Is Calvisnism Gnostic

[Revmitchell]

You have refuted nothing.

You have been given sources. If you want to deny the truth, you argue against historical evidence, not against me.

Everyone from interested laypeople to scholars knows that Augustine's theology was influenced by Manichaesm and Neoplatonism, and this in turn was highly influential in the RCC and in Calvinism.

Most of the errors in Western Christian thought can be traced to Augustine.

I have been given no credible sources. Only opinion pieces.

Here is your argument:

Augustine was once a Gnostic. Augustine influenced Calvinism. Therefore Calvinism was influenced by Gnosticism. It is a formal fallacy and a poor debate tactic. Most importantly it is not honest.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I have been given no credible sources. Only opinion pieces.

Here is your argument:

Augustine was once a Gnostic. Augustine influenced Calvinism. Therefore Calvinism was influenced by Gnosticism. It is a formal fallacy and a poor debate tactic. Most importantly it is not honest.

You have been given sources and facts. I am a Christian historian, and I know what I'm talking about. Go to any Christian scholar, though, and deny the facts I have shown about Augustine, and he/she will laugh in your face.

Keep repeating those last two lines until you're blue in the face. It can't change historical fact.

 

[Revmitchell]

You have been given sources and facts. I am a Christian historian, and I know what I'm talking about. Go to any Christian scholar, though, and deny the facts I have shown about Augustine, and he/she will laugh in your face.

Keep repeating those last two lines until you're blue in the face. It can't change historical fact.

A Christian historian would have academic sources. You have none. What you do have is a large emotional disdain which drives these false accusations. And claiming it is a historical fact does not make it so. Especially when it is based on a formal fallacy.

 

[Winman]

Their effect on his thought and emotions was enormous. Down to 397, that is, until he was forty-three, Manicheism was his overriding preoccupation. In the ten years following his reconversion to Catholicism, anti-Manichean tracts poured from his pen; the longest of all his controversial works, the thirty-three books of the Reply to Faustus the Manichean (written c. 400), was devoted to the same end. Yet the legacy in his theology is not easy to define. First, however, he retained a lasting sense of personal worthlessness. No meritorious action could come without grace. In this the Christian elect would differ little from the Manichee “elect.” Their “image” as the Coptic Manichee would have said, had been chosen out — predestined to grace and salvation. The rest of humanity, the “unredeemed mass” (Augustine retained the Manichean term), was destined for possession by the Devil and eternal fire.12

Frend, Rise of Christianity, 662-663.

Note the similarity to Calvinism, certain persons are elect and chosen out, predestined to grace and salvation, while the rest were destined for possession by the Devil and eternal fire.

It is interesting to note Augustine’s change of position on freedom of the will in two bitter controversies. Against the Manicheans he argued that man in the present is able both to will and to do either good or evil, but in the controversy with the Pelagians he argues that man can will evil only and that he cannot do good except by the aid of God’s grace.27

Guy H. Ranson, “Augustine’s Account of the Nature and Origin of Moral Evil,” The Review and Expositor 50 1953 : 309-322

When confronting Gnostics Augustine argued free will, but when confronting Pelagius Augustine denied free will, the foundation of Total Inability and Calvinism.

Frend comments that “Augustine’s nine years as a Manichee were reasserting themselves” in his late battles against Julian,41 who himself said, “Just as an Ethiopian could not change his skin or a leopard change his spots, nor could he, Augustine, change his Manichaeism.

Frend, The Rise of Christianity, 679

Here is a scholar who said Augustine's theology was influenced by his years as a Manichaen.

Of course, you will simply deny that this is evidence that Augustine and Calvin were influenced by Gnostic teachings.

 

[Winman]

You have refuted nothing.

You have been given sources. If you want to deny the truth, you argue against historical evidence, not against me.

Everyone from interested laypeople to scholars knows that Augustine's theology was influenced by Manichaesm and Neoplatonism, and this in turn was highly influential in the RCC and in Calvinism.

Most of the errors in Western Christian thought can be traced to Augustine.

I absolutely agree, Augustine is the primary source of most of the great errors in Christianity. Calvin simply plagiarized Augustine.

 

[Eliyahu]

I absolutely agree, Augustine is the primary source of most of the great errors in Christianity. Calvin simply plagiarized Augustine.

I think so.


Calvin quoted Augustine over 400 times in his institutes of Christian Religion.

As John Wesley said < Calvinism is a Blasphemy to God>

What would be the human efforts of preaching Gospel to the people whom God predestined not to believe in the Gospel and in Jesus Christ and thereby to send to the Lake of Fire?

