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Is Calvisnism Gnostic

Revmitchell

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The claim has been made more than one on this board. While I disagree with much of Calvinism this claim seems to be simply an over the top accusation with a spurious foundation at best. I have found no credible scholarly sources that support such a notion.

I believe that the accusation at best is nothing more than inflammatory demonization rather than a reasoned critic.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
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The claim has been made more than one on this board. While I disagree with much of Calvinism this claim seems to be simply an over the top accusation with a spurious foundation at best. I have found no credible scholarly sources that support such a notion.

I believe that the accusation at best is nothing more than inflammatory demonization rather than a reasoned critic.

Read Philip J. Lee's Against the Protestant Gnostics.

Other sources

Augustine was attracted to the philosophy of Neoplatonism. He blended these beliefs with his later Gnostic Christian teachings. His teachings were in turn passed on to John Calvin in his extensive study of Augustine's writings. It is very easy to follow the trail of John Calvin's theology from the pagan religion of Mani in Babylonia to his writings in France and Geneva.

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/gnostic-christianity-faq.htm


The Gnostics and Calvinists
on Elect

The Gnostics on Elect:Clement says: “These quotations I have adduced in reproof of the Basilidians [Gnostics],
who do not live rightly, either as having power (exousian) to sin because of their
perfection, or as being altogether assured by nature of future salvation, although they sin
now, because they are by dignity of nature the elect.”

The Calvinists on Elect:
Muller says: “Only the elect are therefore effectively called.” Steele and Thomas make the following observation: “The doctrine of election declares that God, before the foundation of the world, chose certain individuals from among the fallen members of Adam’s race to be the objects of His undeserved favor. These, and these only, He purposed to save. He chose to save some and exclude others.

http://www.libraryoftheology.com/writings/calvinismarminianism/TheGnosticismOfCalvinism-Lavender.pdf

You can find much more by doing some research.
 

Revmitchell

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Read Philip J. Lee's Against the Protestant Gnostics.

Other sources






You can find much more by doing some research.

Nothing you have posted is either new to me or scholarly in nature. But they are caustic and rather sophomoric. They have no credibility what soever.
 

Winman

Active Member
The claim has been made more than one on this board. While I disagree with much of Calvinism this claim seems to be simply an over the top accusation with a spurious foundation at best. I have found no credible scholarly sources that support such a notion.

I believe that the accusation at best is nothing more than inflammatory demonization rather than a reasoned critic.

What do you consider credible? One can simply do a Google search and see that Calvinism has been associated with Gnosticism by many. Calvin's greatest influence was Augustine, and Augustine was both a Manichaen and Gnostic for a period of his life. Many scholars have written that Augustine was greatly influenced by both Manichaen and Gnostic teachings.

For nine years, Augustine was a Manichean, a devotee of of the teachings of Mani, founder of a Persian moral cult. Like the Gnostics of the first century, Mani and his followers were dualistic, teaching that the flesh was sinful and impure, while the spirit was light and life. As a Manichean, this teaching was a comfort to Augustine, as it let him blame his continued sexual sin on his lower fleshy nature, but still be moral by emphasizing the separateness of flesh and spirit.

Augustine's years with the Manicheans left its impact on the Church, as he brought this teaching into the the Church through his teaching on Original Sin. A. T. Overstreet, in his on-line book, "Are Men Born Sinners?, The Myth of Original Sin," notes:

Augustine's nine years with them [the Maniceans] accustomed him to regard human nature as essentially evil and human freedom as a delusion. Augustine next fell under the influence of Neo-Platonism, and his theological views were strongly influenced by this philosophy as well. However, his doctrine of sin shows the obvious influence of the Gnostic teachings of Manichaeism, in which he assumes the most ridiculous teaching of all the heathen philosophies the teaching that matter can be sinful. And this is the source of his doctrine that sin can be passed on physically from one person to another.

