Featured Possible Ten Nation Kingdoms

OK, sure. Take any heathan you run into out there, they know that the "church" believes in a future second coming of Jesus. Even the Catholics get this right. Funny, to be a preterist you must first believe reformed covenant theology. At the heart of that are the historical creeds, all of which state that Jesus is coming again. Those same reformed use the creeds to, in their minds discredit a pre-mil return because the creeds dont specifically refer to a pre mil second advent. Of course the creeds don't specify a post mil second advent either but still the creeds come after the scriptures were written, much later than AD 70 but the preterist are not deterred by this slight inconvenience.

The truth of the matter is I like the fact that there are preterists out there because they make us pre-mil rapture ready dispensationalists seem sane by comparison.

 

ok course there is a future second coming:thumbsup:

 

Why??
If the kingdom is now?
If we are reigning now?
Why does Christ have to come?
That doesn't even make sense.

 

DHK,

even if you do not agree....take a listen....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLLE4srpZOA

 

DHK, OK I will say it, this is one of the annoying aspects of debate with this particular individual. He thinks that he has a lock on the truth and that no one who disagrees with him has ever read or considered the writings of those of whom (he) consumes in large quantities. I have a sister who is very "catholic". She told me that one of our other sisters is a christian because she has a Josh McDowell book on her shelf. I didn't mention to here that I gave our sister that book in an attempt to get her to consider the Bible. I have catholic books on my shelves, this same sister thinks there is hope for me just based on that observation.

I have books by preterists, reformed, covenant, Amil post mil pre mil arminian calvinistic you name it. It is incorrect to say I haven't considered the options. I directly quote gentry and that poster points me to gentry. This is who what are dealing with. As an individual who is inclined towards calvinism, I find the attitudes of calvinists towards anyonne not in lock step with them to be a real negative.

 

That would be a second second coming. First second coming in AD70, the second some other time. Which is the one that no one knows the time or date? Since the first second coming happened in AD70, what day and month was it?

 

There are many reasons why I don't believe.
I don't have time to listen to a video almost one hour long.
When one has to allegorize most of Scripture to come to the conclusions you do, he is in sad shape. When you consider much of Christianity (as I described in a previous post), living in poverty, illiteracy, persecution, and even tortured for their faith, and then you tell me that they are reigning right now, something is wrong with your theology.

 

DHK

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The eternal state comes at the last day of the 1000yr reign

yes...Jesus in jn 6 speaks of the last day

 

Those are good Scriptures found in 1Corinthians 15, a chapter which speaks about "the resurrection."

 

yes...and if you look...it speaks of Jesus reigning and subduing all His enemies in the Kingdom.....then cometh the end:thumbsup:


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

 

You could listen as you scan your computer....I do....

we reign ...Jesus reigns.....in the midst of His enemies......real enemies who do real evil......We overcome by the blood of the Lamb.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

Here is what MacArthur says about those verses:

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[FONT=&quot]Hope that helps. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but much of what he says makes sense.
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In Rev 1:3 Jesus tells us that the time is near which the preterist gobble up as a time text to prove their timeline. In Rev 2:23-24 we read :"Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): Only hold on to what you have until I come."



In that passage we have saved members of the church being told to expect a furure judgement not for the purpose of salvation but for their deeds when Jesus returns. Since this is all past according to preterist theology it seems reasonable to insist that preterists have passed this test, have been judged for their deeds and have now begun to rule and reign with Christ. Personally I find this to be biblically impossible.

At the end of Revelation ch 22 vs 6-7 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
“Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.”



Taken at face value the partial preterist has to explain how a time text in Rev ch 1 applies to the here and now and the same time text in ch 22 is somehow future.


What Im still waiting for are quotes from some of the greats of the faith over the last 2000 years who say that they are ruling and reigning with Christ in this sin stained tent we occupy.

 

If we are currently ruling and reigning with Christ as the preterist claim, what happens at when our personal vital signs drop to zero, physical death? Do we just continue to rule and reign without skipping a beat? Why and for what purpose would we experience this physical death? Why have a physical experience at all after claiming our rights to reign?

In what ways from a Biblical perspective are we ruling and reigning? The prophets such as Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah were given a commission, when were preterists given their commission? What is the extent of their commission? If they are asked a question from one of their constituents, can they get their wisedom from the King in person, face to face? After all, did not John describe the savior as he returns, what he looks like and what he is doing? Could they not approach the throne of Jesus to make inquiries?

