Soul Sleep and Seventh Day Adventists

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

Jesus did teach of what a believer experiences upon physical death;

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;" (Luke 16)

…. ."Angels all around". A few hours later he died. Scott wanted to show me the paper. I immediately thought of Jesus's teaching how the angels came for the beggar who must have been a believer for he was carried to Abraham's bossom (Paradise, not heaven then, but a good place to be until Jesus' ressurection led captivity captive into heaven).

I appreciate your response. I have abbreviated my quotation of your incident. If heaven is not paradise is Jesus in heaven or paradise? I do not have a simple and clear explanation of The Rich Man and Lazarus. If I did I would reply in full, or join in a thread on this subject. I will briefly state my present situation with this.

A few parameters: The first is that Jesus wrote this to highlight the Pharisees’ covetousness.
Luke 16:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them:
The Rich Man and Lazarus follows on after a few verses.

The second parameter is that Lazarus is specifically mentioned and a short time after this a man by the name of Lazarus is resurrected after being asleep four days. At the end of Jesus’ discourse here, he also speaks of resurrection
Luke 16:29-31 (KJV): 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
They did not repent after Lazarus' resurrection, but this seemed to be the trigger to definitely plot the death of Jesus.

My present assessment, which I feel will not satisfy you, is that Jesus is giving a story to highlight their covetousness and lack of belief as shown above. He uses the framework of the Pharisees’ belief of the afterlife, but I cannot accept that Jesus is endorsing, let alone directly teaching this concept of the Pharisees’ belief.

As a rough estimate, I believe I could quote say 80 verses that teach and endorse my overall views on this subject, another 10 verses would also encourage and endorse my view in my mind at least, and maybe 10 verses or Scriptures that I would put in the difficult basket. The Rich Man and Lazarus is definitely one of these. So I do not have an answer on this that would satisfy myself, let alone convince you who hold a similar view to the Pharisees on the afterlife. My comment on your friend’s father is that his mind would naturally highlight the thinking that is dominant at the time of his near death. I met a Baptist friend who gave me an intimation that I interpreted as that he was soon going to heaven, instead of simply waiting for the resurrection at Christ’s return. I had not previously discussed this subject with him at work. What I am saying, is whatever we are taught, this comes to the fore at the appropriate time. Paul was looking for the return of Jesus in 2 Timothy 4:1,8.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DHK]

Greetings DHK,

I appreciate your involvement in this thread. Concerning the death of Stephen:

I believe you are limiting the meaning of the word sleep here. The meaning is clarified by the usage of the word in Daniel 12:2 and the connection with Genesis 3:19.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
No passage in Daniel or in Genesis dictates the meaning of "he fell asleep" in Acts 7:60. The primary factor is the context in which the phrase is used.

(CEV) He knelt down and shouted, "Lord, don't blame them for what they have done." Then he died.
(GW) Then he knelt down and shouted, "Lord, don't hold this sin against them." After he had said this, he died.
(ISV) Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, don't hold this sin against them!" After he had said this, he died.

It is quite evident that not even all translators agree with you. They know that the meaning of the word is "physical death."

If when we die we are already in heaven with the Lord, how are we awaiting the coming of the Lord?

The apostle Paul, all the rest of the apostles, all NT believers, and all who have died in the Lord are awaiting the coming of the Lord. I am still alive, but I also await the coming of the Lord. Why should this be difficult to understand seeing that he hasn't come yet. When the Lord comes then the resurrection happens, and we (both the dead in Christ, and we which are alive in Christ) will receive our resurrected (or glorified) bodies.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

I am prepared to differ here. I could compare Isaiah 6 and many other visions. I gave my explanation of Christ standing.

You can give all the other Scriptures you want. It won't matter. You must deal with this text. It says that Stephen saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand. Either Stephen is lying or Luke who wrote it is lying (which means the Holy Spirit is lying, for it is written under his inspiration). Your choice. You can't fit Isaiah 6 here. This isn't a vision. Stephen is looking up into the heavens and describes exactly what he sees. Don't make him out to be a liar. He saw what he saw.

Where was the thief going to go then?

"Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."
He went to paradise with Jesus, and then with Jesus and all the other OT, went up to heaven. There is no paradise. It has been done away with. It no longer exists.

