Soul Sleep and Seventh Day Adventists

[DHK]

I thought the word said the spirit returned to the God who gave it. Eccl. 12:7

Let's see if I have this correct? Jesus the moment of death, commended his spirit unto the Father God. As a matter of fact isn't that the exact moment Jesus died, when the spirit of him departed from him? Now as you quoted from James that left the body of Jesus dead. Actually subject to corruption.

In reference to his body, yes.

Now that leaves the soul. I believe we are told Jesus who knew no sin was made was made sin for us. I believe it is stated that the Lord laid all of our
iniquity, sin, on him.

Up to here we agree.

And the soul that sins it shall die.

Give the reference here. If this is from Ezekiel it is speaking about the law and punishment for crimes done. The soul (that is the person who has committed crimes) shall die for the crimes he committed (such as murder). That is the context of that verse. It is not speaking of "soul" as in the soul of a man, but rather the entire person.

That he Jesus the Christ poured out his soul unto death.

Again what does that mean to you? Have you ever poured out your soul to a person? You tell them everything. You get it all out. It involves the entire person. It does not refer just to the inward part of man.

The spirit of him commended into the hands of the Father. In the care of, his Father. At that moment the body died and his soul haven taken our sin upon himself died for us.

Christ took our sins upon himself, not "his soul." Where do you get that from? The person is more than just a soul. He suffered and died for us.

David said thou will not leave my soul in Hades. Peter said David wasn't speaking of himself when he said that but that he was speaking of the Christ, Jesus. And that he was speaking of the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades.

He was speaking of the body of Christ, for he was speaking of the resurrection. Christ's soul/spirit cannot die. You cannot kill God.

By not
speaking of himself then the soul of David on that Pentecost day was still in Hades.

Soul is usually used in connection with the thinking part of man, as in the brain. Sometimes it is used interchangeably with spirit as to indicate the immortal part of man. But here it simply means the "me" part of man, as David is saying "You will not leave me in the grave."

As a matter of fact Peter said that David on that day was both dead and buried. Being the conversation had been about both the soul of David and the flesh, body of David I take that to mean that on that day the soul David was dead and the flesh body was buried and had seen corruption and it is right over there in his sepulchre.

David was dead, both physically and brain dead. His mind ceased to work.

I would assume from scripture that the spirit that had given life to the soul and body of David had returned to the God who had given it to him at his birth.

Yes.

Christ died for us. Christ died for the ungodly.

Find for me in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures where either the words spiritual life and physical life or spiritual death and physical death are found together.

That is what scripture says about soul and body that are subject to death and about spirit from whence comes life.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This is physical death--where the body is separated from spirit.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--This is spiritual death--where the spirit was separated from God.

Find for me "trinity" and other theological terms in the Bible.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DHK,

… there will be …. Tribulation when God's wrath will be poured out on this earth …. Christ will come back and set up his reign on this earth. His coming is described in Revelation 19. He will reign for a thousand years. We, as believers will reign on this earth with him.

I appreciate your response. I was starting to worry that you did not believe in Christ’s reign on earth, but only taught heaven going, both before and after the resurrection. I have quoted an abbreviated version of part of your reply. I have reservations about the parts that I left out even in the above, but will not discuss that here. We still hold a different view on whether man was mortal or in some way immortal after he was expelled from the Garden of Eden, but I do not want to respond to everything you have raised. Yes I agree that man was made a little lower than the angels, but we differ in our conclusion of what this represents. Unless something really important or beneficial arises in this thread I would to conclude my involvement here. I have some catching up with some interesting Isaiah studies in conjunction with our Bible Class. We are considering Isaiah 1-12, and we are next to consider Isaiah 11, a very important chapter.

the bible teaches that Jesus was/is Yahweh taking on human flesh, becoming a man and living among us?

I am not sure if this is a question or a statement. If a statement then I have a different view as I believe the way in which the Father is revealed is in and through His Son. Jesus then is Yahweh manifest or revealed. There is one God the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. This is not the subject of this thread, so I will not expand on this theme or continue to respond to this subject on this thread.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[percho]

In reference to his body, yes.

Up to here we agree.

Give the reference here. If this is from Ezekiel it is speaking about the law and punishment for crimes done. The soul (that is the person who has committed crimes) shall die for the crimes he committed (such as murder). That is the context of that verse. It is not speaking of "soul" as in the soul of a man, but rather the entire person.

Again what does that mean to you? Have you ever poured out your soul to a person? You tell them everything. You get it all out. It involves the entire person. It does not refer just to the inward part of man.

Christ took our sins upon himself, not "his soul." Where do you get that from? The person is more than just a soul. He suffered and died for us.

He was speaking of the body of Christ, for he was speaking of the resurrection. Christ's soul/spirit cannot die. You cannot kill God.