Harnack says:

We have, finally, in Augustine's doctrine of sin a strong Manichaean and Gnostic element; for Augustine never wholly surmounted Manichaeism.

and...

Augustine's doctrine of sin, with his belief in the inherent sinfulness of the physical constitution, is wholly Manichaean. His idea that sin is propagated through the marriage union, that sexual desire is sin and that sexual lust in procreation transmits sin is also Manichaean. Augustine built his doctrine of original sin upon this premise that sexual lust in procreation transmits sin.

You can deny that those who claim Calvinism is founded upon Gnostic teachings is credible, but you cannot deny that MANY have claimed this.
 

Revmitchell

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What do you consider credible? One can simply do a Google search and see that Calvinism has been associated with Gnosticism by many. Calvin's greatest influence was Augustine, and Augustine was both a Manichaen and Gnostic for a period of his life. Many scholars have written that Augustine was greatly influenced by both Manichaen and Gnostic teachings.



You can deny that those who claim Calvinism is founded upon Gnostic teachings is credible, but you cannot deny that MANY have claimed this.

You need to source your quote.
 

Winman

Active Member
You need to source your quote.

That particular quote came from this article;


http://www.gospeltruth.net/aug/sinsofaug.htm

But simply Google Calvinism Gnostic and you can literally find dozens of articles all associating Calvinism with Gnosticism.

http://www.libraryoftheology.com/writings/calvinismarminianism/TheGnosticismOfCalvinism-Lavender.pdf

http://orthodoxbridge.com/response-to-robin-philipps-are-calvinists-also-among-the-gnostics/

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/neo_gnostic.html

I could list dozens more. So obviously this is a serious question.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What do you consider credible? One can simply do a Google search and see that Calvinism has been associated with Gnosticism by many. Calvin's greatest influence was Augustine, and Augustine was both a Manichaen and Gnostic for a period of his life. Many scholars have written that Augustine was greatly influenced by both Manichaen and Gnostic teachings.



You can deny that those who claim Calvinism is founded upon Gnostic teachings is credible, but you cannot deny that MANY have claimed this.

Would say that calvinism is based/founded upon the views of the Apostle paul, and the Lord jesus...

You can freely disagree with HOW we have intepreted what they said regarding salvation method, but NOT that it was not based on the Bible itself!
 

Winman

Active Member
Would say that calvinism is based/founded upon the views of the Apostle paul, and the Lord jesus...

You can freely disagree with HOW we have intepreted what they said regarding salvation method, but NOT that it was not based on the Bible itself!


No, I would not. I believe that Calvinism REVERSES what Paul taught. Calvinism often teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Paul taught in scriptures. I have pointed this out dozens of times, you know that.
 

Revmitchell

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That particular quote came from this article;


http://www.gospeltruth.net/aug/sinsofaug.htm

But simply Google Calvinism Gnostic and you can literally find dozens of articles all associating Calvinism with Gnosticism.

http://www.libraryoftheology.com/writings/calvinismarminianism/TheGnosticismOfCalvinism-Lavender.pdf

http://orthodoxbridge.com/response-to-robin-philipps-are-calvinists-also-among-the-gnostics/

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/neo_gnostic.html

I could list dozens more. So obviously this is a serious question.

As I said before these links are not new to me. Anyone can create a web page and post their views. That in and of itself is not compelling. Neither is having multiple people share the same view.

Please show me a scholarly paper published only after having been sourced by anyone in theological circles. Written in a format such as MLA, APA, or Turabian. Not just web sites created by any old Tom, Sam, and Harry. They are nothing but poorly written opinion pieces.
 
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Earth Wind and Fire

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As I said before these links are not new to me. Anyone can create a web page and post their views. That in and of itself is not compelling. Neither is having multiple people share the same view.

Please show me a scholarly paper published only after having been sourced by anyone in theological circles. Written in a format such as MLA, APA, or Turabian. Not just web sites created by any old Tom, Sam, and Harry. They are nothing but poorly written opinion pieces.