Yes the idea of a man’s conscious spirit being separated from the body at death and being in heaven does confuse me. Why is there a need for the resurrection of the body?

Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Because our bodies are corrupted with corruptible flesh and an old nature, and that which defileth cannot enter into heaven.
Because the Bible teaches that we will receive a new body when Christ comes again.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Paul when he was facing death reveals his hope:
2 Timothy 4:6-8 (KJV): 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
He does not say, I am about to die and I will soon be in heaven with the Lord, but his hope was in the resurrection at the return of Jesus.

First, the hope of every believer is in the return of Jesus:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
--So your point here is moot.
We all look forward to the return of Christ. It is our hope. That is not what Paul was teaching.

He was ready to die, physically. "I am ready to be offered" (sacrificed, martyred). In heaven there was a crown of righteousness awaiting him. He was ready to meet the Lord. He knew that his body would be buried, perhaps even torched by Nero. But his spirit would be with the Lord. His body would await the resurrection, and still does.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DHK,

I appreciate the response. I apologise for the length of my reply, but tried to cover most of what you stated.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
No passage in Daniel or in Genesis dictates the meaning of "he fell asleep" in Acts 7:60. The primary factor is the context in which the phrase is used.

(CEV) He knelt down and shouted, "Lord, don't blame them for what they have done." Then he died.
(GW) Then he knelt down and shouted, "Lord, don't hold this sin against them." After he had said this, he died.
(ISV) Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, don't hold this sin against them!" After he had said this, he died.

It is quite evident that not even all translators agree with you. They know that the meaning of the word is "physical death."

Words have a range of primary and secondary meanings. I agree that the meaning of “fell asleep” can be represented by “physical death”. But the Scriptures also use “sleep” and “fell asleep” to indicate the potential, possibility and probability and for the faithful the inevitability that those that sleep in the Lord will be awakened out of that sleep when Christ returns to raise the dead. To me, it also indicates that there is no consciousness in death.

Jesus’ use of this language demonstrates some of the range and spiritual meaning of the words sleep and death when he speaks of Lazarus:
John 11:11-14 (KJV): 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
It is important to notice the use of the word sleep in this chapter and 1 Corinthians 15, both of which are vital with respect to the subject of resurrection.

As far as the translators that you quote are concerned, they are giving what may be called dynamic equivalence and this has the danger of bias. I prefer a more literal translation when possible, close to the words of the Hebrew and Greek sources. Dynamic equivalence can be helpful in some contexts to explain idiom and figures of speech, but in this instance I believe they are ignoring the beauty and the teaching of the Scriptural figure used.

The word used for sleep here is S#G2387 and is used for natural sleep as well as the sleep of death:
Matthew 28:13 (KJV): Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
Luke 22:45 (KJV): And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
Acts 12:6 (KJV): And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door kept the prison.

As far as translations I took a survey of some renditions of Acts 7:60:
he fell asleep: KJV, RV, RSV, Rotherham, JB, NJB, Young’s Literal, NKJV, Darby
he died: NEB, NRSV, Living NT, Weymouth
he slept the sleep of death: Moffat; he fell asleep (in death): Amplified
All the above are helpful, but I prefer to start with the first group which are more literal translations.

Isaiah seems to indicate a difference between those who die, and those who die in hope of the resurrection:
Isaiah 26:14,19 (KJV): 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

The apostle Paul, all the rest of the apostles, all NT believers, and all who have died in the Lord are awaiting the coming of the Lord. I am still alive, but I also await the coming of the Lord. Why should this be difficult to understand seeing that he hasn't come yet. When the Lord comes then the resurrection happens, and we (both the dead in Christ, and we which are alive in Christ) will receive our resurrected (or glorified) bodies.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

I agree with the resurrection of the body, but I cannot understand if the faithful are already glorified and in heaven why do they also need to return and be raised from the dead. What is really lacking in their present spiritual existence in heaven? Are they like ghosts floating around, and need spiritual bodies to stabilise them, or give them real existence? Are the spirits in heaven equal with the angels now, or only after the resurrection of their bodies Luke 20:35-36? I believe that the clear Scriptural testimony of the resurrection of the body is really an embarrassment to those who espoused the pagan idea of immortal souls. Those at Athens (Greek philosophers) scoffed at Paul when he taught the resurrection.

