Is Calvisnism Gnostic

[Revmitchell]

Think that the basic premise here being presented is very flawed in regards to thsoe trying to link calvin and others to Gnostic sources...

John Calvin took his doctrines and teaching prime sourced the holy Bible...

Disagree with how he interpreted them, but do NOT say that he invention something from Gnostic or nothing!

They are trying to say connect the dots.

The dots they have given arre as follows:


Augustine was once a gnostic>because he was once a gnostic gnosticism influenced his views on scripture and the kingdom of God>Augustine influenced Calvin>any doctrine Calvin had was influenced by gnosticism because of augustines influence on him>therefore calvins doctrines are gnostic


It is a formal fallacy.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

They are trying to say connect the dots.

The dots they have given arre as follows:


Augustine was once a gnostic>because he was once a gnostic gnosticism influenced his views on scripture and the kingdom of God>Augustine influenced Calvin>any doctrine Calvin had was influenced by gnosticism because of augustines influence on him>therefore calvins doctrines are gnostic


It is a formal fallacy.

Oh, now, Rev, don't make it so hard. See, here is how it works. You study what Augustine taught and where that came from, what influenced his teachings. You see that Calvin was strongly influenced by Augustine. Then you examine Calvin's beliefs to see if they have anything in common with Augustine's background and influences. You discover that they assuredly do. The common denominator is the influences of both men. Since these views were unknown before Calvin and Augustine and not taught by scripture and the early churches, voila! Manichaesm and Neoplatonic philosophy are the influences that Augustine's teachings and Calvin's teachings have in common. Better known in math as 2+2=4.

Therefore, based on impeccable logic, historical evidence, and theology, the case is irrefutably made.

Sorry, you lose. Better luck next time.

 

[Revmitchell]

Oh, now, Rev, don't make it so hard. See, here is how it works. You study what Augustine taught and where that came from, what influenced his teachings. You see that Calvin was strongly influenced by Augustine. Then you examine Calvin's beliefs to see if they have anything in common with Augustine's background and influences. You discover that they assuredly do. The common denominator is the influences of both men. Since these views were unknown before Calvin and Augustine and not taught by scripture and the early churches, voila! Manichaesm and Neoplatonic philosophy are the influences that Augustine's teachings and Calvin's teachings have in common. Better known in math as 2+2=4.

Therefore, based on impeccable logic, historical evidence, and theology, the case is irrefutably made.

Sorry, you lose. Better luck next time.

Based on a formal fallacy. No direct link. One does not automatically lead to the other. And it is a false witness.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Based on a formal fallacy. No direct link. One does not automatically lead to the other. And it is a false witness.

The clear evidence is there. It cannot be dismissed. Anyone who has studied it can't help but see the truth of it. They might deny it, but they can't help but see it.

More evidence for the truth of this is the difference between Lutheranism and Calvinism. Both were influenced by Augustine, but the influence on Lutheranism was only in the area of total depravity and original sin. This was not akin to the Manichaesm and Neoplatonic philosophy of Augustine. And in Lutheranism there was no disconnect or separation of body and soul and no regarding of the flesh as evil as in the Manichaesm and Neoplatonic philosophy of Augustine. But in Calvinism there was. This lead to the extreme asceticism of Calvinism.

The evidence is crystal clear.

 

[Iconoclast]

The clear evidence is there. It cannot be dismissed. Anyone who has studied it can't help but see the truth of it. They might deny it, but they can't help but see it.

More evidence for the truth of this is the difference between Lutheranism and Calvinism. Both were influenced by Augustine, but the influence on Lutheranism was only in the area of total depravity and original sin. This was not akin to the Manichaesm and Neoplatonic philosophy of Augustine. And in Lutheranism there was no disconnect or separation of body and soul and no regarding of the flesh as evil as in the Manichaesm and Neoplatonic philosophy of Augustine. But in Calvinism there was. This lead to the extreme asceticism of Calvinism.

The evidence is crystal clear.

TH-
The only evidence that is clear is you have not even began to make a scriptural case for your assertions.You speculate on what might have been from some historical writing about dead men, but you do not address the scriptures themself which were God given along with the TRUTH that Jesus taught which is doctrinally known as calvinism.
Why not try and present your biblical case? Archangel and Herald already exposed this in previous posts.:wavey:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

TH-
The only evidence that is clear is you have not even began to make a scriptural case for your assertions.You speculate on what might have been from some historical writing about dead men, but you do not address the scriptures themself which were God given along with the TRUTH that Jesus taught which is doctrinally known as calvinism.
Why not try and present your biblical case? Archangel and Herald already exposed this in previous posts.:wavey:

They have exposed nothing.