Ahhhh, Thank you, thank you & thank you!:applause:
 

Winman

Active Member
As I said before these links are not new to me. Anyone can create a web page and post their views. That in and of itself is not compelling. Neither is having multiple people share the same view.

Please show me a scholarly paper published only after having been sourced by anyone in theological circles. Written in a format such as MLA, APA, or Turabian. Not just web sites created by any old Tom, Sam, and Harry. They are nothing but poorly written opinion pieces.

I'm not going to do your homework for you, do a simple Google search and you can find dozens of articles associating Calvinism with Gnosticism. You can decide for yourself if any of these articles are scholarly. I get the impression you will dismiss them all.

Again, Calvin's greatest influence was Augustine, and many scholars agree that Augustine was heavily influenced by Manichaen and Gnostic beliefs. If you choose to disregard this truth, that is your choice.
 

Revmitchell

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I'm not going to do your homework for you, do a simple Google search and you can find dozens of articles associating Calvinism with Gnosticism. You can decide for yourself if any of these articles are scholarly. I get the impression you will dismiss them all.

If you are going to make the claim then you have a responsibility to back it up with credible sources. I cna promise you one thing that is a scholarly source written in a scholarly format is presented it will be considered.

The point I am making is that there are no credible sources who holds to this inflammatory and sophomoric notion. Those who do hold to it are only wanting to find the most possible and strongest means to demonize Calvinism and it is not honest.

Again, Calvin's greatest influence was Augustine, and many scholars agree that Augustine was heavily influenced by Manichaen and Gnostic beliefs. If you choose to disregard this truth, that is your choice.


Making such a statement does not provide any evidence to your claim. And since you are not willing to do your own research but are willing to buy into anyone who makes a claim that looks most damaging to that with which you disagree then you are willing to be the water carrier for it.

This behavior does not give an avenue for reasonable discussion but only works to poke a finger in the eye of those you disagree with. It is this type of junk that causes so much of the fuss on this board.
 

Winman

Active Member
I did not start this thread, why do I have to defend myself against your claim? You said you do not consider anyone who claims Calvinism is Gnostic credible. How am I supposed to convince you that a writer is credible, you can dismiss whoever you wish and have already.

I might show you 100 articles from known scholars, you could poo-poo them all.

Here is a page with many, many quotes from scholars, whether you find them credible is up to you.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Articles/History.html

It is like doubting Thomas, all the disciples said they had seen Jesus, but he refused to believe. I can show you a thousand articles relating Calvinism to Gnosticism, but if you refuse to believe you cannot be convinced.
 

Revmitchell

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I did not start this thread, why do I have to defend myself against your claim?

Because you responded in opposition.

You said you do not consider anyone who claims Calvinism is Gnostic credible. How am I supposed to convince you that a writer is credible, you can dismiss whoever you wish and have already.

I have made that clear already. Please see my previous posts.

I might show you 100 articles from known scholars, you could poo-poo them all.

I have addressed this as well. Please see my previous posts.

Here is a page with many, many quotes from scholars, whether you find them credible is up to you.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Articles/History.html

Yes this Jesse fella seems to be the primary source of this idea. When you do a google search on "is Calvinism Gnostic" in the first 5 or 6 pages most of the links go to him.

It is like doubting Thomas, all the disciples said they had seen Jesus, but he refused to believe. I can show you a thousand articles relating Calvinism to Gnosticism, but if you refuse to believe you cannot be convinced.

But you cannot show me one scholarly article that is sourced in a credible format and would be accepted by say a Seminary professor.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
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I did not start this thread, why do I have to defend myself against your claim? You said you do not consider anyone who claims Calvinism is Gnostic credible. How am I supposed to convince you that a writer is credible, you can dismiss whoever you wish and have already.

I might show you 100 articles from known scholars, you could poo-poo them all.