You can give all the other Scriptures you want. It won't matter. You must deal with this text. It says that Stephen saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand. Either Stephen is lying or Luke who wrote it is lying (which means the Holy Spirit is lying, for it is written under his inspiration). Your choice. You can't fit Isaiah 6 here. This isn't a vision. Stephen is looking up into the heavens and describes exactly what he sees. Don't make him out to be a liar. He saw what he saw.

I can tolerate or even accept your view that Stephen literally saw Jesus. What I do not accept is the idea that Stephen’s conscious existence went to heaven. Jesus will come for Stephen and judge those who killed him. Jesus came for Paul in a remarkable way, when he saw Jesus in glory, despite the fact that Paul had consented to the death of Stephen.

"Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."
He went to paradise with Jesus, and then with Jesus and all the other OT, went up to heaven. There is no paradise. It has been done away with. It no longer exists.

This is a new idea to me. I suppose the Butcher’s wife was in the bad part of Sheol or Hades, and the Grandmother was in the Paradise portion, but both below the ground, in Fiddler on the Roof. Why does Peter say that David has not ascended to heaven in Acts 2:34? I believe paradise is the kingdom of God restored, when the earth will be transformed to become like the Garden of Eden. The word paradise seems to be the Persian word for garden adopted into Greek. Was there a garden in Hades?
Isaiah 51:3 (KJV): For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

He was ready to die, physically. "I am ready to be offered" (sacrificed, martyred). In heaven there was a crown of righteousness awaiting him. He was ready to meet the Lord. He knew that his body would be buried, perhaps even torched by Nero. But his spirit would be with the Lord. His body would await the resurrection, and still does.

Similar to Stephen, I do not believe Paul is in heaven, but awaiting only the resurrection. Jesus was going to give Paul the crown of righteousness “in that Day”, when he appears, not when Paul’s spirit goes to heaven.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

I believe paradise is the kingdom of God restored, when the earth will be transformed to become like the Garden of Eden.
Trevor

Your are new here Trevor. It appears to me from this satement that you may be a Jehovah Witness. If you are, then you have a bigger biblical problem than soul sleep going on. But maybe I am wrong, so let me ask you a question and I will trust you will give an honest answer; Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Eternal God? That the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One God?

 

[DHK]

Your are new here Trevor. It appears to me from this satement that you may be a Jehovah Witness. If you are, then you have a bigger biblical problem than soul sleep going on. But maybe I am wrong, so let me ask you a question and I will trust you will give an honest answer; Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Eternal God? That the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One God?

Here is what Trevor believes

I am not sure if you and Dr. Walter are willing to accept what I have stated in Post #21, but in summary I believe that Jeremiah’s 70-year prophecy has at least two starting points and two ending points. A similar time chart could be drawn for the 2300. I agree that one starting point of the 2300 could be with the beginnings of the ram, but I see a significant starting point in BC334 concluding in AD 1967. In some respects, what we have in Jeremiah’s prophecy concerning the captivity in Babylon is similar in scope to the Prophecy of Daniel 8, both concluding with the rededication of the sanctuary in Jerusalem.

You might ask that if I am willing to accept one fulfillment of the 2300 somewhere in the vicinity of 1843-44, then what happened at this time. I look first at the example of what happened with Daniel, who prayed and the angels responded to his prayer. We do not have a record of any of the prayers given in 1843-44, not Divinely inspired records of any at least. But just as in Daniel’s day, the time allotted (if 1843-44 is correct) was ripe, and faithful believers of prophecy would be praying for the restoration of Israel to their land, and the reestablishment of Divine worship at Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-5. We have witnessed some of the events that the angels who control the affairs of the nations have accomplished in response to these prayers. We have seen the eventual establishment of the State of Israel in 1848, and the release of Jerusalem into the hands of the Jews in 1967. We patiently wait for the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom upon the earth for 1000 years.