Preaching the Gospel to the people whom God predestined not to believe, must be a rebellion to God.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

A Christian historian would have academic sources. You have none. What you do have is a large emotional disdain which drives these false accusations. And claiming it is a historical fact does not make it so. Especially when it is based on a formal fallacy.

Do the research yourself. Are you afraid of the results? I have plenty of sources, but I won't do the work for you or even share them with you because you don't deserve it. And your spouting off about fallacies and such is just your hollow opinion, nothing more. And it is both hollow and an opinion because history shoots it down. I know you wish those weren't the facts and that you could change them, but no amount of whining, protesting, wishful thinking, and accusing can do that.

It is an established fact that Augustine was influenced by his pagan, Manichaen past and by Neoplatonic philosophy, and that influence was passed along to Roman Catholicism and to Calvin. Further, all Magisterial Protestantism was influenced by it; the only ones mostly escaping it were the Wesleyans, Anabaptists and their spiritual kin like the Quakers, and General Baptists. Of course Eastern Orthodoxy is decidedly non-Augustinian.

I have been challenged before to post scholarly evidence by people who claimed I didn't have any, so I did it and shut them up. But I don't like your tone, so I'll let you keep talking and digging that hole deeper and deeper.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I absolutely agree, Augustine is the primary source of most of the great errors in Christianity. Calvin simply plagiarized Augustine.

Correct, and Augustinian theology has been highly influential in the RCC.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The belief in the depravity of man was not introduced until the 3rd or 4th century. Gnostics had believed that from their beginning.

Yet a study of history reveals that the doctrine of free will was universally taught by the Early Church, without exception, for the first three to four hundred years. The Early Church was continually defending the doctrine of free will and refuting the Gnostic’s who held to the doctrine of total inability and determinism or fatalism.

http://openairoutreach.wordpress.co...ine-corrupt-the-church-with-gnostic-doctrine/

Many more links could be cited, but those below are enough for now:

Calvinism False Doctrines, Depravity, Election, Atonement ...
www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm - Přeložit tuto stránku
Calvin is continually praising Augustine's work with numerous references and quotations. Augustine was greatly influenced by the Gnostics, an early Christian ...
Calvinism: Spiritual Fusion - Article 8 of 11
www.carylmatrisciana.com/.../index.php?... - Přeložit tuto stránku
Gnosticism elevated knowledge or 'gnosis' as the means to achieve salvation. .... Similar to John Calvin's "conversion", Augustine's conversion was not to the ...
Augustine+gnosticism, Pelagius | Bjorkbloggen
bjorkbloggen.wordpress.com/.../augustinegnostic... - Přeložit tuto stránku
25. 1. 2013 – This entry was posted on 2012/04/05, in *ENGLISH, Augustine+gnosticism, Pelagius and tagged augustine, Calvin, devil, dualism, gnostic, ...
Augustine, the former gnostic, and his many heretical views ...
bjorkbloggen.wordpress.com/.../augustine-the-fo... - Přeložit tuto stránku
3. 4. 2012 – This entry was posted on 2012/04/03, in *ENGLISH, Augustine+gnosticism, Pelagius and tagged augustine, Calvin, catholic, church, church ...
[PDF]
The Gnosticism of Calvinism - Library of Theology
www.libraryoftheology.com/.../calvinismarminia... - Přeložit tuto stránku
Formát souboru: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Rychlé zobrazení
The Reformation, of the Luther/Calvin kind, gave the church a heavy dose of Roman Catholicism, through Anselm's penal atonement and through. Augustine's ...

Gnostic Christianity
www.allaboutreligion.org/gnostic-christianity-faq... - Přeložit tuto stránku
He blended these beliefs with his later Gnostic Christian teachings. His teachings were in turn passed on to John Calvin in his extensive study of Augustine's ...
Calvinism is a Gnostic sect | Pious Fabrications
www.piousfabrications.com/.../calvinism-is-gnost... - Přeložit tuto stránku
3. 1. 2010 – An example of such a flawed, Gnostic-tinged theology is Augustine's ... Protestant, achieving their fullest form in the theology of John Calvin.

 

[Iconoclast]

Nothing you have posted is either new to me or scholarly in nature. But they are caustic and rather sophomoric. They have no credibility what soever.

Thank you for being objective:thumbsup:

Making such a statement does not provide any evidence to your claim. And since you are not willing to do your own research but are willing to buy into anyone who makes a claim that looks most damaging to that with which you disagree then you are willing to be the water carrier for it.