Here is a page with many, many quotes from scholars, whether you find them credible is up to you.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Articles/History.html

It is like doubting Thomas, all the disciples said they had seen Jesus, but he refused to believe. I can show you a thousand articles relating Calvinism to Gnosticism, but if you refuse to believe you cannot be convinced.

You are correct. Also Rev. never cites credible sources and almost never answers questions. He makes opinionated comments, but does not back them up.

In this thread he began he gives his opinion, refuses to consider answers given, but does not give citations supporting his position ... whatever that is at the moment.

Frankly I believe the whole subject is new to him as are the links and sources given.

My reply will not receive a reasoned reply. I expect an insulting or attempted insulting reply.
 

Winman

Active Member
Because you responded in opposition.



I have made that clear already. Please see my previous posts.



I have addressed this as well. Please see my previous posts.



Yes this Jesse fella seems to be the primary source of this idea. When you do a google search on "is Calvinism Gnostic" in the first 5 or 6 pages most of the links go to him.



But you cannot show me one scholarly article that is sourced in a credible format and would be accepted by say a Seminary professor.

I am not big on reading "scholars", I read and quote the Bible. But even I know that many have associated Calvinism with Augustine and his Manichaen and Gnostic beliefs. That is simple FACT.

You know, if one or two people told you a UFO landed behind City Hall, you have good reason to dismiss their claim. But if thousands of people run by you all shouting that a UFO has just landed behind City Hall, I would begin to consider it credible.

All you have to do is study Gnosticism itself and see how similar it is to Calvinism.

From the 3rd century to the 12th century, some Gnostic religions such as Manichaeism, which combined Christian, Hebrew and Buddhist influences (Mani, the founder of the religion, resided for some time in Kushan lands),[123] spread throughout the Old World, to Gaul and Great Britain in the West, and to China in the East. Augustine of Hippo, like some other leading Christian theologians, was Manichaean before converting to orthodox Christianity.[124][125]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
 

Revmitchell

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Now wikipedia good grief.

While wiki is sourced no scholarly field accepts them as a legitimate source. And there are many reasons for that.

You refer to other people who make the same claim as you but refuse to accept scholarly sources?

A rather inconsistent position. And it is false that you rely mainly on scripture with regards to this issue.

It is clear you cannot back up your claim in a reasonable way

I have access to a couple of online scholarly libraries. I am going to see if I can find anything on this next week.
 
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Winman

Active Member
Now wikipedia good grief.

While wiki is sourced no scholarly field accepts them as a legitimate source. And there are many reasons for that.

You refer to other people who make the same claim as you but refuse to accept scholarly sources?

A rather inconsistent position. And it is false that you rely mainly on scripture with regards to this issue.

It is clear you cannot back up your claim in a reasonable way

I have access to a couple of online scholarly libraries. I am going to see if I can find anything on this next week.

I agree that Wiki is not the most reliable source. That said, you can often find good information there. I simply showed that Wiki shows that Augustine was both a Manichaen and a Gnostic for years.

I hope you do spend some time studying this subject, because then you will come back and admit that Calvinism was greatly influenced by the Gnosticism of Augustine.

By the way, you should listen to that 2nd video by Jesse Morrell. I do not agree with everything he believes, but he is a very knowledgeable fellow who quotes many scholars in that video. Give it a look and see for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhLF-llpFX0
 
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Revmitchell

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I agree that Wiki is not the most reliable source. That said, you can often find good information there. I simply showed that Wiki shows that Augustine was both a Manichaen and a Gnostic for years.

I hope you do spend some time studying this subject, because then you will come back and admit that Calvinism was greatly influenced by the Gnosticism of Augustine.

By the way, you should listen to that 2nd video by Jesse Morrell. I do not agree with everything he believes, but he is a very knowledgeable fellow who quotes many scholars in that video. Give it a look and see for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhLF-llpFX0

I have already looked at quite a bit of his stuff.

The bigger problem is whether or not Augustine was at all influenced by Gnosticism does not prove any relationship between Calvinism and Gnosticism. It is a week link at best.
 
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