That there was a large interest in these times of Daniel 8 is obvious from historical records concerning the preaching by William Miller. Out of all these, some gathered to be taken to heaven, but were disappointed. Others at this time, quoting from one SDA book that I have in front of me, "taught the restoration of the Jews and other views derived from the British literalists". It is my present belief that some of these, and others by reason of their belief and prayers concerning the purpose of God with the kingdom of God and Israel, and their belief in the things of the Name Acts 8:5,12 became in themselves part of the second portion of the restored spiritual temple, the holy place, waiting to be united with Christ at his coming 1 John 3:1-3.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1656512&postcount=22

 

[DHK]

And more importantly, here:

I consider that the question “Is Jesus God” is not a valid question because of what the Trinitarians believe. In other words, the Scriptures do use the word “God” for Jesus, for example Thomas’ statement, but I believe that he understood the meaning of this word in a different sense. For example in Psalm 82:6 the Judges were called Elohim, because they represented the word and judgement of God. I believe a valid question is:
Matthew 22:41-45 (KJV): 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
My answer would be, the Christ, Jesus, is the Son of God, and Psalm 110:1 is proof of this.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1734029&postcount=49

 

[Yeshua1]

And more importantly, here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1734029&postcount=49

the Fathere will command ALL to confess and worship jesus is LORD...

God shares His glory with no one else...

How can Jesus NOT be God if the Father Himself demands Him to be worshipped?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver and DHK and greetings Yeshua1,

Your are new here Trevor. It appears to me from this satement that you may be a Jehovah Witness. If you are, then you have a bigger biblical problem than soul sleep going on. But maybe I am wrong, so let me ask you a question and I will trust you will give an honest answer; Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Eternal God? That the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One God?

I am not sure what this has to do with the present thread. As stated previously I am not a SDA, neither am I a JW. The SDAs believe that the earth will be desolate for the 1000 years. The JWs believe that only the faithful up to the time of the beginning of the 1000 years will inhabit the earth, while 144,000 special ones, only after the death of Christ will be in heaven – this excludes the faithful of the OT from heaven, such as Abraham. Neither the JWs or SDAs believe in the restoration and conversion of natural Israel. Their present restoration in unbelief of Jesus as their Messiah is one of the greatest signs that Jesus will soon return and convert them.

I believe in the return of Jesus, the raising and rewarding of the faithful. Jesus will reign on the throne of David from Jerusalem for the 1000 years and the faithful will be king-priests with him. I believe in the conversion of natural Israel and the nations when Jesus returns Isaiah 2:1-4, and these will be mortal inhabitants of the earth for the 1000 years. Yes I do have a strong fellowship with a group of believers, but instead on going by a name, I prefer to discuss the Scriptures. There is only one name of salvation, that revealed in and through Jesus Acts 4.

As indicated by DHK I believe that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I do not accept the Trinity. Yeshua1 seems to be quoting the following:
Philippians 2:5-11 (KJV): 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I worship and bow the knee to Jesus the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

As indicated by DHK I believe that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I do not accept the Trinity.
I worship and bow the knee to Jesus the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Then this would be Mormonism, correct?

If you deny Jesus is God, you would also have to deny the virgin birth, you would have to deny Jesus' words "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". Not to mention about a hundred other passages of scripture.

 

[Eliyahu]

I believe in the Soul Sleep as William Tyndale, Martin Luther and Most Anabaptists believed.

That means that I don't believe the Extinction of The Souls. Souls will live forever.

Soul extinction is denied between REv 19:20 and 20:10 because the Beast and the False Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire for a thousand years, thereafter still are they there being tormented forever!

At least Souls will be taking rest as you can read Rev 6:11 and REv 14:13.

If they are praying or prasing or watching, that is not taking rest.

Prayer to the Dead must be denied! and Prayer to the dead Mary must be rejected!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver and greetings Eliyahu,

Then this would be Mormonism, correct?

If you deny Jesus is God, you would also have to deny the virgin birth, you would have to deny Jesus' words "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". Not to mention about a hundred other passages of scripture.

No I am not a Mormon and find their teachings very strange. They definitely believe in the immortality of the soul. They even believe each individual existed before they were born. You will insist on trying to place me in a pigeonhole.

I believe very much in the virgin birth. God is Jesus’ Father, Mary is his mother and Jesus is therefore the Son of God and Emmanuel:
Matthew 1:20-23 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Luke 1:30-35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

We could discuss John 17:5 and the 100 other passages that you choose but this is not the subject of this thread. Perhaps I could raise some passages that could explain my understanding of why I believe that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is The Son of God, but this is not the subject of this thread.

I believe in the Soul Sleep as William Tyndale, Martin Luther and Most Anabaptists believed.