Soul is usually used in connection with the thinking part of man, as in the brain. Sometimes it is used interchangeably with spirit as to indicate the immortal part of man. But here it simply means the "me" part of man, as David is saying "You will not leave me in the grave."

David was dead, both physically and brain dead. His mind ceased to work.

Yes.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This is physical death--where the body is separated from spirit.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--This is spiritual death--where the spirit was separated from God.

Find for me "trinity" and other theological terms in the Bible.

A friend or loved one of yours dies. Three days later you go to the funeral and the casket is open yet someone will say, I do not want to look because that isn't really him. Him, that is the person you loved and or knew, the personality you communed with and thought of; the living soul. Soul is what makes up the person, the personality of the body of flesh. That body of dead flesh looks like your memory of the person, The soul, that occupied that body of flesh.

Speaking of the resurrection of the Christ.
not was left the soul of him into Hades ------neither-or not yet-------
the flesh of him perceived thru corruption

Neither and or not yet, connects the not really him, his body of flesh to the personality, the soul that is loved, hated or what ever, to the resurrection of the Christ

The interlinear of the Greek is the soul of the Christ and the flesh of the Christ resurrected.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This is physical death--where the body is separated from spirit.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--This is spiritual death--where the spirit was separated from God.

Sin brings death, when we sin we are dead in trespasses and sins.
When the body is without the spirit we die. This still happens to those who, "in Christ," have been quickened.
I think we are told that still yet future there is also something called the second death.

Just what death did Christ die for? The Christ who could not die?

How could the, "physical death," of the Christ be payment for our sins that bring about, "spiritual death," and why would it be necessary to raise from the dead the physical body in incorruptible flesh and bone of the Christ?

Was the Christ,Jesus of Nazareth conceived in the virgin Mary of Spirit the God born of her flesh and blood, actually the Son of the Living God, subject to death?

That person, who was conceived by Spirit the God, who remained without sin, yet was made sin for us and could suffer death, "unqualified death," but death the wages of sin, which would require for life to be given from an outside source in order to live again.

If the Son of God could not die than we can not be saved.

 

[DHK]

If the Son of God could not die than we can not be saved.

Percho, God cannot die!
The sinless Son of Man died. His physical body died. His physical body was laid in a tomb. His physical body rose from the dead. Christ was fully God and fully man at the same time. As a man he was perfectly sinless throughout his lifetime on earth, one of the requirements that he met for being a sacrifice for our sins. He was "the just dying for the unjust that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit" (1Pet.3:18).

At one point on the cross it was as if, momentarily, God the Father turned his back on God the Son as he bore the sins of the world. That is when Christ called out: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

We believe that Christ went down to Hades (also known as Sheol in the OT). A picture of it is given in Luke 16. It is the place of the departed dead in the OT. He told the thief on the cross, "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise," a part of Sheol. He went down, and led all those there, with the thief, up to heaven with him. He did not remain there.

The other compartment is still there, called Hell. Someday death and hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev.29:11-15). Thus those who enter hell enter permanently. Its punishment is forever. "And they shall be tormented day and night forever and forever" (Rev.20:10,15).

 

[percho]

Percho, God cannot die!
The sinless Son of Man died. His physical body died. His physical body was laid in a tomb. His physical body rose from the dead. Christ was fully God and fully man at the same time. As a man he was perfectly sinless throughout his lifetime on earth, one of the requirements that he met for being a sacrifice for our sins. He was "the just dying for the unjust that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit" (1Pet.3:18).

At one point on the cross it was as if, momentarily, God the Father turned his back on God the Son as he bore the sins of the world. That is when Christ called out: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

We believe that Christ went down to Hades (also known as Sheol in the OT). A picture of it is given in Luke 16. It is the place of the departed dead in the OT. He told the thief on the cross, "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise," a part of Sheol. He went down, and led all those there, with the thief, up to heaven with him. He did not remain there.

The other compartment is still there, called Hell. Someday death and hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev.29:11-15). Thus those who enter hell enter permanently. Its punishment is forever. "And they shall be tormented day and night forever and forever" (Rev.20:10,15).

DHK the error in your post is here:

At one point on the cross it was as if, momentarily, God the Father turned his back on God the Son as he bore the sins of the world. That is when Christ called out: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

It wasn't as if, "momentarily,". It was at that very moment, Christ felt the sin of the world upon himself and he at that moment himself gave his life for our sins. He commended his spirit, his life, into the hands of the Father who had begotten him. Christ died for us. Not momentarily but for three days and three nights the Christ was dead.