It is so ludicrous to claim that Jesus taught Calvinism that I am not going to waste my time trying to prove He didn't, with all due respect to you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

TH-
The only evidence that is clear is you have not even began to make a scriptural case for your assertions.You speculate on what might have been from some historical writing about dead men, but you do not address the scriptures themself which were God given along with the TRUTH that Jesus taught which is doctrinally known as calvinism.
Why not try and present your biblical case? Archangel and Herald already exposed this in previous posts.:wavey:

Tom, you have to offer evidence here & dissect it as proof.... otherwise whatever you say will continue to be looked upon as subjective. Make a thorough forensic case brother.

 

[Iconoclast]

They have exposed nothing.

It is so ludicrous to claim that Jesus taught Calvinism that I am not going to waste my time trying to prove He didn't, with all due respect to you.

All "5 points " can be clearly seen in the gospel of John alone.Easily:wavey:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All "5 points " can be clearly seen in the gospel of John alone.Easily:wavey:

The burden of proof is yours Tony....I know you type slow though.

 

[Iconoclast]

The burden of proof is yours Tony....I know you type slow though.

Which truth do have trouble seeing in Jesus own words?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Which truth do have trouble seeing in Jesus own words?

I mean spell it out for him.... not me, I already agree.....or not/ your call.

 

[Iconoclast]

I mean spell it out for him.... not me, I already agree.....or not/ your call.

If he asks I will.Actually he has started to in the other thread:thumbs: We can have a profitable interaction as he is not a novice and says that he has done this many times.

 

[Yeshua1]

They have exposed nothing.

It is so ludicrous to claim that Jesus taught Calvinism that I am not going to waste my time trying to prove He didn't, with all due respect to you.

Are you still trying to claim thatCalvin nased his theology on Gnostic sources, not the Scriptures?

have you even bother to read his institutes?

 

[Yeshua1]

I mean spell it out for him.... not me, I already agree.....or not/ your call.

Wouldn't matter!

he woukld just end up bringing in that the jews had a 'special hardening", or that we misunderstood what elect means, or that we have starined out all free will in order to make us robots!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wouldn't matter!

he woukld just end up bringing in that the jews had a 'special hardening", or that we misunderstood what elect means, or that we have starined out all free will in order to make us robots!

My dear friend & brother , this is not the place to fully refute all of these post conservative theologies, although it should be noted that each of these trends introduces serious doctrinal error, and in some cases even heresy. Our purpose here is to simply testify that they are exactly the kinds of doctrines that hold sway when Doctrines of Grace is set aside. That is to say that they minimize divine sovereignty by emphasizing human agency.

But it is not for us to drive home this message, it is for us to make disciples for Christ in our daily walks. It is up to the Pastors & Preachers to become the modern day Prophets spreading the word while we simple people labor in the field.

Here is one Ive found that sparks my interest. I would like to share this You Tube with you in the hope that you will also be encouraged by his work in the pulpit. Blessings to you & yours. :love2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6XJkNlAk9c

 

[Revmitchell]

That is to say that they minimize divine sovereignty by emphasizing human agency.

Be careful now that is not automatically a given.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Be careful now that is not automatically a given.

Its yours to prove....the floor is yours.

 

[Revmitchell]

Its yours to prove....the floor is yours.

So let me get this straight. Your position is that of someone is not a Calvinist then they "minimize divine sovereignty by emphasizing human agency." ?

Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So let me get this straight. Your position is that of someone is not a Calvinist then they "minimize divine sovereignty by emphasizing human agency." ?

Am I understanding you correctly?

Wait a minute....a moment ago you warned me to be careful....my statement is not always so. Clarify that commentary before we proceed.

Take your time....I got to go out of the house to run some errands. Will check back later.

 

[Revmitchell]

Wait a minute....a moment ago you warned me to be careful....my statement is not always so. Clarify that commentary before we proceed.

Take your time....I got to go out of the house to run some errands. Will check back later.

I am asking for clarification nothing more. If you can't give me that let me know.