That means that I don't believe the Extinction of The Souls. Souls will live forever.

I am not sure that I want to get into a discussion on this except to say that I believe that the living soul created in Genesis 2:7 was destined to return to the dust in Genesis 3:19 and this is the state that the “individual” is found in Daniel 12:2 “sleeping in the dust of the earth”. As such I do not believe there is any consciousness, and this agrees with such passages as:
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalm 146:3-4 (KJV): Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DHK]

I believe that the living soul created in Genesis 2:7 was destined to return to the dust in Genesis 3:19 and this is the state that the “individual” is found in Daniel 12:2 “sleeping in the dust of the earth”. As such I do not believe there is any consciousness, and this agrees with such passages as:
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalm 146:3-4 (KJV): Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Kind regards
Trevor

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Literally "a living being," referring to the entire person not the soul of a man.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
--This was spoken to Adam. It is part of the curse and refers to his physical body; has nothing to do with the soul. God made his body out of the dust of the earth, not his soul.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
--The word sleep means to die, and refers to the body. They are buried and in the grave. A looser translation will bear that out:

(CEV) Many of those who lie dead in the ground will rise from death. Some of them will be given eternal life, and others will receive nothing but eternal shame and disgrace.

Psalm 6:5 is a prayer. One doesn't form doctrine from a prayer. It also is speaking about the body. A corpse doesn't pray. That is the meaning.

The same meaning is applicable to Psalm 146.
You don't have an argument or a leg to stand on.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DHK,

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Literally "a living being," referring to the entire person not the soul of a man.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
--This was spoken to Adam. It is part of the curse and refers to his physical body; has nothing to do with the soul. God made his body out of the dust of the earth, not his soul.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
--The word sleep means to die, and refers to the body. They are buried and in the grave. A looser translation will bear that out:

(CEV) Many of those who lie dead in the ground will rise from death. Some of them will be given eternal life, and others will receive nothing but eternal shame and disgrace.

Psalm 6:5 is a prayer. One doesn't form doctrine from a prayer. It also is speaking about the body. A corpse doesn't pray. That is the meaning.

The same meaning is applicable to Psalm 146.
You don't have an argument or a leg to stand on.

I discount the usage of “looser” translations, as they are only sometimes helpful and ignore some of the detail in the actual passage. Could you show me in the OT where it speaks of man having an immortal soul that lives on after death? When and how was it imparted and where does it say that the soul goes at death? It was the serpent who did not have a leg to stand on when he taught that man would not die.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DHK]

Greetings again DHK,

I discount the usage of “looser” translations, as they are only sometimes helpful and ignore some of the detail in the actual passage. Could you show me in the OT where it speaks of man having an immortal soul that lives on after death? When and how was it imparted and where does it say that the soul goes at death? It was the serpent who did not have a leg to stand on when he taught that man would not die.

Kind regards
Trevor

I don't need to show you through the OT. Why would I need to confine myself to the OT?
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
We are spirit beings housed in an earthly body. When we die (if saved), our spirits go to heaven for all eternity. If not they go to hell for all eternity. This body is only temporary.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
--Some day, this spirit will be clothed with a body from heaven, as it says in verse two: "our house which is in heaven," referring to our glorified body. There is no soul sleep. The body goes to the grave and spirit/soul goes to heaven or hell.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
--We shall not remain in death. It is talking of the body, the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DHK,

I don't need to show you through the OT. Why would I need to confine myself to the OT?

The reason why I suggested looking first at the OT is that I cannot find the concept of an immortal soul in the OT. There are some verses in the NT that are used by supporters of the concept of an immortal soul or spirit in man. In my opinion these verses are better understood if the OT teaching that man is mortal, and his whole being including his thinking process descends to the grave and returns to dust.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
We are spirit beings housed in an earthly body. When we die (if saved), our spirits go to heaven for all eternity. If not they go to hell for all eternity. This body is only temporary.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
--Some day, this spirit will be clothed with a body from heaven, as it says in verse two: "our house which is in heaven," referring to our glorified body. There is no soul sleep. The body goes to the grave and spirit/soul goes to heaven or hell.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
--We shall not remain in death. It is talking of the body, the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Again I have great difficulty here with your view. You say that the spirits of the faithful go to heaven for all eternity, and the spirits of the wicked go to hell for all eternity. But then you talk of the resurrection. Do the spirits return from heaven and hell, get reunited with their resurrected body and then return to heaven and hell again? If they are already spirits in heaven and hell what is the purpose of adding a spiritual body? Will the wicked suffer more with or without their body? Will the faithful be able to enjoy heaven more with their bodies. I see here a conflict of two opposing concepts. The Bible teaching of the mortality of man and the need for resurrection. The second the pagan concept of man’s inherent immortality (either spirit or soul), a view adopted by Apostate Christianity as it merged with Greek and pagan philosophy.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DHK]