This behavior does not give an avenue for reasonable discussion but only works to poke a finger in the eye of those you disagree with. It is this type of junk that causes so much of the fuss on this board.

Correct and well said!

By the way Augustine came to eventually teach against Manichaeism

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Thank you for being objective:thumbsup:

:laugh: :laugh:

He wouldn't recognize objectivity or acknowledge historical facts if they bit him in the posterior.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think so.


Calvin quoted Augustine over 400 times in his institutes of Christian Religion.

As John Wesley said < Calvinism is a Blasphemy to God>

What would be the human efforts of preaching Gospel to the people whom God predestined not to believe in the Gospel and in Jesus Christ and thereby to send to the Lake of Fire?

Preaching the Gospel to the people whom God predestined not to believe, must be a rebellion to God.

Hello ELIYAHU,

This statement shows you do not understand the teaching you are attempting to discuss.

 

[Iconoclast]

:laugh:

He wouldn't recognize objectivity or acknowledge historical facts if they bit him in the posterior.

He started out saying that he has much disagreement with Calvinism.In other words he has "no horse" in this race.In fact he might enjoy if someone could convince him with facts.
that is objective as I see it.He see's through this nonsense and I respect him for that particularly in that he is not looking to defend the teaching, just seeking truth.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Crabtownboy]

Prove that is what he did. The fact that he preached against Gnosticism later disproves your unsubstantiated claim.

Check the following and see how these directly from Gnosticism fit into Calvin's elect and non-elect:

Calvinism: Spiritual Fusion - Article 8 of 11
www.carylmatrisciana.com / ... / index.php? ... - Translate this page
The Manicheans Their followers Divided into two groups , the " elect "and the hearers . The " elect " ... During HIS years in the cult, Augustine remained a hearer .
Define Manichaeism | Dictionary and Thesaurus
manichaeism.askdefine.com / - Translate this page
It was Purchased by the University of Cologne in 1969, and two of its scientists ... According to the Confessions of Wed Augustine , after eight or nine years of ... the idea of hell, the separation of groups into elect , hearers , and sinners , and the ...
Patrick Comerford: Lust, sex, original sin and war: Augustine and ...
revpatrickcomerford.blogspot.com / ... / sex-lust-ori ... - Translate this page
20th 11th 2011 - Augustine was Bishop of Hippo Regius, present-day Annaba in ... the separation of groups into elect , hearers , and sinners , and his .... Augustine saw the human being as a perfect unity of two Substances: soul and Points.
Augustine - Fromdeathtolife.org
fromdeathtolife.org/cphil/good2.html - Translate this page
He did not Consider the differences as a clash of two fundamentally different views of reality, and he ... were obligated only for the elect , not for the " hearers ", it Which group Augustine belonged. .... This is true of of the righteous and the sinner .
[PDF]
Confessions of a Justified Sinner - Glasgow Theses Service ...
theses.gla.ac.uk/1799/01/2005munrophd.pdfFile Format: PDF / Adobe Acrobat 8th First 2013 - It Takes into account the Rhetorical sIdll and art of Augustine , and That's central Augustine's ... Chapter two : The Cmfesskm in Historical Context. 19 ..... We must try to Affect the hearers attitude by appealing to future Advantages ..... The Donatists were a protest group That Arosa in North Africa at the Beginning ...

Manichean - Everything2.com
everything2.com/title/Manichean - United States - Translate this page
14th 6th 2001 - ... of Mani, were split into two groups : the " hearers "and the" elect . ... Wed Augustine served as a hearer of the Manicheans for nine years, but got ...
Manichaeism, Manichaeism
mb-soft.com/believe/txn/manichae.htm - Translate this page
This triple seal Applies only to the elect or pure; hearers follow and less ... Especially Opposition was strong in Africa under Augustine , Who for nine years and had been Hearer . ... failed, he traveled to India, where he founded HIS first in religious group . ... As the theory of two eternal principles, good and evil, is predominant in this ...