Jesus in Matt 19 told the apostles that in the restoration they would be sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. According to preterist the 12 tribes do no longer exist but are instead the church. So are the preterist now ruling and reigning with Christ or are they assisting the apostles on their thrones? And since Israel is in the mind of the preterist the new improved Israel and that they, all of them are ruling and reigning, just exactly who is left besides unbelievers to reign over?

 

Good post thomas15, I await the answers and would like to add.

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Is that still going on today? Or has God ended this taking out out of the nations a people for his name?

Let's also look at verse 16 Luke by inspiration of the Holy Spirit begins After this. After the taking out of the nations a people for his name. Yes or No?
Then semi quotes a passage from Amos 9:11 which begin with, "In that day."

Luke has told us that the, "in that day," is after the taking out of the nations a people for his name which the prophets had written would happen. See Jer 3.

I ask again. Is God still presently taking out of the nations a people for his name. If so, the rebuilding the tabernacle of David has not yet begun. Whatever you think the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David to be.

 

Another problem for the preterist who think that all or almost all of the prophecies of the Bible have been fufilled, that the judgements in Revelation are strictly for the Jews, that Jesus returned when the Roman Army sacked Jerusalem AD70 and that Christians are in the kingdom ruling and reigning with Christ.

In 1 Thess 1:10 ...."and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come".

Why would Paul tell the mostly gentile believers in Thessalonica, that far away from Jerusalem that Christ would save them for the wrath to come if the wrath, clearly the judgements in Revelation would not be a factor to gentiles on another continent?

The answer is as plain as day to those who take the words of the Bible seriously, in Rev 6:8... "I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth."


1/4 of the peoples of the earth judged. Dead. No event in history compares to this. But the preterist just shrug this off as Jehovah using "allegory" to make a point and then throw figurative rocks at those who dare to disagree with them.

 

thomas15

Paul explained that like this:
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


Notice....Kingdom service and Kingdom living also has suffering included.

We are as God's witnesses and mouthpiece as we now have the complete word of God to go to war with in the Spirits power. The Nt is loaded with instruction that shows how many of the Ot prophecies are being fulfilled by us right now!

for example.....
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Jesus reigns from the Heavenly Jerusalem...that is the Mountain of the Lord.

Earthly Jerusalem is no longer the Holy Place...it has been desolated....

The church is instructed to :
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain

In mT 28...what more do we need...All authority belongs to Jesus He was sent by The Father.....now we are sent with the full revelation of God's law word, to all the nations as God so loved the world that He gave His Son...for everyone believing worldwide. Eph 4-5 speak of the same Kingdom instruction.Much of the teaching comes from the teaching given to Ot Israel.

Here is Zech 8...quoted by Paul in Eph 4.--- If you take your dispensational spectacles off for one minute you will see it-
8 Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying,

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury.

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.

4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

6 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts.

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

9 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of the Lord of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.

10 For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction: for I set all men every one against his neighbour.

11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the Lord of hosts.

12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

14 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the Lord of hosts, and I repented not:

15 So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not.

16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:

17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord.

Yes,they can by attending to the word preached,and seeking God's face in prayer and bible study

We are still the early church...there is no shortage of unbelievers.:thumbs:

 

I don't think stringing together a bunch of verses without explanation gives much evidence of anything.

 

DHK,

That is why you believe only what you believe.....you need to see the bible as a complete revelation . not broken fragments...

Jesus rules and reigns from the heavenly Mt Zion and Jerusalem-HeB 12:22-24

isa 2
zech8 reference this future rule, that was future when they wrote it, but the Holy Spirit has Paul identify it as NOW..
here are more for you;
Psalm 2:6
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psalm 53:6
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
Psalm 110:2
The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Isaiah 24:23
Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously

watch out DHK...metaphorical language at work and displayed...

Isaiah 33:5
The Lord is exalted; for he dwelleth on high: he hath filled Zion with judgment and righteousness

saiah 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings
Isaiah 35:10
And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

we sing this chorus...lol

Isaiah 59:20
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
I
The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the Lord, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 62:11
Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Jeremiah 50:5
They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten

Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Joel 3:16
The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Joel 3:17
So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Micah 4:7
And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Zechariah 8:3
Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.

You will not see it because you do not "have time" to listen to other teachers, but others will listen and see.

The Lord came to the earthly Zion and Jerusalem...as David took it years ago....but Jesus ascended taking that which was the shadow up to the reality!

There are more than 150 references to study on this....for any who are not too busy.

 

You can copy and paste verses, run them together, but in the end they do not make a lot of sense. They contradict what the Bible actually teaches.

You ignore what has been posted to you. Many of my posts you don't even address. You just ignore them, and go on copy and pasting. That is not debate. I can read my Bible on my own. I don't need you and BB to help me read it.