Greetings again DHK,
The reason why I suggested looking first at the OT is that I cannot find the concept of an immortal soul in the OT. There are some verses in the NT that are used by supporters of the concept of an immortal soul or spirit in man. In my opinion these verses are better understood if the OT teaching that man is mortal, and his whole being including his thinking process descends to the grave and returns to dust.

It is best to stick primarily to the NT when discussing the resurrection, Christianity, and its related doctrines.

Again I have great difficulty here with your view. You say that the spirits of the faithful go to heaven for all eternity, and the spirits of the wicked go to hell for all eternity.

Let's be accurate.
The spirit of the saved, those who have put their faith and trust in Christ will go to heaven.
The spirit of the unsaved, the lost, those who have rejected Christ will spend an eternity in hell.
Those are the two choices man has. He chooses his own destiny as he confronts the reality of Christ. He either receives him or rejects him.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

But then you talk of the resurrection. Do the spirits return from heaven and hell, get reunited with their resurrected body and then return to heaven and hell again?

There are two resurrections: the resurrection of the just and the unjust.
The resurrection of the just or of all believers takes place at the rapture when Christ comes for his own. At that time all believers will meet the Lord in the air:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
--The dead in Christ shall rise first. That is those bodies that are in the graves, but only the bodies of those that had previously trusted Christ.
The dead come forth; their spirits have already been with the Lord (2Cor.5:8; Phil.1:23). The spirit are now joined together with the resurrected glorified body (1Cor.15:35-50). All this takes place in a moment, the twinkling of an eye--so fast that it could hardly be imagined.

If they are already spirits in heaven and hell what is the purpose of adding a spiritual body?

After the rapture takes place there will be seven years of Tribulation when God's wrath will be poured out on this earth, and then Christ will come back and set up his reign on this earth. His coming is described in Revelation 19. He will reign for a thousand years. We, as believers will reign on this earth with him. We need bodies to reign on earth.

After the thousand year reign there will be the resurrection of the unjust, the damned. It is described in Rev.20:10-15. It is also called the Great White Throne Judgment. They will all received a "resurrected" body at that time, as they stand before the Lord, before whom every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father. Then death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire, along with all the unsaved. It is their final sentence for all eternity.

Will the wicked suffer more with or without their body? Will the faithful be able to enjoy heaven more with their bodies. I see here a conflict of two opposing concepts. The Bible teaching of the mortality of man and the need for resurrection. The second the pagan concept of man’s inherent immortality (either spirit or soul), a view adopted by Apostate Christianity as it merged with Greek and pagan philosophy.

Perhaps you read too much Greek and pagan literature and too little of the Bible. There are two groups of people: saved and unsaved.
There are two resurrections: one for the just or saved, the other for the unjust or unsaved.
From the beginning God made us spirit beings just as he made the angels. We are created "a little lower than the angels." We are spirit beings clothed with a temporal body. Someday this temporal body will be shed. Our spirit will live on. The question is where? When the resurrection happens our spirits will be joined with our bodies, our glorified bodies, but our fate will already have been determined by the choices we made on this earth in this lifetime with respect to Christ.

 

[percho]

For the life ( nephesh soul) of all flesh; the blood of it for the life (soul nephesh ) thereof: Lev 17:14

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen temporal; but the things which are not seen eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor 4 last verse 5 first verse

Can I safely assume the flesh in Lev is the body? Meaning the body of flesh with the blood in the tabernacle of the soul, nephesh, life.

Therefore would not the soul be dormant after death awaiting it's house from heaven? That is to be clothed with eternal life?

That is resurrection and or instant change at the appearing of Christ?