 

[Thomas Helwys]

He started out saying that he has much disagreement with Calvinism.In other words he has "no horse" in this race.In fact he might enjoy if someone could convince him with facts.
that is objective as I see it.He see's through this nonsense and I respect him for that particularly in that he is not looking to defend the teaching, just seeking truth.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

His posts prove that he is not seeking truth. That's easy to see.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Check the following and see how these directly from Gnosticism fit into Calvin's elect and non-elect:

Calvinism: Spiritual Fusion - Article 8 of 11
www.carylmatrisciana.com / ... / index.php? ... - Translate this page
The Manicheans Their followers Divided into two groups , the " elect "and the hearers . The " elect " ... During HIS years in the cult, Augustine remained a hearer .
Define Manichaeism | Dictionary and Thesaurus
manichaeism.askdefine.com / - Translate this page
It was Purchased by the University of Cologne in 1969, and two of its scientists ... According to the Confessions of Wed Augustine , after eight or nine years of ... the idea of hell, the separation of groups into elect , hearers , and sinners , and the ...
Patrick Comerford: Lust, sex, original sin and war: Augustine and ...
revpatrickcomerford.blogspot.com / ... / sex-lust-ori ... - Translate this page
20th 11th 2011 - Augustine was Bishop of Hippo Regius, present-day Annaba in ... the separation of groups into elect , hearers , and sinners , and his .... Augustine saw the human being as a perfect unity of two Substances: soul and Points.
Augustine - Fromdeathtolife.org
fromdeathtolife.org/cphil/good2.html - Translate this page
He did not Consider the differences as a clash of two fundamentally different views of reality, and he ... were obligated only for the elect , not for the " hearers ", it Which group Augustine belonged. .... This is true of of the righteous and the sinner .
[PDF]
Confessions of a Justified Sinner - Glasgow Theses Service ...
theses.gla.ac.uk/1799/01/2005munrophd.pdfFile Format: PDF / Adobe Acrobat 8th First 2013 - It Takes into account the Rhetorical sIdll and art of Augustine , and That's central Augustine's ... Chapter two : The Cmfesskm in Historical Context. 19 ..... We must try to Affect the hearers attitude by appealing to future Advantages ..... The Donatists were a protest group That Arosa in North Africa at the Beginning ...

Manichean - Everything2.com
everything2.com/title/Manichean - United States - Translate this page
14th 6th 2001 - ... of Mani, were split into two groups : the " hearers "and the" elect . ... Wed Augustine served as a hearer of the Manicheans for nine years, but got ...
Manichaeism, Manichaeism
mb-soft.com/believe/txn/manichae.htm - Translate this page
This triple seal Applies only to the elect or pure; hearers follow and less ... Especially Opposition was strong in Africa under Augustine , Who for nine years and had been Hearer . ... failed, he traveled to India, where he founded HIS first in religious group . ... As the theory of two eternal principles, good and evil, is predominant in this ...

Thanks for your posts.

I can't believe I'm still here trying to convince someone of the facts about Augustine, facts which I knew decades ago. I find it amazing that anyone would dispute this, as it's common knowledge among theologians and church historians, and also easily verifiable by anyone. It just shows that when anyone has presuppositions that they don't want changed, no amount of facts and evidence will move them. So be it. But I appreciate your effort.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Tom, your not successful because your presentation stinks. Had you showed scholarly evidence up front, you would have established credibility....but you didn't do that. You did however act like a juvenile & added commentary that was insulting.... so what do you expect! Sorry but you are a very poor persuader. :tear:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Tom, your not successful because your presentation stinks. Had you showed scholarly evidence up front, you would have established credibility....but you didn't do that. You did however act like a juvenile & added commentary that was insulting.... so what do you expect! Sorry but you are a very poor persuader. :tear:

And from reading your posts, I thought you were one who liked and desired straight talk. Is that only when it agrees with you? That's a serious question.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I'm interested in objective facts and presenting those. Whether someone kicks against them, screams and cries or attacks because they can't accept them is not my problem. I don't post to attack or be attacked, but some can't help it, I guess. Sometimes I let it go, and sometimes I don't.

One reason I have come to like you is because you do talk straight and sometimes with a sense of humor. I won't change my opinion whatever you say about me.

 

[Yeshua1]

Tom, your not successful because your presentation stinks. Had you showed scholarly evidence up front, you would have established credibility....but you didn't do that. You did however act like a juvenile & added commentary that was insulting.... so what do you expect! Sorry but you are a very poor persuader. :tear:

Think that the basic premise here being presented is very flawed in regards to thsoe trying to link calvin and others to Gnostic sources...

John Calvin took his doctrines and teaching prime sourced the holy Bible...

Disagree with how he interpreted them, but do NOT say that he invention something from Gnostic or nothing!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Think that the basic premise here being presented is very flawed in regards to thsoe trying to link calvin and others to Gnostic sources...

John Calvin took his doctrines and teaching prime sourced the holy Bible...

Disagree with how he interpreted them, but do NOT say that he invention something from Gnostic or nothing!

John Calvin was strongly influence by Augustine, there's no doubt about that.