The whole point of God sending his Son in the flesh was for the purpose of to be able to die. True had God sent his Son in the manner in which he raised him from the dead, that is in the spirit he would not have been able to die.
The only way you can die is to be in the flesh.

because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the (to the) spirit, 1 Peter 3:18 YLT

The Christ did not come in the spirit. Come into the world as Spirit.
The Christ came in the flesh. In the water and in the blood. 1 John 4

The Son of God was separated from his Father until the Father God raised him from the dead. The Father raised the Son from the dead by the Spirit of the Father. The Spirit is life.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus (The Son of God) from the dead dwell in you, he (God the Father) that raised up Christ (The Son of God) from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

I am the resurrection and the life. Prophesy.

By resurrection the last Adam a life giving Spirit 1C15:45 Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. V46 That is speaking of the last Adam, Christ being after the resurrection a life giving Spirit. He came into the world a living soul like Adam subject to death. He was resurrected from the dead a life giving Spirit, no more subject to death.

The Lamb of God, the Son of God was slain, would die, before the first man Adam made in the image of God was created, let alone sinned and brought death to man.

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth (makes alive) Prophesy [The Father raised Jesus the Son the last Adam from the dead a life giving Spirit] even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21

 

[DHK]

Percho,
When Christ came into this world he came as fully God and fully man.
He was God incarnate. He never gave up his deity.
When he died on the cross, he died a physical death, but God did not die, and could not die. It was the body of Jesus that died; the body of Jesus that was buried; the body of Jesus that was raised from the dead, and it is Christ in his glorified body that sits on the right hand of the throne of God ever making intercession for us. He is our advocate.

He was God and man at the same time.
The man Christ Jesus died on the cross.
God did not and never will die. It is impossible.

 

[percho]

Percho,
When Christ came into this world he came as fully God and fully man.
He was God incarnate. He never gave up his deity.
When he died on the cross, he died a physical death, but God did not die, and could not die. It was the body of Jesus that died; the body of Jesus that was buried; the body of Jesus that was raised from the dead, and it is Christ in his glorified body that sits on the right hand of the throne of God ever making intercession for us. He is our advocate.

He was God and man at the same time.
The man Christ Jesus died on the cross.
God did not and never will die. It is impossible.

1 cor 15:13,14 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then our preaching vain, and your faith also vain.
1 cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.


WHY? Why did God the Son need to be given any kind of body? He had done his job, he came in the flesh and died in the flesh. Why would he or we either as saved immortal souls ever need a body again, a body clothed in life?

Why was his death vain if he the God Man wasn't raised from the dead?

There is no purpose for the resurrection of the dead in your belief. It is just an afterthought to give one body.

 

[DHK]

1 cor 15:13,14 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then our preaching vain, and your faith also vain.
1 cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.


WHY? Why did God the Son need to be given any kind of body? He had done his job, he came in the flesh and died in the flesh. Why would he or we either as saved immortal souls ever need a body again, a body clothed in life?

Why was his death vain if he the God Man wasn't raised from the dead?

There is no purpose for the resurrection of the dead in your belief. It is just an afterthought to give one body.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
--God is spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).
--Through Jesus Christ God was revealed to mankind.

Christ, being man, was tempted in all points such as we are, and yet without sin.
Because he went through life without sin he is qualified to be our Great High Priest. He can sympathize with us.
His resurrection conquered sin, death, hell, and Satan.

When Christ comes a second time he will set up His Kingdom on earth, sit on an earthly throne and reign on this earth in a physical body.
After that he will create a new earth and a new heaven.
Even now he still has his resurrected body. And when the rapture takes place we also will receive our glorified bodies.

The answers to your questions are in the Bible. God has a plan and does things for a purpose. Who are we to question His purposes and His methods?

 

[Stevie]

Until a few weeks ago I had only in passing heard some people believe in Soul Sleep and I dismissed it as flippantly as hearing a grown adult still believes in Santa Clau

Until a few weeks ago I had only in passing heard some people believe in Soul Sleep and I dismissed it as flippantly as hearing a grown adult still believes in Santa Clause or something. Then I attended a friend of mine's sermon, who is an SDA pastor, the title of his sermon was "Are there such a thing as ghosts" To which I was intrigued because I do study and practice deliverance, and was anxious to hear how he was going to answer that one! (Yes there are spirits all around us but they are not dead relatives, etc)
He went on a 2 hour study of how (my doctrine, being Baptist and believing in immediate Heaven or Hell ) is WRONG and referenced about every wordage of 'sleep' in the old and new testament. Then said Immortality is a new doctrine and only used as comfort when loved ones die.
He was using NIV which I don't - but here was one of his defenses.
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Now, I read that and use it to my defense that, that day they met in Heaven.

This pastor said, remove the punctuation as original Greek has none, and now look at it, Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise"
Meaning, 'today' was the day he told the man, 'he will be with him in paradise' BUT Jesus did not say WHEN.
(moving the comma back one word changes everything)
Furthermore, he added, almost every instance of "I tell you this today" in scripture Jesus was just speaking in present tense, not saying all those events would happen before the sunset.