 

[DHK]

For the life ( nephesh soul) of all flesh; the blood of it for the life (soul nephesh ) thereof: Lev 17:14

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen temporal; but the things which are not seen eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor 4 last verse 5 first verse

Can I safely assume the flesh in Lev is the body? Meaning the body of flesh with the blood in the tabernacle of the soul, nephesh, life.

Therefore would not the soul be dormant after death awaiting it's house from heaven? That is to be clothed with eternal life?

That is resurrection and or instant change at the appearing of Christ?

No, the life of the flesh is not the life of the person. Leviticus 17:11 is not speaking of saved or unsaved people. It is speaking of physical life. George Washington died because they practiced "blood-letting." They let too much blood out of his body. That was the essence of his physical life, not spiritual life.
God breathed into Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul, that is a complete person--body, soul, and spirit.

At death the body dies and the spirit/soul goes either to heaven or hell.
Look at James:

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--Death is separation of body from spirit. The body is buried; the spirit goes to heaven or hell.
Paul said plainly: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. One cannot argue against that statement.
Jesus said: I go and prepare a place for you that where I am you may be also.
What was he talking about?

 

[Yeshua1]

Greetings again steaver and greetings Eliyahu,

No I am not a Mormon and find their teachings very strange. They definitely believe in the immortality of the soul. They even believe each individual existed before they were born. You will insist on trying to place me in a pigeonhole.

I believe very much in the virgin birth. God is Jesus’ Father, Mary is his mother and Jesus is therefore the Son of God and Emmanuel:
Matthew 1:20-23 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Luke 1:30-35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

We could discuss John 17:5 and the 100 other passages that you choose but this is not the subject of this thread. Perhaps I could raise some passages that could explain my understanding of why I believe that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is The Son of God, but this is not the subject of this thread.

I am not sure that I want to get into a discussion on this except to say that I believe that the living soul created in Genesis 2:7 was destined to return to the dust in Genesis 3:19 and this is the state that the “individual” is found in Daniel 12:2 “sleeping in the dust of the earth”. As such I do not believe there is any consciousness, and this agrees with such passages as:
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalm 146:3-4 (KJV): Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Kind regards
Trevor

the bible teaches that Jesus was/is Yahweh taking on human flesh, becoming a man and living among us?

 

[percho]

No, the life of the flesh is not the life of the person. Leviticus 17:11 is not speaking of saved or unsaved people. It is speaking of physical life. George Washington died because they practiced "blood-letting." They let too much blood out of his body. That was the essence of his physical life, not spiritual life.
God breathed into Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul, that is a complete person--body, soul, and spirit.

At death the body dies and the spirit/soul goes either to heaven or hell.
Look at James:

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--Death is separation of body from spirit. The body is buried; the spirit goes to heaven or hell.
Paul said plainly: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. One cannot argue against that statement.
Jesus said: I go and prepare a place for you that where I am you may be also.
What was he talking about?

I thought the word said the spirit returned to the God who gave it. Eccl. 12:7

Let's see if I have this correct? Jesus the moment of death, commended his spirit unto the Father God. As a matter of fact isn't that the exact moment Jesus died, when the spirit of him departed from him? Now as you quoted from James that left the body of Jesus dead. Actually subject to corruption.

Now that leaves the soul. I believe we are told Jesus who knew no sin was made was made sin for us. I believe it is stated that the Lord laid all of our
iniquity, sin, on him. And the soul that sins it shall die. That he Jesus the Christ poured out his soul unto death.
The spirit of him commended into the hands of the Father. In the care of, his Father. At that moment the body died and his soul haven taken our sin upon himself died for us. David said thou will not leave my soul in Hades. Peter said David wasn't speaking of himself when he said that but that he was speaking of the Christ, Jesus. And that he was speaking of the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades. By not
speaking of himself then the soul of David on that Pentecost day was still in Hades. As a matter of fact Peter said that David on that day was both dead and buried. Being the conversation had been about both the soul of David and the flesh, body of David I take that to mean that on that day the soul David was dead and the flesh body was buried and had seen corruption and it is right over there in his sepulchre. I would assume from scripture that the spirit that had given life to the soul and body of David had returned to the God who had given it to him at his birth.

Christ died for us. Christ died for the ungodly.

Find for me in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures where either the words spiritual life and physical life or spiritual death and physical death are found together.

That is what scripture says about soul and body that are subject to death and about spirit from whence comes life.