are not the same; or another way to put it is there is an eternal aspect to our salvation that we are totally passive in and can never lose, and a temporal aspect to our salvation that we are very much active in and responsible for, our belief and obedience has everything to do with it.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation... Ps 51:12

After falling into some heinious sin, was David here asking to be restored as a child of God, or to be restored the joy of being a child of God? I say he never lost his standing as a child.

11 As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3

You understand that Moses and Aaron, because of their unbelief, were included among those that God refused entrance into the land don't you?



TH I'm kinda short on time, don't mean to cut you short, but does the above answer your question?

Kind of. I understand better now your position. But if you want to elaborate further, I wouldn't mind.

 

[steaver]

In your pov, is salvation synonymous with regeneration i.e., the birth from above?

In my pov the two are not the same; or another way to put it is there is an eternal aspect to our salvation that we are totally passive in and can never lose, and a temporal aspect to our salvation that we are very much active in and responsible for, our belief and obedience has everything to do with it.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation... Ps 51:12

After falling into some heinious sin, was David here asking to be restored as a child of God, or to be restored the joy of being a child of God? I say he never lost his standing as a child.

11 As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3

You understand that Moses and Aaron, because of their unbelief, were included among those that God refused entrance into the land don't you?



TH I'm kinda short on time, don't mean to cut you short, but does the above answer your question?

Regeneration is Salvation. As of David's cry, joy of salvation is not the issue here. Your not saying there are two salvations like the false doctrine called ME (Melinnel Exclusion) are you? Like a salvation of the spirit and a salvation of the soul? This doctrine has been deemed heresy here on the BB and is not allowed to be argued as acceptable pov.

 

[12strings]

Kind of. I understand better now your position. But if you want to elaborate further, I wouldn't mind.

(steaver)Your not saying there are two salvations like the false doctrine called ME (Melinnel Exclusion) are you? Like a salvation of the spirit and a salvation of the soul? This doctrine has been deemed heresy here on the BB and is not allowed to be argued as acceptable pov.

(KYREDNECK)In my pov the two are not the same; or another way to put it is there is an eternal aspect to our salvation that we are totally passive in and can never lose, and a temporal aspect to our salvation that we are very much active in and responsible for, our belief and obedience has everything to do with it.

The Primitive Baptist view of salvation is not millenial exclusion, or a separation of soul and spirit, rather it is the belief that the elect are regenerated and can never lose their ETERNAL life...their obedience, and even belief in Christ has nothing to do with it. However, there is a temporal aspect of salvation (here in this life) that comes with belief & obedience. One can "fall away" from God, abandon belief in Christ, lose the temporary benifits of salvation in this life, stay that way, die that way, but be ultimately saved in the end. (KY can correct any mistakes here)

 

[kyredneck]

12strings, that's actually a fair synopsis you gave...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1803103#post1803103

 

[kyredneck]

.....there is a temporal aspect of salvation (here in this life) that comes with belief & obedience....

Which probably I've done a lousy job of conveying the question, these passages in Hebrews concerning unbelief and falling away; 'I sware in my wrath they shall not enter into my rest', 'impossible to renew them to repentance', 'there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sin but a certain expectation of judgement', 'it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God', 'the LORD shall judge His people', etc.; do these judgments carry eternal consequences, i.e. eternal punishment in hell? I think one is forcing the passages to say that it does.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

The Primitive Baptist view of salvation is not millenial exclusion, or a separation of soul and spirit, rather it is the belief that the elect are regenerated and can never lose their ETERNAL life...their obedience, and even belief in Christ has nothing to do with it. However, there is a temporal aspect of salvation (here in this life) that comes with belief & obedience. One can "fall away" from God, abandon belief in Christ, lose the temporary benifits of salvation in this life, stay that way, die that way, but be ultimately saved in the end. (KY can correct any mistakes here)

Okay, thank you very much. I see what is being said now. I don't agree with it, but I understand it, and it is consistent, I think, with Primitive Baptist way of viewing salvation.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Which probably I've done a lousy job of conveying the question, these passages in Hebrews concerning unbelief and falling away; 'I sware in my wrath they shall not enter into my rest', 'impossible to renew them to repentance', 'there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sin but a certain expectation of judgement', 'it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God', 'the LORD shall judge His people', etc.; do these judgments carry eternal consequences, i.e. eternal punishment in hell? I think one is forcing the passages to say that it does.

Thanks, friend. I don't agree with your conclusion, but I admire consistency, and you are consistent in a way that others I've seen stating their views about this are not.

In fact, if I could just accept "TULIP" and no musical instruments in church, I might convert to Primitive Baptist.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Are there any here who believe one can lose their salvation, and then gain it again...if so, how do yo explain Hebrews 6?

And do you believe this can happen multiple times?

It would seem from Hebrews 6, that if you believe one can forfeit their salvation, you must also believe they have given it up forever.

When I look at Hebrews 6 I see in the middle of the discussion of the superiority of the Priesthood of Jesus Christ the author is encouraging people who are already believers to "go on to maturity" rather than continue disucssions about elementary topics regarding certian aspects of salvation such as baptism, or the resurrection, or judgement. Rather he says "And this we will do if God permits". What will "we do"? Well, "Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine" and "go on to maturity". The passage you refer to I think is "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned." I think is an admonition against apostasy following in the same vein as Jesus Teaching in John 15:4.

 

[percho]

Which probably I've done a lousy job of conveying the question, these passages in Hebrews concerning unbelief and falling away; 'I sware in my wrath they shall not enter into my rest', 'impossible to renew them to repentance', 'there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sin but a certain expectation of judgement', 'it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God', 'the LORD shall judge His people', etc.; do these judgments carry eternal consequences, i.e. eternal punishment in hell? I think one is forcing the passages to say that it does.

Methinks you are correct. Verse 1 let us go on unto perfection; Verse 3 And this will we do, if God permit. Chapter 6 follows chapter 5 which follows chapter 4 the rest chapter. Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[steaver]

The Primitive Baptist view of salvation is not millenial exclusion, or a separation of soul and spirit, rather it is the belief that the elect are regenerated and can never lose their ETERNAL life...their obedience, and even belief in Christ has nothing to do with it. However, there is a temporal aspect of salvation (here in this life) that comes with belief & obedience. One can "fall away" from God, abandon belief in Christ, lose the temporary benifits of salvation in this life, stay that way, die that way, but be ultimately saved in the end. (KY can correct any mistakes here)

OK, thanks! I see what you are saying. I have to disagree though, I just don't see any scripture which would indicate that a person can be saved through unbelief. Believing is eternal life, When one is born of God they then KNOW God and the spirit cries out Abba Father. One's spirit cannot be crying out abba Father while the soul or mind or however you might want to define it proclaims UNBELIEF!

 

[SovereignMercy]

And I thought most of you believed the Bible. It disagrees with you. Apostasy is possible, and not only possible but a fact. It has happened and will happen.

An apostate is one, like Judas, who appears to be a believer but never was. No one can loose what God gives freely to whom He chooses. Satan plants takes wherever God sows.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one."

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.