Long story short: I need some help here, as I didn't take notes, so can anyone tell me WHY we believe we go to Heaven when we die? I have looked up the original text and found the word for sleep can also mean 'dead' or 'death' so why are some people so set in the doctrine of soul sleep, and what can I have prepared in my "What I believe and Why" note cards, when I am confronted with this again.

Thank you

se or something. Then I attended a friend of mine's sermon, who is an SDA pastor, the title of his sermon was "Are there such a thing as ghosts" To which I was intrigued because I do study and practice deliverance, and was anxious to hear how he was going to answer that one! (Yes there are spirits all around us but they are not dead relatives, etc)
He went on a 2 hour study of how (my doctrine, being Baptist and believing in immediate Heaven or Hell ) is WRONG and referenced about every wordage of 'sleep' in the old and new testament. Then said Immortality is a new doctrine and only used as comfort when loved ones die.
He was using NIV which I don't - but here was one of his defenses.
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Now, I read that and use it to my defense that, that day they met in Heaven.

This pastor said, remove the punctuation as original Greek has none, and now look at it, Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise"
Meaning, 'today' was the day he told the man, 'he will be with him in paradise' BUT Jesus did not say WHEN.
(moving the comma back one word changes everything)
Furthermore, he added, almost every instance of "I tell you this today" in scripture Jesus was just speaking in present tense, not saying all those events would happen before the sunset.

Long story short: I need some help here, as I didn't take notes, so can anyone tell me WHY we believe we go to Heaven when we die? I have looked up the original text and found the word for sleep can also mean 'dead' or 'death' so why are some people so set in the doctrine of soul sleep, and what can I have prepared in my "What I believe and Why" note cards, when I am confronted with this again.

Thank you

Until a few weeks ago I had only in passing heard some people believe in Soul Sleep and I dismissed it as flippantly as hearing a grown adult still believes in Santa Clause or something. Then I attended a friend of mine's sermon, who is an SDA pastor, the title of his sermon was "Are there such a thing as ghosts" To which I was intrigued because I do study and practice deliverance, and was anxious to hear how he was going to answer that one! (Yes there are spirits all around us but they are not dead relatives, etc)
He went on a 2 hour study of how (my doctrine, being Baptist and believing in immediate Heaven or Hell ) is WRONG and referenced about every wordage of 'sleep' in the old and new testament. Then said Immortality is a new doctrine and only used as comfort when loved ones die.
He was using NIV which I don't - but here was one of his defenses.
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Now, I read that and use it to my defense that, that day they met in Heaven.

This pastor said, remove the punctuation as original Greek has none, and now look at it, Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise"
Meaning, 'today' was the day he told the man, 'he will be with him in paradise' BUT Jesus did not say WHEN.
(moving the comma back one word changes everything)
Furthermore, he added, almost every instance of "I tell you this today" in scripture Jesus was just speaking in present tense, not saying all those events would happen before the sunset.

Long story short: I need some help here, as I didn't take notes, so can anyone tell me WHY we believe we go to Heaven when we die? I have looked up the original text and found the word for sleep can also mean 'dead' or 'death' so why are some people so set in the doctrine of soul sleep, and what can I have prepared in my "What I believe and Why" note cards, when I am confronted with this again.

Thank you

I

 

[Stevie]

Before you dismiss "Soul Sleep" you may want to look at the following:
1- Do we have any evidence that Eutychus (who was raised from the dead by Paul) went to heaven between the time he died and the time when he resurrected? The answer is no.

2 - Did Jesus go to heaven immediately after the crucifixion? The answer is no.

 

[Yeshua1]

But what is my scriptural defense?

Yes I know it's a false doctrine, but what is my scripture to defend we go to Heaven (or Hell) when we die? With original text translation key words to back up my scripture? Thank you.
I know it's wrong, I just need to know now exactly what to say next time someone tells me they're going to sleep when they die.
They deny the triune nature of man I know that much.... Spirit/Soul/Body
But how do I use the Bible to back it up?
Thank you

Jesus went down into Sheol. and spoke to people, so were not asleep!

 

[Stevie]

Jesus went down into Sheol. and spoke to people, so were not asleep!

Let me get this straight.
Jesus told the thief on the cross "Verily I say unto you, today you'll be in paradise with Me". According to these words from Jesus (and all non-soul sleep believers) Jesus and the thief went to paradise/heaven after they died. Yet, when He met the women on sunday morning He told them "Do not touch me for I haven't ascended to heaven yet". Later on when He met the disciples it was okay for them to touch Him. So, only somewhere between the time that He met the women and the time that He met the disciples did He go to heaven. NOT at the time when He died in the cross.
You said that when He died He went and speak to people in Sheol. Some bible commentaries indicate that to be the fallen angels which is "kept until the day of judgement". Not humans currently on hell.